So much for global warming

One thing that always amazes me about skeptics of human environmental impact is their emphasis on individual phenomena. I think the mainstream media is guilty of this too.

Fact: humans have had overwhelming impact on many of the most important resource cycles on the planet:
Fishing
Forests
Clean water
Clean air
Energy
Plant and animal species (not just extinction, but also the billions of factory farmed animals and the massive food chains they rely on).
Land area use via agriculture.

Hello! How can we not be affecting global cycles?

Frankly, it doesn't matter if global warming is "true" or not: we can never test it thoroughly enough to convince a committed skeptic (note the previous posts re: the ozone layer!).

If its not global warming, it will be depletion or disruption of another cycle. Its time to monitor and limit our impact, remembering we are completely reliant on the resources and systems of unknown complexity which make up our environment.

Environmental change and degredation is real and all around us (heard of the Riverina and Murray Darling Basin? The Sahara desert (used to be forests): we have an impact, we can never be sure what that impact is exactly (that is the nature of complex systems), but clearly we are at the mercy of these changes and don't want to be pushing them faster than we need to!

I'd hate to be having to tell my kids about how we suspected we were wrecking the planet, but we couldn't be certain, so we didn't bother doing anything!
 
I though it was all about a Carbon Trading scheme (carbon tax really) but it seems there might be more on the agenda than that. :(


Africa slams Australia on climate change.

http://www.watoday.com.au/breaking-...ustralia-on-climate-change-20091105-hypz.html



I can see what's coming up here. Carbon emissions are going to get the blame for every drought and flood and famine from now on, and it will be the western worlds fault. Not overpopulation for flips sake.!!!!!

We have Ethiopia with 85 million people. Adding 2 million a year, and headed to 170 million in 40 years. They couldn't feed themselves 30 years ago when the population was half, they can't feed themselves now, and you don't have to be Nostradamus to see what's coming up here.

Nigeria has 150 million. Congo has 68 million. Sudan has 41 million. Tanzania has 41 million. The whole of Africa is on course to double it's population from 1 billion to 2 billion in the next 40 years, and you just watch what happens here,???.....It will be carbon emissions that's the cause of millions dieing from starvation, not overpopulation.


See ya's.
 
One thing that always amazes me about skeptics of human environmental impact is their emphasis on individual phenomena. I think the mainstream media is guilty of this too.

Fact: humans have had overwhelming impact on many of the most important resource cycles on the planet:
Fishing
Forests
Clean water
Clean air
Energy
Plant and animal species (not just extinction, but also the billions of factory farmed animals and the massive food chains they rely on).
Land area use via agriculture.

Hello! How can we not be affecting global cycles?

Frankly, it doesn't matter if global warming is "true" or not: we can never test it thoroughly enough to convince a committed skeptic (note the previous posts re: the ozone layer!).

If its not global warming, it will be depletion or disruption of another cycle. Its time to monitor and limit our impact, remembering we are completely reliant on the resources and systems of unknown complexity which make up our environment.

Environmental change and degredation is real and all around us (heard of the Riverina and Murray Darling Basin? The Sahara desert (used to be forests): we have an impact, we can never be sure what that impact is exactly (that is the nature of complex systems), but clearly we are at the mercy of these changes and don't want to be pushing them faster than we need to!

I'd hate to be having to tell my kids about how we suspected we were wrecking the planet, but we couldn't be certain, so we didn't bother doing anything!


Great post Zeng.

I always try to summerise quotes, but everything you've said is relevant.


However, assuming everything you've said is correct, what does the world do about it? What are you doing about it?

Agriculture figures prominantly in what you said? Agriculture is a bit of a paradoxical thing. The more production from a certain peice of land, the more fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides are needed. But the more production from a certain amount of land, the more land that can be kept for the environment and wilderness.

If agriculture is the problem, then there are too many people, simple as that.

