So much for global warming

Not as hard as fixing the problem though ...



So what's your plan then?

Most of all I'm a realist. I know that "fixing" your problem is infinitely harder than you imagine. That "a little bit of recycling" is almost irrelevant. That we don't have enough oil in the ground left to build the technology needed to replace it's general use.

I also do not believe in running around in a panic shouting "Do something!" and believing that "anything" is better than nothing.

Lift your eyes above your navel and spend a couple of hours every weekend as I have done for the last five years getting a feel for the enormity of the problems we face.

You will feel the cold winds of "peak oil" long before your water-front property is inundated. Why doesn't this concern you? I (we if I include Aceyducy) have been warning about this on SS for over five years so don't say I don't care.
 
Speaking of "fixing the problem" of things like polluting the earth etc....

What hope have you got of educating those following on behind us when every ad on TV is either;

1. Mobile Phone ad
2. Computer game/X-Box/Wii/Ipod doodad ad
3. Car ad
4. Fast food ad
5. Shampoo/cosmetic ad

You get my drift. Lots of really cool stuff on how to improve our environment. Not.

And what about the latest Solo ad where the genY guy is suckin' down a Solo at the bus stop, and then crushes the can under his foot, and then unsuccessfully attempts to soccer-kick it into the nearby bin.

The can rebounds off the bin onto the footpath, and the fool stands there shakin' his fool head, and totally ignores the litter he has just produced (can on the footpath).

Ad ends.

Now, THERE'S a message to the young'uns to clean up your planet...
 
Bayview, In spite of being brain washed throughout their schooling the young are the worst litterers.

We constantly hear of turtles and whales unsuccessfully injesting plastic. Do I care? Bloody oath! Habitat protection and cleanliness is the primary help we can give our wildlife.

The Great Barrier Reef has been in serious decline for over 40 years. Google Dr Robert Endean to read about one of it's heroes. Again I care greatly, but I'm not stupid enough to think Rudd's ETS will fix it. The Greens are ineffective Johnny-come-latelies on this matter.
 
I was listening to an interesting discussion on the radio on Sunday night that touched on all this, was occuring as a result of the leaked emails coming out...

one bloke (some science dude who dares to buck the establishment) came on and said something to the effect of:

(paraphrased from memory)
if you take the map of all the temperature and climate changes over the last 100 years and overlay it with the changes to the earths electromagentic fields over the same period - you will find the two are identical...now I am not saying that the EM fields are the cause of climate change, but it is an interesting fact and one overlooked by most of the scientific community


another science chick said something along the lines of:

(again paraphrased...)
they arrived at carbon as the cause because everything else they could think of proved to be wrong and there is no evidence yet to prove carbon is wrong - so it must be right!!!


interesting points of view
 
My ideal solution would be:
1/ Tax the crap out of carbon-based electricity
2/ Immediately replace coal-fired power with Nuclear (and dont give me the 10-year to come on line bullcrap. It takes just as long to build a coal station, and really... 10 years is a SHORT time).
3/ Invest heavily in a long-term RENEWABLE replacement for nuclear.
4/ Send nuclear waste to jupiter.


Yep.

I'd build nuclear power stations to supply base load power. Keep the better coal burning ones operating.
I'd keep puting up wind turbines, but due to their unreliability could be directed to water desalination. When it's blowing they can be making water and when it's not it won't matter. It seems that NIMBY's won't allow any more big dams so we will need desalination as stupid as it is.

Gas is too valuable to be burning for electric power. We will need it later for transport and fertilizer. But build a few gas power stations around the place for peak load power, and to help the Snowy hydro as peak load power.

I'd cut our immigration back to sensible levels. The more people we have enjoying our great standard of living, the more our exports have to be ramped up. We will soon be exporting a million tonnes of coal a day. What an embarrasment that is?


See ya's.
 
Hi all,

In all the debate, whether a sceptic or not, the following from abare sums up how seriously we really are about reducing carbon in the atmosphere.....

http://www.abareconomics.com/publications_html/energy/energy_06/coal_exports.pdf

In the reference case, Australia’s coal exports are projected to rise at an average
annual rate of 2.7 per cent over the period 2005–25 to reach 395 million tonnes
in 2025 (table A).

the realissue of burnibg tIncreasing exports of coal to India and China, up to 395 million tonnes PA by 2025 means when burnt an extra 1.44 BILLION tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere each year (going by the atomic weights of the elements and assuming a 100% efficient combustion).

How much talk is there about reining in coal exports?? .... none

Hence we are only paying lip service to the problem (if there is one).

