Roy Morgan: Unemployment at record high 4Q14

[hematite]

These days i think people can get ahead much quicker by avoiding university and getting a trade and jumping straight into the work force. Instead of racking up a 20k debt and missing out on 4 years of the workforce you can get a trade, (earn money while getting a qualification) and still be on a similar salary to someone with a standard degree. Im referring to more common place degrees like bachelor of commerce and arts etc, becoming doctors/lawyers etc is a different scenario but in general i think university is overrated.

As far as I know, the money one gets paid as an apprentice is very little. So I wouldn't think that is a major drawcard. In WA, tradies have been lucky as they have been able to earn 180K + in construction work up north (although on horrible rosters). Yes, this is a lot, but to be honest, a large chunk of my commerce friends are in their mid to late twenties and earning 150-300k in IB/PE/HF despite the 'down turn.' We all have anecdotal evidence as to what is best to study and it depends on your background. In the end, you need to make a choice that is suitable for yourself. Most degrees offer a decent career path if you achieve at the upper end (i.e. work hard). The problem is when people just get passes, and/or have no idea how to apply for a job.

A 20k debt is nothing when you consider that a degree is for life and helps with many other things (like if you want to study further, move countries etc). My degree is has been the highest yielding investment I have made so far (although I haven't made any big property deals).

I can't say anything for those that did poorly at university and ended up working at small firms, or those that studied arts though.

Blair, what did you study at university in order to make that opinion that it is overrated? I have to say, some subjects seem overrated, such as the ethics/professional conduct ones, however I think it's definitely something for people to learn.

 

[Blair007]

As far as I know, the money one gets paid as an apprentice is very little. So I wouldn't think that is a major drawcard. In WA, tradies have been lucky as they have been able to earn 180K + in construction work up north (although on horrible rosters). Yes, this is a lot, but to be honest, a large chunk of my commerce friends are in their mid to late twenties and earning 150-300k in IB/PE/HF despite the 'down turn.' We all have anecdotal evidence as to what is best to study and it depends on your background. In the end, you need to make a choice that is suitable for yourself. Most degrees offer a decent career path if you achieve at the upper end (i.e. work hard). The problem is when people just get passes, and/or have no idea how to apply for a job.

A 20k debt is nothing when you consider that a degree is for life and helps with many other things (like if you want to study further, move countries etc). My degree is has been the highest yielding investment I have made so far (although I haven't made any big property deals).

I can't say anything for those that did poorly at university and ended up working at small firms, or those that studied arts though.

Blair, what did you study at university in order to make that opinion that it is overrated? I have to say, some subjects seem overrated, such as the ethics/professional conduct ones, however I think it's definitely something for people to learn.

the average commerce degree does not get you no where near 150-300k

the average trade can get you more than an average commerce degree without any debt from study fees plus a small, but still decent kickstart from apprentice wages.

i didn't go to university. i did an electrical trade. I've been able to save what most people would have in debt from university fees by the time i completed my trade. and now I'm getting very good money as a qualified electrician. I'm not experienced or better than the rest of the sparkies out there, its just not hard to find a good paying job compared to what it is with a run of the mill uni degree. Ive worked hard, and happy with what i have accomplished at my age but if i had of gone down the path of university i don't think i could have got to where i am today without working 10x harder.

im not knocking university it has its good points. but i just don't understand why someone would want to do a standard bachelor of commerce or bachelor of arts, rack up 20k debt and then enter the workforce with an income earning capacity of less than or equal to a trade. the people you are talking about that earn 150k-300k are special cases, just like there are people in any industry that have the skills to stand out from the rest or are in the right place in the right time.

 

[hematite]

the average commerce degree does not get you no where near 150-300k

the average trade can get you more than an average commerce degree without any debt from study fees plus a small, but still decent kickstart from apprentice wages.

i didn't go to university. i did an electrical trade. I've been able to save what most people would have in debt from university fees by the time i completed my trade. and now I'm getting very good money as a qualified electrician. I'm not experienced or better than the rest of the sparkies out there, its just not hard to find a good paying job compared to what it is with a run of the mill uni degree. Ive worked hard, and happy with what i have accomplished at my age but if i had of gone down the path of university i don't think i could have got to where i am today without working 10x harder.

im not knocking university it has its good points. but i just don't understand why someone would want to do a standard bachelor of commerce or bachelor of arts, rack up 20k debt and then enter the workforce with an income earning capacity of less than or equal to a trade. the people you are talking about that earn 150k-300k are special cases, just like there are people in any industry that have the skills to stand out from the rest or are in the right place in the right time.

