Shared housing in Brisbane - how many unrelated people are allowed?

[kennyboi]

Hi,

I just like to ask if anyone know the answer to this.

A property I am interested in has been approved for 6 unrelated occupants between 2000-2009 and currently leased out room by room on 6 of its rooms. Does this old limit still applies, or the new limit of 5 now applies?

If the 6 limit still applies, can it be transferred up on a sale to the new owner?

My recent phone inquiry to the council seems to suggest 5. They said approval is for change of building class from 1a to 1b, the limit is the current which applies to class 1b. But the selling agent told me she is confident it should be 6.

Thanks

 

[wylie]

I think your selling agent might be telling you what she thinks you want to hear.

I believe it is five.

 

[RPI]

Hi,

I just like to ask if anyone know the answer to this.

A property I am interested in has been approved for 6 unrelated occupants between 2000-2009 and currently leased out room by room on 6 of its rooms. Does this old limit still applies, or the new limit of 5 now applies?

If the 6 limit still applies, can it be transferred up on a sale to the new owner?

My recent phone inquiry to the council seems to suggest 5. They said approval is for change of building class from 1a to 1b, the limit is the current which applies to class 1b. But the selling agent told me she is confident it should be 6.

Thanks

If it is rented out by the room they are technically in breach of Council regulations anyway, unless it is already classified as a multi-unit dwelling - hostel. Also some others like Boarding House but that would be pre 2000.

They may have fire regulation approval though.

If there are individual agreements with the tenants then this is a considered non domestic arrangement and can not be classified as a house.

Does it happen in Brisbane a lot- Yes.

Have you got a leg to stand on if Council gets a complaint and you get an Enforcement Notice- No.

I am running a large case in the Planning and Environment Court on behalf of numerous tenants on this at present. Part of our arguments are on the definitions of domestic, household, discrete, several etc in relation to renting to different individuals in a house versus classification of Multi-Unit Dwelling. If we have a win what I said above may change, but for now I would be nervous about buying a property that I may only be able to rent out to one group of people in the future.

D

 

[kennyboi]

The agent just sent me a document from "thepod" saying it is 6 pre-2009 attached, but I am still not confident about this.

 

[Perp]

My recent phone inquiry to the council seems to suggest 5. They said approval is for change of building class from 1a to 1b, the limit is the current which applies to class 1b. But the selling agent told me she is confident it should be 6.

So the building has approval for change of building class? What date is the approval? The agent may be arguing that the relevant date is the construction date, but it's not; it's the date of the building class change being approved.

 

[RPI]

The building can have 5 unrelated people living there but it is the nature of the 5 people living there. They must be a group of individuals, a household group or a domestic group. If a group of individuals come to you to rent that is one thing, if you or the property manager rent to them separately they are distinct individuals, not a group of individuals.

 

[Perp]

Does it happen in Brisbane a lot- Yes.

Surely this is an ironclad defence, right?

Or "but the real estate agent I bought it through told me that I could"?

(Not directed at kennyboi - who obviously is trying to get his ducks in a row - but at a phenomenon we're all familiar with.)

 

[Perp]

I am involved with litigation with quite a number of real estate agents wish they hadn't told the purchasers could do something similar, probably not as much as their insurer wishes they hadn't.

Whilst I'm sure their insurers would rather not have the expense of defending the agents, I'd be surprised if this kind of defence would stack up unless there was deception in written materials, such as pamphlets.

Or were the agents dumb enough to commit bad advice to paper?

 

[RPI]

Whilst I'm sure their insurers would rather not have the expense of defending the agents, I'd be surprised if this kind of defence would stack up unless there was deception in written materials, such as pamphlets.

Or were the agents dumb enough to commit bad advice to paper?

Brochures, websites, internet portals you name it. It is not normally the real estate agent's fault, as they are just not aware the use is not lawful. They should have checked but I do feel that in most cases they are an innocent party, however they still become a party to the case. We have great relationships with an enormous number of agents and I do contact agents I know if I see an ad that has issues.

Do a quick realestate.com.au search and see for yourself. Plenty of dual income, granny flat rental type properties out there

 

[kennyboi]

The property is possibly dated pre-war.

The approval, which I assume to be a change from class 1a to 1b happens between 2000-24/9/2009 and the leases commenced during this period until now. The leases are to 1 room per student, unrelated to each other.

The agent's email said "between 2000 and the 24th September 2009 if the building was approved and or tenanted one is able to have six unrelated tenants."

I am not very familiar with QLD laws. I couldn't come up with any search result that mention a limit of 6 post 2009.

The property that raised this question is: http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-woolloongabba-113200499. But the question here is more of a general nature for any properties that fit the scenario in Brisbane council area, as I seen a few ads like this advertised that got me interested.

 

[Perp]

You can get a bunch of information about the property here: http://pdonline.brisbane.qld.gov.au/MasterView/masterplan/enquirer/default.aspx?page=search

It doesn't look like there's a multi-unit dwelling approval in place, but it's impact assessable and thus probably attainable, which would enable you to go to 9 tenants.

 

[RPI]

The property is possibly dated pre-war.

The approval, which I assume to be a change from class 1a to 1b happens between 2000-24/9/2009 and the leases commenced during this period until now. The leases are to 1 room per student, unrelated to each other.

The agent's email said "between 2000 and the 24th September 2009 if the building was approved and or tenanted one is able to have six unrelated tenants."

I am not very familiar with QLD laws. I couldn't come up with any search result that mention a limit of 6 post 2009.

The property that raised this question is: http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-woolloongabba-113200499. But the question here is more of a general nature for any properties that fit the scenario in Brisbane council area, as I seen a few ads like this advertised that got me interested.