Organic agriculture cannot feed the world, ever, or not since a hundred years ago. Organic agriculture only survives today by the massive nutrient load it gets from organic fertilizer via animals being fed grain. Grain grown using oil. Take that away, and we are back to bird crap deposites, which was running out in the 19th century. The human population now depends on oil for it's food. We have exceeded the natural carrying capacity 100 years ago at 1.5 billion.

I believe the current dry times in this continent aren't dry at all. They are a return to normal conditions after an extremely wet 70's and 90's. Go back to the first half of the last century and you will find dry times worse than now. People began to think the 70's and 90's were normal. They weren't.

The rivers are drying up due to increased mining, increased irrigation, and the much increased productivity of agriculture. They aren't drying up due to rainfall.


rain_aus_0112_27246.png




A lot of Kevs proposels would see carbon emissions actually increase. The carbon emissions would just be transfered to China or some other place.

Another paradoxical thing regarding carbon emissions is our massive population growth via immigration. Australians produce more carbon emissions than almost anyone else. Mainly due to our incredible high standard of living and our abundance of coal for power generation. By increasing Australia's population, we are taking people from developing nations who are producing very small amounts of carbon, and plonking them here, and immediately increasing the emissions.


It all comes down to everyone dramatically lowering their standard of living, and I don't believe people will do that. Yes, everyone cheered on Kev, he swept to power on a promise to fix carbon emissions, but now it's come time to actually do something, just watch what happens. I'm very proud that in my federal electorate of New England, labor only got 10% of the vote in the 07 election. Not too many fell for his garbage around here.

Copenhagan will be a balls up. It's debatable if the world is even still heating up. Plenty of countries will benefit from a warming world anyway. The world has always flourished in warm times, and suffered in the cold.


See ya's.
 
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Very interesting interview (whatever you think of Alan Jones)


Have a listen to this one between Alan Jones and Barnaby,...

http://www.2gb.com/podcasts/alanjone...oyce041109.mp3



It is all very scary what Kevin Rudd is getting us into. I don't think I realised how scary. The silly twit Malcolm Turnbull is just as dumb as Kev. As if any of this ETS will effect the toffs in Wentworth. He's all for this Copenhagan agreement too.

It appears to me that the average Aussie, and especially the average city aussie is starting to wake up to what a disaster this ETS will be and what it really means. Kev must be crapping himself as he starts to realise his little silly dream is starting to crumble all around him as this big global warming scam is slowly being revealed. Copenhagan is turning into a balls up.

Thank goodness for Barnaby Joyce. Thank goodness for the other nationals who rejected this crazy scheme. Thank goodness for the independants, Windsor and Katter. Good on the business spectator blokes for allerting everyone.


See ya's.
 
Have a listen to this one between Alan Jones and Barnaby,...

http://www.2gb.com/podcasts/alanjone...oyce041109.mp3



It is all very scary what Kevin Rudd is getting us into. I don't think I realised how scary. The silly twit Malcolm Turnbull is just as dumb as Kev. As if any of this ETS will effect the toffs in Wentworth. He's all for this Copenhagan agreement too.

It appears to me that the average Aussie, and especially the average city aussie is starting to wake up to what a disaster this ETS will be and what it really means. Kev must be crapping himself as he starts to realise his little silly dream is starting to crumble all around him as this big global warming scam is slowly being revealed. Copenhagan is turning into a balls up.

Thank goodness for Barnaby Joyce. Thank goodness for the other nationals who rejected this crazy scheme. Thank goodness for the independants, Windsor and Katter. Good on the business spectator blokes for allerting everyone.


See ya's.
It's about time someone stands up and speaks for the Australian people
Kev from Queensland has had a dream run,but what worries me about
how to fix carbon emissions is,it will turn into another Derivative market
just like the last one that has caused so many problems in the US and WILL
cause problems for the next 10 years in world markets, and if carbon trading becomes a Derivatives market where anyone can speculate to make a profit if the value moves in the way they think??,the same i think will happen with "Carbon Trading",and every Farmer Factory Owner anyone in Business will pay the price..imho willair..

 
The Maldives con....