If the extremist views of 6 degrees of warming come true, then our energies should be in place for adapting to the changes. Otherwise we must hope that the denier side is correct, because the reality is that in the 12 years since the signing of the Kyoto protocol, the CO2 levels in the atmosphere have increased at an exponential rate. Clearly the different types of schemes around the world work only to quell the masses worries about AGW and do not solve/reduce the perccived problem.

bye
 
well, all I can say is the rate of population growth on this planet is unsustainable and it will all end in tears. things will get ugly at some point, it's just a matter of time
 
well, all I can say is the rate of population growth on this planet is unsustainable and it will all end in tears. things will get ugly at some point, it's just a matter of time

hey they found water on the moon! who wants to move first?
maybe they can send us there with the tax revenues earned from cap and trade.
 
Before i write this post, i want to ad, that i haven't read all of this thread. The simple reason being is that many of the posts are pointing to different sets of evidence that all seem to contradict each other.

Now let me put forward a few observations. Climate change, or whatever you call it may or may not be happening. It depends on what scientist and what scientific body you are reading. It seems, from a layman, that the plethora or conflicting information, mis-information or whatever is just too much and many people give up on trying to keep up with the facts - whatever the facts may be. In other words, there is too much conflicting and confusing information for an average person to judge what is true or not.

But lets put this in perspective. I come from a rural background and i know and watch the weather. It's in the blood for any rural person to understand the local weather. I just happen to have also spent quite a few years in Asia too (I'll come to the reason why i added that later). I have also spent about 20 years in Canberra. So basically, no matter where i live, i watch and absorb the local weather.

So anyways, lets have a look at the patterns that i have noticed in 35 odd years of watching the weather in various arts of the world. Lets start with canberra.

When i first moved to canberra, the winters were much colder and were longer compared to what we are getting now. There was more foggy days here 20 years ago and many mornings there was a real pea souper which wouldn't lift until about noon. Plus, the fog was so thick that you couldn;t see the other side of the road/roundabout. That was about 20 years ago. We do not get as many foggy cold mornings now.

I recall many consecutive mornings where it would get to -6 and ice was so thick on your windscreen. Those mornings are not as frequent now.

Plus, i recall the spring rains which used to come in September. We used to have days where it would rain day in and day out and it would be good steady and heavy rain for a good few days. I cannot recall when we last had consecutive days of rain. Also, thunderstorms are getting rather rare in Canberra now. I recall many a good thunderstorm previously rolling over the mountains - but now, we may get about a small handful of ones that don't give us much of a bang as they used to give.

Those are basic observations of the differences in Canberra in 20 years.

Lets look at typhoon region Taiwan. Typhoon season is generally Sep/Oct and you'd be "lucky" to get maybe 3 or 4 typhoons in a season. Now, the typhoons seasons have moved so typhoons are now in Nove and some even pop up in Dec/Jan.

As a worker in Taiwan, one would be excited about an approaching typhoon as that means you are told to stay at home but you must buy up food and supplies as everything is shut when the storm hits. I recall being excited about twice a year in being told to stay at home. So i'd stiock up on Taiwan beer, and being the storm watcher i am, would sit under shelter on the top of my building and watch the typhoon while drinking beer. People thought i was just a crazy foreigner. Anyway, there are now more typhoons hitting Taiwan and at greater frquency and at a higher power too. In fact, some of the later ones when i was there were so strong that i wouldn't even dare to be at the usual typhoon watching location (but i still had my beer though). Plus, there seems to an increase in days now where it is possible to get over a 1 metre of rain in a day. This seems to be happening more often now.

So lets go back to Australia and look at some of the beaches. I am a semi regular at Stockton as it is family tradition to go there and spend some time there each year. So i know the famous Stockton beach very well. I recall that it used to be much bigger and had more sand on it - now the water is getting closer and the beach seems to be disappearing. So something is happening to one of my favourite beaches and i have noticed this change int he 25 odd years of holidaying there each year. Even the locals say that the water is getting closer to the war memorial there and the the beach is disappearing. So there is change there.

Who knows if the changes above are related to climate change, cows farting too much, too many SUVs or even some international conspiracy on scaring people - but for whatever reason, something has been happening to cause these changes. Sure these observations only occur over a 20 year period which is not even a blink in the eye of the history of our planet, but never the less, they are still changes. They could be related to El Nino or whatever the other is called, but who knows. But even so, somehting is changing.

So don't you think it is time to seriously look as to why these changes are occuring. Afterall, if you had an IP which was slowly, i and i mean very slowly sinking in the dirt, then wouldn't you want to know why it was sinking in the dirt so that you could understand and then try and prevent it - if you could.