The class is a building code thing, the use is a planning thing. The use of a dwelling by more than 1 distinct household, domestic group or individual constitutes a multiunit dwelling, regardless of the built form. This is under Brisbane City Plan 2000

Under City Plan 2012 it is much worse
HOUSEHOLD
An individual or a group of two or more related or unrelated people who reside in the dwelling, with the common intention to live together on a long-term basis and who make common provision for food or other essentials for living. The term does not include individuals living in rooming accommodation.

You have no chance of a multiunit dwelling being approved on that site. 405 m2 Character Residential block.

My thoughts would be something to do with a barge pole.

 

[Perp]

You have no chance of a multiunit dwelling being approved on that site. 405 m2 Character Residential block.

My thoughts would be something to do with a barge pole.

Have they tightened up considerably? I have a DA approved for material change of use to multi-unit dwelling on a sub-400 m2 character residential block.

 

[RPI]

Have they tightened up considerably? I have a DA approved for material change of use to multi-unit dwelling on a sub-400 m2 character residential block.

Spring Hill/ Petrie Terrace? Or other local plan that helped?

 

[Perp]

Spring Hill/ Petrie Terrace? Or other local plan that helped?

Ah, Spring Hill! Didn't realise the local plan addressed those kinds of issues.

 

[Pinkot]

related persons

Hi, I live in Bundaberg but I believe the rules are the same as for Brisbane. I rented out my investment property to a group of backpackers, last week I got a visit from the fire brigade, they told me as was running an unapproved budget accommodation and they gave me 4 weeks to remedy. Now my question is what if there are 3 couples that are related, would this be considered multiple households? Or if I rent out my house to a defacto couple with 4 kids, that would probably considered one house hold. What if a family of 5 take in a boarder or an overseas student, would their house become budget accommodation?

 

[Perp]

Hi, I live in Bundaberg but I believe the rules are the same as for Brisbane. I rented out my investment property to a group of backpackers, last week I got a visit from the fire brigade, they told me as was running an unapproved budget accommodation and they gave me 4 weeks to remedy. Now my question is what if there are 3 couples that are related, would this be considered multiple households? Or if I rent out my house to a defacto couple with 4 kids, that would probably considered one house hold. What if a family of 5 take in a boarder or an overseas student, would their house become budget accommodation?

It depends on the number of leases. If they're willing to all sign up to a single lease, they're deemed a household. But joining yourselves on a lease means you also become liable for the actions of all the other people on the lease, and you all have to agree on the timeframe of your tenancy, so you'll struggle to find unrelated parties who'll agree to that. That's the difference between an extended family and a few random backpackers; whether they act as a single economic unit.

If you want to have more than one lease on the property, you need development approval for multiple occupancy (if it's in a standard residentially zoned area).

You also want to check your insurance. If you have standard landlord's insurance, you'll find that your policy is almost certainly nullified by using it as a multiple occupancy (even with Council approval, and definitely without).

 

[Tim86]

It depends on the number of leases. If they're willing to all sign up to a single lease, they're deemed a household. But joining yourselves on a lease means you also become liable for the actions of all the other people on the lease, and you all have to agree on the timeframe of your tenancy, so you'll struggle to find unrelated parties who'll agree to that. That's the difference between an extended family and a few random backpackers; whether they act as a single economic unit.

If you want to have more than one lease on the property, you need development approval for multiple occupancy (if it's in a standard residentially zoned area).

You also want to check your insurance. If you have standard landlord's insurance, you'll find that your policy is almost certainly nullified by using it as a multiple occupancy (even with Council approval, and definitely without).

I agree with all of this response, except for the bit where it's hard to get everyone to sign up on the one lease. I find it very easy and currently have 2 properties rented to individuals but all on the one lease.

No more than 5 unrelated individuals in each house, they each pay their portion of the rent as specified in the tenancy agreement, and they are only liable for their own portion of the rent and bond. I find tenants for these properties very quickly.

Also to add to the issue you get with landlord insurance not covering multiple tenancy agreements on the one property, banks like westpac won't give you a loan on that property either.

 

[Perp]

I agree with all of this response, except for the bit where it's hard to get everyone to sign up on the one lease. I find it very easy and currently have 2 properties rented to individuals but all on the one lease.

No more than 5 unrelated individuals in each house, they each pay their portion of the rent as specified in the tenancy agreement, and they are only liable for their own portion of the rent and bond. I find tenants for these properties very quickly.

Interesting! So do you draw up a new lease every time one of the tenants changes over, or do you just substitute parties?

With regards to limiting liability of each person to their own portion of rent and bond, I would be pretty confident that QCAT would construe that as meaning that they're individual agreements, whether you're trying to present it as one lease or not, i.e. they'll treat them as multiple agreements in any case. Have you run your lease past a lawyer, or had the lease tested at QCAT?

 

[Tim86]

Interesting! So do you draw up a new lease every time one of the tenants changes over, or do you just substitute parties?

With regards to limiting liability of each person to their own portion of rent and bond, I would be pretty confident that QCAT would construe that as meaning that they're individual agreements, whether you're trying to present it as one lease or not, i.e. they'll treat them as multiple agreements in any case. Have you run your lease past a lawyer, or had the lease tested at QCAT?

No haven't run it past a lawyer, but it's nothing too complicated. We just have an anexure which stipulates the proportion of rent each tenant is responsible for. They all sign the same tenancy agreement. They all sign up for the same period, same conditions, all on the one agreement. And if one leaves we just substitute the tenants rather that writing up a new lease each time.

I'd be surprised if it was counted as multiple tenancy agreements due to the rent being shared by the tenants and that share being documented on the tenancy agreement. But I don't know 100%