Selling Privately

I guess if you don't think there is any skill involved in selling or buying houses, then you would see it this way.
There are many things that we think we could do better than someone who is trained and experienced, just to save money, but its quite likely that for many of us its a false economy, because the result will not be up to scratch..... i would see that selling RE privately is often like that.
It may look like its an easy thing to do, based on some hyped article on the internet, but I think its a different matter when you actually go and do it yourself.
Unless you have the right property at the right price in the right market, and also have the right personality to sell it, and a willingness to negotiate sensibly, I dont think it will work.
I find it interesting that you are more willing to take advice from an internet article in a completely different market than seasoned investors from the market you are in.
To me, this indicates that you may well not be able to manage the process of negotiating with buyers who often don't see the value in a property that you may well think is fantastic.
But if you are committed to it, go ahead and see if it works......
Pen

Firstly, I didn't say that agents have no skills. They do, it's just that they aren't really for the benefit of the vendor first and foremost. They are skills that assist the agent in his/her business, which is to collect as many commission payments as possible. That's why almost all training is geared towards the listing process and not the selling process. It's a fact. Yes, there is also some training in the art of negotiating or what I like to call price mediation. Look up “mediation” and see if that doesn’t better describe what agents actually do.

You say that you need the right property... Right for whom? Me? You? Joe Blow? Investor? Family? Young? Old? Location? Rich? Poor?

Every property is right for the right buyer. You will not hear an agent on this planet say otherwise. If you have a dump that needs doing up, then it is the right property for renovators, for instance. There is no such thing as the right property. Also you will be hard pushed to find an agent who advises you not to list because of "market conditions".

I am not arguing the case for selling privately simply based on one set of statistics form a survey (commissioned by an agents body) that happens do be on the Internet alone. I think agents here will recognise that my arguments are probably based on some level of experience and insight other than just an Internet article, hyped or otherwise.:rolleyes: (And no, I will not participate in a game of 20 questions.)

The stats I was quoting are in my opinion accurate in the US context, given who commissioned the survey, and I believe that apart from volume they would also be accurate here. I simply wanted to draw attention to a wholly feasible alternative to the “somewhat” costly and mostly unsatisfactory practice (I’m sure that Real Estate Institutes around the country would know exactly just how unsatisfactory in percentage terms) of using an agent to sell your property. I am also pointing out that there is no logically valid reason that, if done properly, you can’t sell your property yourself in any market condition as long as there aren’t any practical restraints such as distance, multiple interests etc.

Agents will also say they are trained in the legal aspects of a property sale. Yes, they are to a point, but they are far from qualified legal practitioners and their training would be better be described as “authorised” to complete certain aspects of the standard offer documents. I don’t believe that their authorisation extends to providing any legal advice whatsoever. I’m sure that any legal practitioners here would agree (and please confirm) that the levels of legal “qualifications” agents need are rudimentary at best and certainly are not a strong safeguard against any potential legal problems. If you factor in possible incompetence from an already low base of legal capacity required by agents then the potential danger of legal complications are even more prominent.

On the other hand if you are selling privately, all legal matters need to be handled by both the sellers and buyers solicitors in the first instance, thus negating any potential legal complications from the very start and providing confidence in the process. From a legal standpoint it is therefore actually much safer to sell privately than through an agent with mere lay qualifications and possibly only a dubious grasp to boot. And remember, the legal costs are the same either way.

Agents prefer to focus on price; private sellers prefer to focus on features and are far better equipped to point them out in detail and with authority. As a buyer you are looking for and buying features. Agents will actively compare your property with others and use your property to sell another. Is that acting in your interest at all times, as required by law? Please, dear agents, tell me hand on heart you have never done and never do this! You do it everyday, right? I forgive you, oh mighty agents, but lets call a spade a spade, ok? So as a vendor you have agents walking around your property telling buyers who knows what and to what end. Is this a comforting thought, knowing that your friendly agent isn’t always acting in your best interest as promised and required by law? I suppose you should then feel grateful when it’s your turn to be compared favourably against some other poor souls property.