The changes i describe above may be just a regular long term pattern that we don't fully understand but they are still changes. I do not understand why some people bury their head in the sand on this issue as though njothin is happening. Something is happening, be it climate change or world patterns of whatever, so lets have a serious discussion on it. If something is happening and it is later proven to be man made or man inflicted, then don't you think you, or we as a society, should be looking at it - just in case.

Let me ask one final question - i think many of us here save money for the so called rainy day, that is, we always put money aside for when we need it so we are not caught short. How about we commit to getting some knowledge and do scientific study now just in case this climate change is man made. Do you want to be see human society caught short in 100 years time if we are wrong today?

Just a thought.


g
 
So anyways, lets have a look at the patterns that i have noticed in 35 odd years of watching the weather in various arts of the world. Lets start with canberra.

When i first moved to canberra, the winters were much colder and were longer compared to what we are getting now. There was more foggy days here 20 years ago and many mornings there was a real pea souper which wouldn't lift until about noon. Plus, the fog was so thick that you couldn;t see the other side of the road/roundabout. That was about 20 years ago. We do not get as many foggy cold mornings now.

I recall many consecutive mornings where it would get to -6 and ice was so thick on your windscreen. Those mornings are not as frequent now.

Plus, i recall the spring rains which used to come in September. We used to have days where it would rain day in and day out and it would be good steady and heavy rain for a good few days. I cannot recall when we last had consecutive days of rain. Also, thunderstorms are getting rather rare in Canberra now. I recall many a good thunderstorm previously rolling over the mountains - but now, we may get about a small handful of ones that don't give us much of a bang as they used to give.

Those are basic observations of the differences in Canberra in 20 years.

g


Lets bung some rainfall figures up for Canberra then and check it out eh?

070014_18_13_46369.png



Doesn't look too out of the ordinary if you ask me. Seems a wetter period occured around 1960, then the 70's, and 90's were wetter. That's similar to what happened in other parts of Australia.

On my farm, the entire dry 60's received an amazing 250 mills per year less than the very wet 90's. I also had a wet 50's and 70's. The 30's and 40's and 80's were dryer, and so far the naughties have been average.



My old 90 year old gran told me years ago about how wonderfull and wet 'the olden days' used to be. Back in the 20's and 30's, it was always green and the creeks always ran, you couldn't get into town cause the creeks were always flooding, blah, blah, blah. But look up the rainfall figures and it doesn't show that. If anything, the first half of the last century was dryer than the last half. I think people get a selective memory. They forget the bad dry times, and remember the lush wet times.




See ya's.
 
So lets go back to Australia and look at some of the beaches.
g


Beaches..??

When I was a kid there was no sand at Kirra beach. You could stand and watch the surfers just 50 metres away riding the break. Now there is 150 metres of sand to get to the surf. The breakwalls have changed all the beachs and where the sand ends up. Now Surfers gets less sand and Coolangatta gets more.

See ya's.
 
Most of all I'm a realist. I know that "fixing" your problem is infinitely harder than you imagine.

...

You will feel the cold winds of "peak oil" long before your water-front property is inundated.

Peak oil has been discussed in great length on this forum already. Despite your dogmatic statements, you can't use peak oil to dismiss climate change.

What do you have to contribute to the debate besides deriding people who are prepared to take action?
 
Hi all,

HK, you have to be kidding...

What do you have to contribute to the debate besides deriding people who are prepared to take action?

This is the standard sort of argument given up by believers to anyone who questions the religious zeal.

Thommo clearly identified that there are problems that need addressing, but because it is not along the lines of AGW (which judging by the latest info about the data being manipulated is becoming more questionable to those with their eyes open), you have a go at the messenger, not the message.

bye
 
Thommo clearly identified that there are problems that need addressing, but because it is not along the lines of AGW (which judging by the latest info about the data being manipulated is becoming more questionable to those with their eyes open), you have a go at the messenger, not the message.

bye

Almost spot on Bill.

I'm not having a go at the messenger, I'm having a go at the communication style of the messenger.

No matter how Al Gore may have exaggerated his case, I don't think you can use that to dismiss the entire thing.

I do believe in peer-reviewed scientific consensus. That's as objective as what you can be.

Cheers,
 
Hi HK,

I do believe in peer-reviewed scientific consensus.

This is what most people in the believers camp do. In the 17th century the scientific approach to medicine was bloodletting, it was consensus amongst 'scientists' ...... and wrong.

