some musings on future direction ...

i was just lazying in the bath eating goodygumdrop icecream and reading the people of interest stories in the last api - as one does - and started mind wandering as to where we go from here.

as most would know, hubby got a job transfer and we're now located in a smallish town - second largest city in south australia (which doesn't mean much).

the local property market is too expensive as they have just gone thru their boom over the last 6 months (however i will be looking at a block of 3 units this afternoon). i still like newcastle as a market area but it is not cheap and at the moment cashflow is holding us back. there is also the substaintial amount of losses we are carrying forward due to some bad decision making (read: great learning experiences) a few years back.

so i ventured - to the dark side of thoughts - currently we are renting (okay, so his work is paying the rent for 6 months) a very very nice 4bed/2bath 6mth old joint for almost half what our ppor is renting out for - and the 4/2 is really much to much house for us. anyhow, we are therefore using the ppor rent to rapidly pay off some debt over the next six months ... but i digress ...

this got me thinking - as long as we rent, our ppor remains our ppor for cg purposes for 6 years (then we move back in for a month and the 6 years starts again). as there are now only 3 people and 2 pets in the house (stepkids have moved in permanently with their mother due to us being 1000km away) we no longer need to live in a 5bed/3bath joint (even the 4/2 is too much) with expansive ocean views and large cg.

maybe there really is something in this renting for a couple of years stuff - as long as you also owned a "ppor" that was increasing in tax free cg and it rented out for higher than you were paying in rent.

so, what if it was taken a step further. what if the place you were renting was owned at arms length by yourself - via the trust that is holding the large losses - and obviously you have to pay market rent to the trust to keep it all above board.

and then what if the place you were renting needed a minor reno, and was subdividable? then you wouldn't be disturbing "tenants" to do the reno or subidivision. and what if the trust was to then build a second house on the block?

then you could either rent out the new house, move into the new house yourself to rent from the trust, or move out completely to rent or sell both - if sell then write off some off the losses and get tax fee $$ and repeat process.

probably to avoid disrupting the family to much i'd probably go down the "move into the new house and sell the old one" path.

all the while the ppor is going up in cg-free value and you are getting the extra income from it.

thoughts?
 
Let me get this straight!
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You were lazing in a bath at midday?


.... what if the place you were renting was owned at arms length by yourself - via the trust that is holding the large losses

I'd say the ATO would suggest that there is no other purpose for doing this other than to avoid tax and as such you would be in breach on section 4a.
 
yeah - junior is at school and, having moved south, i was feeling the cold. good place to eat icecream and read/research at the same time too - was either bath or in bed.

got a problem with that? :D
 
I'd say the ATO would suggest that there is no other purpose for doing this other than to avoid tax and as such you would be in breach on section 4a.


hmm - some more investigating required re this i thinks. not sure how tax office would view it if it was all done above board and at market values. however, if 6mth transfer turns into 5 years (like last one did) then we would be renting in a different town so no comeback from tax office there.

i might shoot off some emails to a couple of property accountants i know.
 
started wandering as to where we go from here.

as most would know, hubby got a job transfer and we're now located in a smallish town - second largest city in south australia (which doesn't mean much).

....I reckon as far away as possible from that windswept saltbush....:)
 
Shoulda moved to Laura, home of Golden North. Not too far from where I am :p

And stop picking on Whyalla, some of us live/d there y'know ... or I'll come hunt you down when I'm there for the show :cool:
 
hey - i ain't picking on whyalla. i'm kinda enjoying living here - knowing no-one, no expectations (except that i behave), no stress, long walks on the saltbush moors over the road with the dog, off to see the australian ballet next weekend (they're coming to town), writing my kids books, doing the taxes, chatting on ss, experimenting with cooking and eating icecream (hence the long walks).

but back to the roundabout question at hand ... can one legally live in a rented place (regardless of it being arms length thru a trust or a completely different owner) in the same town as a ppor and still claim the ppor exemption?

the tenants love living in the house so much they've already asked if they can buy it - but i think the price might have been to steep for them (but we ain't selling for less) - and they want to stay as long as possible. a raaf family, so i don't think we'll have problems with them.

however, new zealand are nibbling at hubby's brains again at the moment so we might be going even further away in 6 months so the question may be irrelevent - just trying to get the thoughts in order for possible scenario's.
 
but back to the roundabout question at hand ... can one legally live in a rented place (regardless of it being arms length thru a trust or a completely different owner) in the same town as a ppor and still claim the ppor exemption?