The fact that you don't understand, shows that it definitely wasn't for you. I wouldn't compare an arts degree to a commerce degree, as one is quote vocational and industry focused (commerce) and the other (arts) is pretty broad and not so geared towards providing you specific skills to work in industry. You are right, the average commerce grad gets a lot less, but most people 5 years out of uni in commerce would be in 6 figures or close to it. I would guess the average tradie would be on similar wages. How much do apprentices get per year? I think WA would be a bit higher for wages (as it is in most cases), however it would be good to have some comparable. A commerce grad has 12 hours a week of class time, and if you add another 12 on top for home study, you still have a fair bit of time to work.

That's great that you have saved money, I think it's a skill that despite how much you earn, it's the discipline of saving that gets you ahead. I see you mentioned that uni grads would be in debt by the tune of 20k when they graduated. Whilst any saving is good, I don't see a saving of 20k to be material when viewing your whole life ahead. Would you say the wages you earn are typical of your other fellow sparkies?

My friends are not special, but they did work hard, just like yourself.Your point about not understanding why people go to university shows that it depends on where your skills lie, and what you want to achieve in your life. In the end, it depends what you want to do. Each pathway has it's benefits, and if you simply care what you earn in your first five years out of training (be it in a trade or university), I personally think that's a short sighted view, because the salary ceiling is quite high in commercial fields (and others also) - and there are also a multitude of other factors to consider such as lifestyle, mobility, what you enjoy, whether you find it stimulating and challenging, how you view your contribution to your role, your job satisfaction etc.

P.s. What do you think is the 'average commerce salary'? And what would be the average electricians salary coming out of training?

 

[Blair007]

The fact that you don't understand, shows that it definitely wasn't for you. I wouldn't compare an arts degree to a commerce degree, as one is quote vocational and industry focused (commerce) and the other (arts) is pretty broad and not so geared towards providing you specific skills to work in industry. You are right, the average commerce grad gets a lot less, but most people 5 years out of uni in commerce would be in 6 figures or close to it. I would guess the average tradie would be on similar wages. How much do apprentices get per year? I think WA would be a bit higher for wages (as it is in most cases), however it would be good to have some comparable. A commerce grad has 12 hours a week of class time, and if you add another 12 on top for home study, you still have a fair bit of time to work.

That's great that you have saved money, I think it's a skill that despite how much you earn, it's the discipline of saving that gets you ahead. I see you mentioned that uni grads would be in debt by the tune of 20k when they graduated. Whilst any saving is good, I don't see a saving of 20k to be material when viewing your whole life ahead. Would you say the wages you earn are typical of your other fellow sparkies?

My friends are not special, but they did work hard, just like yourself.Your point about not understanding why people go to university shows that it depends on where your skills lie, and what you want to achieve in your life. In the end, it depends what you want to do. Each pathway has it's benefits, and if you simply care what you earn in your first five years out of training (be it in a trade or university), I personally think that's a short sighted view, because the salary ceiling is quite high in commercial fields (and others also) - and there are also a multitude of other factors to consider such as lifestyle, mobility, what you enjoy, whether you find it stimulating and challenging, how you view your contribution to your role, your job satisfaction etc.

P.s. What do you think is the 'average commerce salary'? And what would be the average electricians salary coming out of training?

i wasn't comparing arts and commerce degrees, i was just saying they are both stock standard degrees. sure there are many people out there that will get there commerce degree, work hard and do well for themselves earning a good 6 figure salary. for the most part though i think these standard degrees don't really get you into a better position for there cost and time.

the people with commerce degrees that earn high incomes earn it because of there drive and motivation, they could most likely get there without the degree.

obviously trades aren't for everyone but i just think that a standard trade is in a better position than a person with a standard degree. the same income if not slightly better, in high demand for work, flexibility, easier to relocate etc.

i know the ability to save as an apprentice and be debt free once becoming qualified may not seem like a big deal in the bigger picture, but when you think of it, becoming qualified and having 20k savings vs 20k debt is a pretty good headstart. a 40k difference might not be much when you have a few properties where you can just pull out equity gains, but when your starting out i think being 40k ahead is a lot.

i know I'm biased but i still think i have some valid points.

cheers
blair

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

Degrees don't 'get' you anything, they open doors. There are no guarantees.

I would say my undergraduate degree has helped me open doors that I never could have opened on my own.

