Road purchase

W

WebBoard

Guest
From: Brett Watson


I recently bought a block of land that I hope to develop. Next door is an old road that is no longer in use. It is covered with trees and the only way I knew it was a road was buy the title document. It is not even in the street directory.
Who would own this land (Council or Vicroads?)and does anyone have any experience in purchasing old roads?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

WebBoard

Guest
Reply: 1
From: Craig Askings


IIRC it depends on the road.

But I do remember my uncle once leasing the land of a road/ right of way
for a nominal amount.

Craig.

propertyforum Listmanager wrote:

>From: "Brett Watson" <brett@breshi.com>
>
>I recently bought a block of land that I hope to develop. Next door is an old road that is no longer in use. It is covered with trees and the only way I knew it was a road was buy the title document. It is not even in the street directory.
>Who would own this land (Council or Vicroads?)and does anyone have any experience in purchasing old roads?
>
>
>
>To reply: mailto:propertyforum.26725@bne003w.webcentral.com.au
>To start a new topic: mailto:propertyforum@bne003w.webcentral.com.au
>To login: http://bne003w.webcentral.com.au:80/~wb013
>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reply: 2
From: Phillip Jacovelli


Brett,

...consider this

I'm no property solicitor, but if the block next to yours "appears" to be within your boundary and all the property is being utilised by you or the previous owner for a good number of years, ie the mature trees is your garden, and if there is no objection from your immediate neighbours etc etc. Talk to your solicitor about making an adverse possession claim for the so called road, and have it included as part of your title. If you have a case, it will cost you a few bucks, however I would presume a whole lot less than purchasing it. This procedure may take a good couple of years but what have you got to lose?

You could probably increase its development potential.

rgs

PJ
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

WebBoard

Guest
Reply: 2.1
From: A Jones


Heard of a legal matter once where a property developer had sold lots in a subdivision however had retained ownership of the road (which he then put gates on).

The buyers of the lots were effectively landlocked.

The owner of the road then negotiated with the Local Council to sell them the road (at an exorbitant cost).

I was wondering at the time how this situation could arise in the first place.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reply: 2.2
From: Simon H


Brett

I think Phillip has hit the nail on the head i am not a solicitor and i only know about NSW Land Titles but i would imagine that both states would be similar (we call it a Possessory Application 04ya)possible evidence required for your application may include...
.a statutory declaration from yourself (it could outline the fact that you use this piece of land, pay rates on it ? and generally maintain it).
.a stat dec from any person who can support your claim (neighbours?)
.a letter from the local council re payment of any rates
.a survey certificate re the definition of the affected land.

hope this helps

Simon H
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

WebBoard

Guest
Reply: 2.2.1
From: Brett Watson


Simon,
I'd love to be able to use this method but the problem I have is that we have just purchased the property ie. signed sale contract documents. We have not paid any rates on our block (yet) and I doubt if anyone has paid any rates on the road - It has no volume or folio nos.
We also have not maintained it nor has the previous owners.
Our new block is on the foreshore, we have new units developed on the left of us, the old road on the right of us and a shop on the other side of that - the rest is parkland. The road has obviously been disused for many years as it is covered with 4 metre tea trees.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reply: 2.2.1.1
From: Simon H


Brett

Perhaps you could try VIC Land Titles Office (if the council or VIC roads don't know who owns the road or can not identify it) hopefully they are the same as NSW and will have colored maps (CMA maps)that will define the road (they may be colour coded showing who owns them (one colour code for an authority) and have a plan number and or reference to title (most government departments don't seem to know exactly what land they own let alone where it is) this should help to find who owns it.

once found you could make an application to buy the unused road from them or at least rent it for a nominal amount if they will not sell and then try buying at a latter stage.
good luck

regards Simon H
:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reply: 2.2.1.1.1
From: Jakk Bass - The SLUM LORD


Ladies & Gentlemen,

Great strategy but just one problem, I am no solicitor but I have been down this track before.
It seems that there's this ridiculous law that makes the adverse possession laws not applicable against the crown.
Therefore I doubt this section of land/road could be obtained by adverse possession.
But don't take my word for it, give it a try, but my first point of call would be the local council to first determine ownership.

regards
Jakk

** Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do. - Bertrand Russell
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.1
From: Paul Zagoridis


I get to expose another character flaw that costs me money...

My fear would be "if I approach the council they might realise it's theirs!"

How do you find out who owns it without tipping the powers that be that you're interested?

Land Titles Office maybe?

I'd never approach the owner until I knew who owned it and what I wanted. Often that leads to inaction through analysis paralysis or fear. So I also set a deadline.