Is this really the best, most cost effective way to sell your property? The answer is clearly: "No"! But it’s the way it is and we are constantly encouraged to forgive and look the other way for the sake of perceived convenience. And who likes to admit that they are submitting to being deceived because the alternative has been painted as just to difficult to manage. Better then to defend the practice than to look and feel foolish…

I think most of us here know full well that these few examples I have cited are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of scenarios showing how agents are not acting in the best interest of us vendors as a matter of course. It’s not really their fault, because the true nature of their role doesn’t really allow for them to in fact act in a vendor’s interest at all time as is required unless they want to go hungry. But should you feel compelled to support their choice of occupation by subsidising it out of your own pocket?

I am in property to make a profit and I am interested in lowering any costs associated with doing business effectively. Others here might be in property investments for other reasons… Giving agents huge sums of money to do a job that uses industry practices based on a systemically flawed model, which is inherently unable to serve my/your best interests, doesn’t seem to me to be a particularly rational or cost effective way to do business. Oh, and good on you if you read the whole post!:D
 
All I can say is that you haven't met the right agent yet.
The agent I try to use to do all my sales is totally the opposite to the person you try to portray as the "average agent".
I would never try to sell my own properties myself. All of my reasons why have been listed in previous posts and if you can't understand them, which it doesn't seem you do, then there is no point in repeating them here.

YOUR generalisations don't match my agent and I would hope there are a lot of agents that they don't match either. Bad luck if any of you choose the wrong agent though by the looks of things.

Good luck selling your own places yourself, it's a false economy!!

Gools
 
I am with Gools on this as well. I know a lot of agents and most of them do the right thing. There are always agents I would avoid, but they are in the minority.

That doesn't mean I would not rather have the commission money in my pocket, but I do believe that trying to sell my own house or using one of the agents I respect and trust, I will get more money with the agent.

Just out of interest, I have seen a number of shows that profile owners filmed trying to sell the good points of their houses (usually English shows, but Australian versions as well - Andrew Winter's Selling Houses comes immediately to mind) where the owners downplay and down sell their own properties. They are filmed trying to sell the good points, and it is embarrassing to watch them trying to do it. I also would be very uncomfortable dealing directly with the owner because I would be ambarrassed to say what I don't like about THEIR home. A bit like telling somebody you just met that their fly is open.

Maybe I am just lucky that I know and have dealt with many good agents.
 
All I can say is that you haven't met the right agent yet.
The agent I try to use to do all my sales is totally the opposite to the person you try to portray as the "average agent".
I would never try to sell my own properties myself. All of my reasons why have been listed in previous posts and if you can't understand them, which it doesn't seem you do, then there is no point in repeating them here.

YOUR generalisations don't match my agent and I would hope there are a lot of agents that they don't match either. Bad luck if any of you choose the wrong agent though by the looks of things.

Good luck selling your own places yourself, it's a false economy!!

Gools

Seeing as you haven't addressed any of my points in specific I suggest you re-read my post. Your objections are more general and based on your feelings about the concept rather any points I made. If you are happy to fork out money, then that's fine. Really it is! But that is your personal way or habit and doesn't really address the fundamental problem of inherent conflict of interest the industry as it stands is subject to. I am not saying that all agents are bad people on a personal level or that none try and act as ethical as possible within the flawed model. Some are simply less unethical than others and they are all forced to not always act in the best interest of individual vendors.
So unless you are present at every inspection you have absolutely zero knowledge as to what is being said and implied. Every buyer is made to feel special...

You can dress this thing up anyway you want. Agents are supposed to ALWAYS act in the vendors best interest and it is simply unreasonable to actually expect that. It's simply not possible as long as an agent has comparable properties listed.

Hey, you obviously lack the confidence in you own abilities to sell yourself, so my advice would be for you to go with agent. That's fine, but it still doesn't mean that there is any logical reason that would prevent you from selling yourself, provided you do it properly. I am not advocating doing it improperly, on a shoestring or on the internet alone. Quite the opposite, as then you really are doomed to fail. So if you can't be bothered to get advice, do a little work, and generally approach the task with success in mind, for heavens sake don't do it.