When I graduated in 1998 I had a HECS debt of $13k. These days I earn that in half a month. A very worthwhile investment in my case.

 

[Freckle]

Degrees don't 'get' you anything, they open doors. There are no guarantees.

Absolutely. Higher education gives you options that don't have income ceilings. You can be a CEO if you have the drive and stamina or push a broom if you wish. But without higher education your only option out of income limitation is self employment and the failure rate is high 80%+.

Success in life is about positioning and option building. Everyone will have a different view on that based around their personal preferences. I have highly qualified and very clever friends who prefer a plot of land and would rather live a subsistence lifestyle than the too and fro of a professional life. Others I know thrive in the corporate hustle and bustle.

 

[Angel]

Please remember that most trades do not pay big money. Electrical, plumbing and mining does, but Elizabeth, Ipswich, Logan and Mt Druitt house people on $45K.

 

[HeadsOnBeds]

I don't know many tradies over 35 who don't want to change jobs. Particularly with retirement age going to 67 and perhaps to 70. Sparkies and plumbers may be ok but brickies, carpenters, etc. I did an IT degree, I only used it for 10 years but it set me up very nicely in the property game.

 

[2FAST4U]

Doing good for yourself? I hope that didn't make it to your CV I'm fortunate in that I can't understand what you've been through, but I can empathise with how frustrating that must have seemed. Did you look at moving locations?

I actually did re-locate to Sydney; however, the opportunities in Sydney were only marginally better so I moved back to Adelaide. As far as commerce is concerned people need to accept that you need 3 years under your belt + CA/CPA before you will come anywhere near a decent wage.

Salary as a commerce grad is typically:

40k-50k as a grad
60k-70k after 3 years
100k after 7 years

Obviously salaries will deviate depending on the individual and what kind of firm they work in (small firms will pay minimum wage) but that's a rough ball park figure anyway.

 

[Freckle]

Please remember that most trades do not pay big money. Electrical, plumbing and mining does, but Elizabeth, Ipswich, Logan and Mt Druitt house people on $45K.

Oldest lad was the proverbial headache at school. Barely 2 years highschool and then lived on the streets for 3 years. Managed to get him into a mechanics apprenticeship at Hunter Holden in Sydney. He lasted 2 1/2 years before pulling the pin. $6.30/hr starting wage and by the time he dumped it 8.50. The wksp forman was on $18/hr after 20 yrs in the game. It must be the worst trade there is money wise.

He now works cranes and rigging on shutdown in WA and pushing for a spot on a rig. The timing hasn't worked out too crash hot with the oil bust but that's life.

 

[BayView]

The wksp forman was on $18/hr after 20 yrs in the game. It must be the worst trade there is money wise.

My mechanic is 57 and has been a mechanic for about 40 years.

He is on $23.50 per hour now.

For a really good and experienced mechanic, the going rate is around that and maybe up to about $25 per hour. I've no doubt that some are getting more in specialist areas such as racing teams, or maybe higher-end service centres (a Lamborghini Dealershiip mechanic for example).

It is quite pathetic, really, but I cannot afford to pay him much more than this - unless I put up the workshop hourly rate - currently at $96 plus GST.

But, the customers of the industry want to pay nothing for their cars to get fixed, and I constantly get whinging from new customers who come to us - about how disgruntled they are with what the dealerships charge....they are coming over to us to get cheaper repairs and services in many cases.

Dealerships charge out their labour at about $140 per hour at least and more these days, and everyone whines and moans about that, but no-one thinks twice about the local GP charging $70 for a 10 min consultation (the public don't care because Medicare foots a large chunk of our out of pocket GP bills).

I have no doubt that a decent number of our customers think we are too expensive as well. I had one lady who came for a service last week, and her bill was $212.40. She complained about the cost.

Her previous service - almost 2 years ago to the day - was $4 less; $208.40.

This is the sort of frogshidd that the industry is full of.

I can see massive problems looming in the industry - no one wants to be a mechanic anymore due to the cr@p they have to put up with and the terrible wages, and no one wants to pay to have their car serviced or repaired.

 

[sandyfeet]

what ever happened to the freckle?

 

[Deltaberry]

Became CEO

 

[coastal]

what ever happened to the freckle?

He has gone back to the other PI forum lol

 

[BayView]

Here she is. Some good news:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-12/anz-job-ads-rise-for-seventh-month/6012224

How do they know that because a job is advertised it means that employment is on the improve?

It could simply mean folks have left that position, and they are advertising to refill it - not ad another position to their current lot.