Part of what the consensus is made up of comes from IPCC chapter 4. In this document is a section on global sea ice and the science of what is happening to it. The data used (and used in the climate models) shows a decrease in arctic sea ice over the last 30 years and no 'significant' change in Antarctic sea ice over the same period. The data used is up to the end of 2005.

Having a look at this information from this site..

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/current.anom.south.jpg

clearly shows an INCREASE in Antarctic sea ice on average over the last 30 years, especially in the last few years, yet when you look at the graph up to the end of 2005 is where you get 'no statistical change'.

The data used, has been very selective to show what the scientists want to show, the models have data included that is not the full picture. The politicians have sized upon a potential new tax based on dodgy science.

All the while 'peak everything' is on the back-burner as if it is not a problem.

The climate of the earth has always been changing, so a bit warmer here a bit cooler there over a couple of decades is to be expected, any concept of trying to 'do something' to keep the climate constant is irrational, it is just not possible.

bye
 
the problem i have with the whole "climate change" thing is the way that govts worldwide are flailing their collective arms wildly and throwning BILLIONS and TRILLIONS of dollars at an issue that we do not understand..... and setting up schemes such as emmissions trading, carbon reduction targets, and other such farsical nonsense that does NOTHING TO SOLVE ANYTHING. They even go so far as to totally exempt the largest causes of the perceived problem, and lump the entire cost on Joe Average householder.


All these schemes do is look good policially.

I do agree that we as a WORLDWIDE society should be doing things to improve the way in which we utilise and inhabit this planet.
REAL things - not "feel good" legislation such as emissions trading schemes.


Yeah im a climate change sceptic, but i do think that we should be doing everything within our power to reduce and eliminate our reliance on fossil fuels. We already have the technology to significantly reduce our reliance on them (nuclear power)..... but no one has the balls to actually follow through with action..
At least "little johnny" had the balls to get us started on that path.


I'd also like to leave you with one fact which i though would have had the climate change crowd up in arms to act on it immediately. Alas it does not, and thus is a major source of my scepticism on the topic.

Over 25% of Australia's carbon pollution comes SOLELY from our coal burning power stations.
 
The climate of the earth has always been changing, so a bit warmer here a bit cooler there over a couple of decades is to be expected, any concept of trying to 'do something' to keep the climate constant is irrational, it is just not possible.

bye

Damn straight.

it's almost as irrational as trying to eliminate the change in temperatures from summer to winter.
 
The argument on climate change is different to the argument on an ETS that is going to impact Australia greatly but the rest of the world in a minute way.

My father had an expression:

As much value as a ha'penny of gin in a bucket of cold water.

Rather than tax households, if they were serious about climate change action they'd so something about a good accessible public transport scheme for instance, and a hundred other ways of reducing carbon pollution.

As with all politicians they want to pass a law, win some kudos and then go back to sleep and let the working poor pay for their lack of foresight and action.

Climate change may be a fact but the politicians will do nothing to correct it but they will manage to introduce a range of new taxes and give more ammunition to the One World Goverment conspiricists rather than do something that is actually constructive.
 
Hi HK,

This is what most people in the believers camp do. In the 17th century the scientific approach to medicine was bloodletting, it was consensus amongst 'scientists' ...... and wrong.

Part of what the consensus is made up of comes from IPCC chapter 4. In this document is a section on global sea ice and the science of what is happening to it. The data used (and used in the climate models) shows a decrease in arctic sea ice over the last 30 years and no 'significant' change in Antarctic sea ice over the same period. The data used is up to the end of 2005.

...

All the while 'peak everything' is on the back-burner as if it is not a problem.

Some good points in here.

I am aware that this is a complex issue, with no certainty either way. Some believe the worst, others don't think there's a problem. They can throw evidence at each other all day, it probably won't change much anyway.

I'm not predicting the worst or claiming that I'm an expert. What seems clear to me though is that, by increasing Co2 emission beyond the level this planet has ever experienced, we are moving into unknown territory. We don't know for sure how the earth climate will behave. The oceans are becoming more acid. We don't yet understand the full consequences of this. We don't know how less hospitable the planet may become to us.

That's the fear that is behind all of this. Is it irrational? Maybe.

I can understand (and resent) that govt & investment banks are looking at it from a different angle: how can we make a profit, create a new tax, ... I don't know how high the bill is, but I'd be prepared to pay a little bit more for energy if it helped reduced the risk. And even if the govt taxed me too much along the way, I wouldn't be as upset as if I found out that we have left a much less hospitable planet to our children.

Meanwhile, the focus is away from peak oil. Peak oil is a medium term issue while global warming is a longer-term issue. It will come back when the oil price starts rising again though.

Cheers,
 
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