.... It is an interesting read.

Yes Propertunity, I thought so.... I particularly liked the bit where he proved the Maldives weren't at risk from rising sea-levels, but the Maldives Gov't totally silenced him so that the aid money would keep coming:D !!!

What a total CON !!
LL
 
Yes Propertunity, I thought so.... I particularly liked the bit where he proved the Maldives weren't at risk from rising sea-levels, but the Maldives Gov't totally silenced him so that the aid money would keep coming:D !!!

What a total CON !!
LL


Great stuff.!!

What about the bit where you can tell the rise of oceans by the spin of the earth..?? If the earths radius increases, the earths rate of spin decreases, just like a spinning ice skater. Who'd have thunk it..??


See ya's.
 
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/hadley_hacked#63657

and the news is out, global warming figures have been manipulated for years. love the hackers!

Notice also how the catch-phrase has changed ever-so subtly from global "warming" to "climate change" in recent times.

Climate change.... yep; we get a fair bit of that here in Melb.

50mm of rain in the last 24 hours, about a week of temps in the 30's before that. That's a pretty good change of climate.

I mean, honestly.

What pisses me off is; the teachers at school bang the global warming/climate change drum REALLY loud to the kids, and worse still; they all believe their message.

The last Grade 6 musical production was all about it. :mad: Felt like walking out after about 2 minutes. But I stayed...the kids were cute though. It's a pity they are being brainwashed.

I agree we all need to clean up our own backyards and stop polluting the planet so we can keep on living, and growing stuff to eat, but for us to think we can affect the climate.....

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Im open to hearing arguments from both sides, but I when independant organisations like the European Academy of Sciences and Arts and the American Association for the Advancement of Science say that "global climate change caused by human activities is occurring now" I really have to listen to what they're on about.

Lets face it, AB is a bit of a right wing fascist (even though i sometimes agree with him:rolleyes:) and like us all lacks the PHD in science that is required to speak with some authority about the subject. All you can do is read indpendant, unbiased comments from experts and make your own judgement.
FRom what i read the scientific understanding of climate change has become sufficiently clear that it is caused by burning of fossil fuels, deforestation etc and this is not from org's. with vested interests, these are the top science bodies in the world. All the G8 countries national science bodies have signed a colective aggreement agreeing that the climate has changed and will contiue to.
The only disagreement is to what extent, but all agree in a significant change in the within the next 50 years based on current outputs
 
Some of this climate change denial comes from an inner fear of what is happening, people know it's real but they don't want to accept it, as the reality of what the future could hold is too frightening for them.
So they grasp onto fragments of dodgy information which can help them in their denial, while ignoring the vast amount of information from respectable bodies that has long proven it as fact.

Like a troubled debtor ignoring the mail, or a sick person ignoring worsening symptoms, hoping it will go away by itself.

Other reasons for climate change scepticism include hidden agendas (political, commercial) and ignorance.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/
 
Some of this climate change denial comes from an inner fear of what is happening, people know it's real but they don't want to accept it, as the reality of what the future could hold is too frightening for them.
So they grasp onto fragments of dodgy information which can help them in their denial, while ignoring the vast amount of information from respectable bodies that has long proven it as fact.

Like a troubled debtor ignoring the mail, or a sick person ignoring worsening symptoms, hoping it will go away by itself.

Other reasons for climate change scepticism include hidden agendas (political, commercial) and ignorance.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

With respect, I disagree absolutely.
 
All you can do is read indpendant, unbiased comments from experts and make your own judgement.

Or do around 5-10 years of intensive tertiary level learning along with significant peer reviewed original research in order to qualify as an expert in your own right. Then you may have an independent opinion!

Of course there is a body which brings together the vast majority of the planet's climate experts...

"Contributors
People from over 130 countries contributed to the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report over the previous 6 years. These people included more than 2500 scientific expert reviewers, more than 800 contributing authors, and more than 450 lead authors.[54]"

With respect, I disagree absolutely.

Are you a sceptic? :p
 
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