You can point endlessly to fsbo failures and cite them as proof that the concept doesn't work. But it is only evidence that doing incorrectly doesn't work. It would be like saying agents don't work because they keep dropping their price or auctions don't work because properties get passed in etc etc. It's not very scientific or accurate or indeed evidence of any value at all. It is simply a perception possibly re-enforced by bias. Then it goes on to become folklore and we all like to believe uncomplicated versions of events.
 
here is a reply you can quote - that is about the biggest load of bollocks i have heard in years...

i WILL give you points for thinking that through though - i am not going to respond to your individual issues because there are far too many of them...moreover, you are requiring everyone to respond to your points but you make a whole heap of claims there without providing evidence to respond to...especially about agent training and motivations and abilities.

you dislike agents - we get that...you want to sell privately - go for your life, i couldn't care less...but your posts are starting to reflect another person with a chip on their shoulder with agents...you just lump them all into the same basket and call them dodgy or under qualified, self-serving etc etc etc...

people on this forum used to be open minded...seems more and more they just make sweeping generalisations and push their barrows...sigh...
 
here is a reply you can quote - that is about the biggest load of bollocks i have heard in years...

i WILL give you points for thinking that through though - i am not going to respond to your individual issues because there are far too many of them...moreover, you are requiring everyone to respond to your points but you make a whole heap of claims there without providing evidence to respond to...especially about agent training and motivations and abilities.

you dislike agents - we get that...you want to sell privately - go for your life, i couldn't care less...but your posts are starting to reflect another person with a chip on their shoulder with agents...you just lump them all into the same basket and call them dodgy or under qualified, self-serving etc etc etc...

people on this forum used to be open minded...seems more and more they just make sweeping generalisations and push their barrows...sigh...

Unlike your selfless post, with it's detailed rebuttals...

So you think that by me suggesting another way of doing things I am not being open minded...? Hmmm, I suppose that would make sense to at least someone out there.

Sweeping statements, eh? I notice you aren't taking the opportunity to dispute many of my points, other than a bit of a carpet bomb, and you and I both know why that is, don't we? But hey, if you change your mind, I'll be happy to see you justify your arguments. With an open mind, I promise!

I know you agents hate being challenged and usually like to throw everything but the kitchen sink at anyone pointing out the glaringly obvious problems and practices that are routinely employed, and again, I don't blame you for defending your livelihood or even think you are bad, evil, nasty or whatever else. Some of my best friends are, or have been agents.:) I am not attacking you on a moral level, but I am pointing out what's behind the bravado. I know it's not particularly pleasant and you feel exposed, but trying to discredit me isn't going to change what actually transpires behind the scenes.

For those who simply can't be bothered to sell privatley, this thread isn't for you. And agents, you really don't need to run interference as you will just be further exposed because you are on shaky ground as is and I for one will debate you. Not hate you, debate you, ok? But go for your life, if you think your arguments can't be toppled. We could then all learn something, which is always a good thing.

Hands up those who want to save BIG BUCKS by not paying commission!?

Ok, now lets talk about the best way to achieve this effectively, practically. Lets all learn something. Lets ignore the flat, "it can't be done", "it doesn't work", "I wouldn't do it" and other such useless statements and talk about HOW it has been. or should be done successfully, avoiding pitfalls, what help is available, etc etc. Let's talk about achieving success, not wallowing in other's past mistakes and failures. Learn from them, yes. Repeat them, no!

Lets have an open mind...
 
ok lets get all the real estate agents together and let you in on all the methods that help them sell properties!!

That's the way! And good on you for refraining from stooping to puerile and snide comments. What an excellent and positive suggestion.