Paul Zag
Dreamspinner
The Oz Film Biz site is archived at...
http://wealthesteem.dyndns.org/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2
From: Asy .


Hi all,

Brett, Jakk is correct, adverse possession claims are not available against the crown.

Usually you can purchase these unused pieces of land at nominal prices, provided there are no uses in mind for the property. The council will be able to tell you who owns the property.

For those who are interested, adverse possession claims are only allowable based on the structures set out in the Adverse possession act: Basically the land must have been fenced to the exclusion of the whole world (including the true and legal owner) but accessed by the claimant for the last 15 years.

And, the True owner must not have acquiesced to the fencing.

I am working on a piece on adverse possession and compulsory easements for the Freestyler website, so stand by!

asy

"Don't forget what happened to the guy who suddenly got everything he ever wanted...
He lived happily ever after.
(Willy Wonka).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
W

WebBoard

Guest
Road purchase POOO!

Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2.1.1
From: Gee Cee Clay


Is it an old access lane for the days prior to septic or sewer systems.

Used for horse & cart or truck to gain access to old yard dunny.

Just a thought I had whilst changing nappies.

Gee POO Cee
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Road purchase POOO!

Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1
From: Kristine .


Brett

Remember KISS?

Simply go to the information counter at the municipal counter and ask how do you go about lodging an application to buy the road. If it is formally closed (glance through your local paper, or 'The Age' and you will be surprised how many 'Road Closure - Intention to Sell' notices there are), this will then simply be a matter of procedure.

However, it may not be a road, but a long, skinny shop site. But you won't know until you ask.

There is no need for skulduggery - this is quite common and if you can buy the land from the Council it won't cost you more than legals - which may be a few thousand, but not tens of thousands.

My parents applied to buy the 'night lane', which ran 150' down the boundary of their 200' deep property in Ivanhoe. The lane was 10' wide, and three neighbours backed onto it. None of the neighbours were interested to buy a piece of land 5' deep x the width of their block, and have to shift the fences, rearrange their gardens etc.

The council required that the neighbours be advised, with a certain stay of time in which to lodge any objections. However, for thirty years everyone had considered the lane part of our garden, and in due course it became so.

Thinking back, this cost about $1,000, edged through the process for about twelve months, then gently faded into oblivion.

good luck

Kristine
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Road purchase POOO!

Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1
From: Michele B


I'm currently claiming adverse possession on a piece of land in SA, a process made more interesting (and expensive) by the fact that it is still under the Old System and not the provisions of the RPA. I have to show that the subject area was fenced and attached exclusively to my land for a period of 15 plus 15 years. I can do this by obtaining stat decs from 'witnesses' or (I'm hoping) by obtaining aerial photographs of the site pre 1968. Photos of the fence posts might help - they look like the original redgum ones from the early 1900s.

Brett, even though it doesn't sound like you can claim adverse possession, your first step is establishing ownership as per the suggestions in the posts above. Then you can negotiate with the owner to buy it. It's very possible that your road is not council owned, though it may still be subject to the Road Opening and Closing Act etc. My little bit of 'crown' land, complete with public road, has been called 'RESERVE' on official maps for more than 70 years and the council think it's theirs - but no, it most definitely isn't!

michele
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Road purchase POOO!

Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1
From: Owen .


Has anyone tried this 'adverse possession' process with the NSW State Rail or City Rail or whatever they are called now?

When we bought our first home the title search revealed that the railways owned about 1 metre of our backyard. The back fence sits on top of a tall retaining wall that drops down to a railway line. I called the railways at the time and after about 30 transfers I got hold of a guy who said that all the properties on my side of the street were in the same situation. I asked about purchasing it and the response was that I could get a survey done and probably buy it but as far as he was concerned we never had this conversation and the land was mine to use. 12 years later I'm still using it.

Admittedly it the top of a wall and the chances of the railways ever needing access to it is remote (a bit different to a road or reserve) but I was wondering if the same process would apply in this case?

Owen

"Gambling promises the poor what property performs for the rich – something for nothing"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Road purchase POOO!

Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Stirling Reid


Some councils in SA have a way of obtaining ownership of small parcels of land with an unknown owner, when they find out about them.
They simply start charging rates and when after a couple of years the rates are overdue, they take possession to recover the rates due.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Road purchase POOO!

Reply: 2.2.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1.1
From: Michele B


SR
Yes, councils are finding some very creative ways to boost revenue - many are now rating 'lettable areas' within a single dwelling, and I've even heard (don't laugh) that ACC rate the individual work stations of lawyers operating as sole practitioners within some city buildings.

michele
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top