Hi Lizzie,

Glad to see your making best use of your new life!

I'm not going to listen to it again so soon but I think that the latest webcast of Yardney and Chan that I played back today did address a similar situation as yours? Ed Chan answered a question along this line I think.

Enjoy, Ian :)
 
Great place to think creatively...

i was just lazying in the bath

I don't know the answer to your question BUT on a different tack I have been thinking along the lines of when we retire;

a) sell our house
b) move into one of our rental properties to establish PPOR (get valuations done before and after)
c) put down 20% deposit on 2 more properties
d) live off interest and superannuation
e) then move and rent a new duplex that a friend will build at the beach (he will mow the lawn etc)

f) Watch friend's face when I ask if we can rent one of his duplexes.


Love it when you have plenty of options.


Regards
Sheryn
 
....have you had your thyroid checked recently Lizzie?

if you mean because of the cold - i have low blood pressure. low end of "normal" (genetically always have and always will) which means the body temperature doesn't regulate as well as it should.

the highest i've ever been was 105/65 when 9 month preggy.

if you mean because of my "dark side" musing - just want to know all the options before we get to the "have to be back in newcastle in 3 weeks" stage.
 
I'm not going to listen to it again so soon but I think that the latest webcast of Yardney and Chan that I played back today did address a similar situation as yours? Ed Chan answered a question along this line I think.

thanks ian - i haven't listened to their webcasts for a while. speakers were playing up, fixed themselves and then got packed for the move.

i'll drag them out for a listen on monday when junior is back at school.
 
Hi Lizzie,

Any further musings? I am interested as I may be in a similar situation to you in the next couple of years. I'm just not sure if I can grasp the fact of how much benefit one would receive.

So our true scenario would be :

Own a PPOR in existing town X

Having to move to new town Y to be near my parents in their old age to help with their growing personal needs. (this is real)

Buy a house on large block in town Y in a trust structure. Rent house back from trust and then develop block to create one or more units. Renovate house to add more value.

Could this work and where would the benefit lie? I can't get my head around it as I have little understanding of how trusts work.
 
thanks for reminding me rockstar. this was the one question if forgot to ask the accountant as i was picking his brains re smsf joint ventures after i spotted another development block.

i shall email him now.
 
Your PPOR CGT exemption will still last 6 years even if you rent in Newcastle.

You can rent a property that your family trust owns but you can't claim any negative gearing if you do so.



aha - just wanted i wanted to hear. hope this helps rockstar.
 
Hi Lizzie,

Just thought I'd share HTW's July report with you as the news on Newcastle developments isn't great. I guess its a good thing you've moved inter-state huh! :D

http://www.htw.com.au/Downloads/Files/193_July_2008_Month_In_Review.pdf

Starts at the bottom of page 7...

HTW said:
Overall, the premium prices paid for sites, increasing development costs and a reduction in gross realisations with protracted sales periods is causing a lot of stress for unit developments and speculative land banking exercises in the current market. The viability of mooted projects, the profitability of projects under construction and the equity position of many developers are all being tested as a result of the current market cycle. With no immediate relief in sight, we can expect the current soft market conditions to remain for the short term.

Cheers,
Michael
 
thanks michael - i had seen it but i'm thinking 12-24 months down the track. i like newcastle because it has a very wide industry base - from a coal port to a world class uni and everything in between.

granted, it is going thru a slump at the moment, but (if you read the entire report) they are talking about overdevelopment in units - which i will agree with. there are two large unit developments (for newcastle) coming on line in charlestown, another couple in newcastle/west property and a huge development on the beachfront where the old hospital used to be.

but i think for courtyard townhouses or stand alone dwellings, there will always be an underlying demand (in the right location). something about newcastle people liking a garden and pets.
 
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