You have the floor.
 
oh brother...again, you haven't given any real reasons for your barbs - you just fire shots across the bow and want a response - give me specifics and i will happily respond to you.

please point out where i said it can't be done...or it doesn't work etc. It is very much an option for many people. My problem is with those who try to tell the world that it is the best and only way to go...there are several options for sellers and they all will suit different people. Saving a few grand of commission is a waste if you suck at negotiation and get a low price - sadly i have seen it happen in my area - but if you are good at it - go for it!! i am happy for you.

i give out a Private Sellers Assistance Kit to everyone in my area who is selling privately - no strings, no attempt to pinch a listing, i just believe in doing everything i can to help people in whatever capacity i can...if something i have learnt in my role as an agent can better help them get a result then beauty!! maybe they will tell someone i am a good bloke...maybe not - either way i am comfortable knowing that i may have been able to help them! that may be hard for you to believe because i apparently have some hidden agenda and i am supposed to be full of bravado and hate being exposed...exposed for what??????????????????


anytime you want to question my motives or beleifs, feel free - i am more than willing to give you an honest answer on any question you may have.

i mean that genuinely...i am not out to discredit you or your beleifs - I just wish you would stop the general agent bashing without checking with those of us who are on this forum and want to help out with what we have learned.

i too want a good discussion on this - i DO beleive in private sales and will help anyone who wants to do it.

SO, feel free to ask me any question you like - you have my word that it will be an honest answer.
 
Firstly, I didn't say that agents have no skills. They do, it's just that they aren't really for the benefit of the vendor first and foremost. WRONG; You are forgetting the skill of the Salesman which is first and foremost. You will not get your foot in the door without it. NO SALESMAN would be any good without it: Public relations. They are skills that assist the agent in his/her business, which is to collect as many commission payments as possible. That's why almost all training is geared towards the listing process and not the selling process. It's a fact. Yes, there is also some training in the art of negotiating or what I like to call price mediation. Look up “mediation” and see if that doesn’t better describe what agents actually do.

You say that you need the right property... Right for whom? Me? You? Joe Blow? Investor? Family? Young? Old? Location? Rich? Poor?

Every property is right for the right buyer. You will not hear an agent on this planet say otherwise. If you have a dump that needs doing up, then it is the right property for renovators, for instance. There is no such thing as the right property. Also you will be hard pushed to find an agent who advises you not to list because of "market conditions". I HAVE HAD THREE AGENTS TELL ME IT IS A BAD TIME FOR SELLERS.
I am not arguing the case for selling privately simply based on one set of statistics form a survey (commissioned by an agents body) that happens do be on the Internet alone. I think agents here will recognise that my arguments are probably based on some level of experience and insight other than just an Internet article, hyped or otherwise.:rolleyes: (And no, I will not participate in a game of 20 questions.)

The stats I was quoting are in my opinion accurate in the US context, given who commissioned the survey, and I believe that apart from volume they would also be accurate here. I simply wanted to draw attention to a wholly feasible alternative to the “somewhat” costly and mostly unsatisfactory practice (I’m sure that Real Estate Institutes around the country would know exactly just how unsatisfactory in percentage terms) of using an agent to sell your property. I am also pointing out that there is no logically valid reason that, if done properly, you can’t sell your property yourself in any market condition as long as there aren’t any practical restraints such as distance, multiple interests etc. CORRECT...TO A POINT. depends how much you want to sell it for....
Agents will also say they are trained in the legal aspects of a property sale. NEVE HEARD THIS ONCE...i HAVE BOUGHT OVER A DOZEN PROPERTIES. Yes, they are to a point, but they are far from qualified legal practitioners and their training would be better be described as “authorised” to complete certain aspects of the standard offer documents. I don’t believe that their authorisation extends to providing any legal advice whatsoever. I’m sure that any legal practitioners here would agree (and please confirm) that the levels of legal “qualifications” agents need are rudimentary at best and certainly are not a strong safeguard against any potential legal problems. If you factor in possible incompetence from an already low base of legal capacity required by agents then the potential danger of legal complications are even more prominent. The selling document is a legal contract within itself. Nothing is signed until the Solicitor looks it over, whether it's you or the agent sending it to the Solicitor, this point is useless.
On the other hand if you are selling privately, all legal matters need to be handled by both the sellers and buyers solicitors in the first instance, thus negating any potential legal complications from the very start and providing confidence in the process. From a legal standpoint it is therefore actually much safer to sell privately than through an agent with mere lay qualifications and possibly only a dubious grasp to boot. And remember, the legal costs are the same either way.

Agents prefer to focus on price; CORRECT private sellers prefer to focus on features THAT is so far from the truth that I prefer not to swear. and are far better equipped to point them out in detail and with authority. As a buyer you are looking for and buying features. YES......and price....Agents will actively compare your property with others and use your property to sell another. WRONG WRONG WRONG, this is not always the case. But if it is....SO WHAT? I don't understyand the problem or is it a moral one??:confused:Is that acting in your interest at all times, as required by law? Please, dear agents, tell me hand on heart you have never done and never do this! You do it everyday, right? I forgive you, oh mighty agents, but lets call a spade a spade, ok? So as a vendor you have agents walking around your property telling buyers who knows what and to what end. For Goodness Sake they want to sell it and you have the final say...what do you mean? Is this a comforting thought, knowing that your friendly agent isn’t always acting in your best interest as promised and required by law? I suppose you should then feel grateful when it’s your turn to be compared favourably against some other poor souls property. Let me ask you- How often have you actually SOLD a property?
Is this really the best, most cost effective way to sell your property? The answer is clearly: "No"! YES_ Sometimes - why does someone that can afford a Mercedes not buy a FORD? But it’s the way it is and we are constantly encouraged to forgive and look the other way for the sake of perceived convenience. And who likes to admit that they are submitting to being deceived because the alternative has been painted as just to difficult to manage. Better then to defend the practice than to look and feel foolish… Who is being deceived? I think you have been bitten maybe quite hard?

I think most of us here know full well that these few examples I have cited are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of scenarios showing how agents are not acting in the best interest of us vendors as a matter of course. It’s not really their fault, because the true nature of their role doesn’t really allow for them to in fact act in a vendor’s interest at all time as is required unless they want to go hungry. But should you feel compelled to support their choice of occupation by subsidising it out of your own pocket?

I am in property to make a profit and I am interested in lowering any costs associated with doing business effectively. Others here might be in property investments for other reasons… Giving agents huge sums of money to do a job that uses industry practices based on a systemically flawed model, which is inherently unable to serve my/your best interests, doesn’t seem to me to be a particularly rational or cost effective way to do business. Oh, and good on you if you read the whole post!:D

Hmmmm, well I hope I have answered your statements. I do admit there are some dodgy agents, but 85-90% of the time, I have had the good ones. Maybe you sold in Surfers Paradise? Plenty of nasties around up there.

Regards JO
 
Hands up those who want to save BIG BUCKS by not paying commission!?
Here's a hand up... Personally, I wouldn't attempt to sell property privately - I am happy to pay an agent their negotiated commission on the property sale. Some people may be good at it but I am not one.

There are good agents and bad agents; there are good doctors and bad doctors; there are good teachers and bad teachers; there are good police and bad police; there are people who are good and selling property privately and those who are not so good - The point is, you shouldn't generalise and lump all agents into the same barrel.

You may have a certain view of agents and specifically look for the bad traits in them - It is called conditioning.
 
Please answer

Hey my first post, I just wanted to comment on this great thread...a good read!

I've sold property by myself...it's not rocket science :confused:

I've found that buyers are kind when they deal directly with seller's because the transaction becomes more personal (I know when I need to buy a property and have to deal with an agent it kinda gives me a licence to be a little more than cheeky), there is a reason real estate agents are always on the top of the most despised 'professions'

To the real estate agents and the people who say 'it cant be done' with out even trying and dismissing it right away, can someone please answer this question so I can rest...

But when you take the contract activities out of the sales process (which belong to solicitors anyway), what is the difference between selling your car privately and selling your property privately? Because i found them to be exactly the same thing, only that 95% of people sell cars privately while 95% sell their properties through an agent, its something I cannot wrap my head around, can someone please enlighten me? How are those commissions justified?
 
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