Stolen Property - Who owns it

[matto_]

Way outside the realms of property investment - however came across a scenario yesterday and wondered what the collective wisdom of Somersoft thought.

Friend of mine lost his kiteboard around a year ago. (it was actually lost while he was on the beach). His board had his name and phone number laminated into it.

He assumed it was lost and bought another board ($800 brand new).

On the weekend was at St Kilda and saw a board which looked similar to his - checked and found name and number.

Turns out current "owner" had bought it from a backpacker for $200.

My friend proceeded to reclaim his property.

From a legal (or moral) standpoint - who then has rights to this property?

 

[Aaron_C]

Matto,

Under the law your friend no longer is entitled to his kiteboard, assuming that the new 'owner' bought it from the backpacker in good faith for consideration and without knowledge that it was stolen. Your friend will have a right to claim against the backpacker (maybe) but not the new person.

 

[cimbom]

I think if the second guy purchased it in good faith and under the assumption that it really belonged to the backpacker guy, then legally it is his but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[pinkboy]

Way outside the realms of property investment - however came across a scenario yesterday and wondered what the collective wisdom of Somersoft thought.

Friend of mine lost his kiteboard around a year ago. (it was actually lost while he was on the beach). His board had his name and phone number laminated into it.

He assumed it was lost and bought another board ($800 brand new).

On the weekend was at St Kilda and saw a board which looked similar to his - checked and found name and number.

Turns out current "owner" had bought it from a backpacker for $200.

My friend proceeded to reclaim his property.

From a legal (or moral) standpoint - who then has rights to this property?

Did your friend report it as lost/stolen to any authority? That would be the only recourse to make a claim most likely only against the backpacker. The new 'owner' would only be in trouble if they knew the goods were stolen. Hard to prove, and a fair case of 'he said, she said'!

pinkboy

 

[cimbom]

How funny, we replied at the same time

 

[Sunfish]

Matto,

Under the law your friend no longer is entitled to his kiteboard, assuming that the new 'owner' bought it from the backpacker in good faith for consideration and without knowledge that it was stolen. Your friend will have a right to claim against the backpacker (maybe) but not the new person.

Stolen property REMAINS the property of original owner, methinks. The purchaser loses the property, gains wisdom - NOT to buy any more stolen property.

 

[willair]

Way outside the realms of property investment - however came across a scenario yesterday and wondered what the collective wisdom of Somersoft thought.

Friend of mine lost his kiteboard around a year ago. (it was actually lost while he was on the beach). His board had his name and phone number laminated into it.

He assumed it was lost and bought another board ($800 brand new).

On the weekend was at St Kilda and saw a board which looked similar to his - checked and found name and number.

Turns out current "owner" had bought it from a backpacker for $200.

My friend proceeded to reclaim his property.

From a legal (or moral) standpoint - who then has rights to this property?

The only question to ask is was the item insured?,plus the backpacker may be long gone,and it seems strange to me the the owner still has your mates name and number sealed into the board,so that would tell you upfront the person that bought it thought that the deal was upfront,
or look at in very simple terms,how much hard cash is he prepared too pay to get the item back,plus strees worry and what ever else gets thrown back and foward inbetween..

 

[cu@thetop]

Stolen property REMAINS the property of original owner, methinks. The purchaser loses the property, gains wisdom - NOT to buy any more stolen property.

What he said. Even better if a complaint was made to the police. If "lost" as opposed to stolen still the same outcome. Bailee has rights against everyone else except the true owner.

The backpacker had no title to pass in the 1st place so being a bona fide purchaser will not help (except resisting being charged with receiving stolen goods).

 

[Sunfish]

What he said. Even better if a complaint was made to the police. If "lost" as opposed to stolen still the same outcome. Bailee has rights against everyone else except the true owner.

The backpacker had no title to pass in the 1st place so being a bona fide purchaser will not help (except resisting being charged with receiving stolen goods).

I can't believe anyone thought "good faith" had anything to do with ownership. As you say it is a defense against a charge of "receiving" but in this case, even that could be contested. Did the buyer/receiver ask for identification matching that which was on the board?

 

[willair]

What he said. Even better if a complaint was made to the police. If "lost" as opposed to stolen still the same outcome. Bailee has rights against everyone else except the true owner.

The backpacker had no title to pass in the 1st place so being a bona fide purchaser will not help (except resisting being charged with receiving stolen goods).

What happens if the backpacker bought the item from a police -lost property auction and has a receipt in black and white,i see items all the time at goverment police auctions some have id burned or micro-dot but they still sell on the day,someone always ends up holding the can..

 

[weg]

Items belong to your friend.

I would think that technically it would be a case of this guy recieving stolen goods (there was ID on the kiteboard yet the backpacker didn't take it to the police) even if he bought it in good faith.

 

[Truly Exotic]

The police can still come to your house 6 months after you purchase a car from a car dealer, who knowinlgy or unknowingly traded in a stolen car, they can simply take it off you, and its your responsbility to do go through civil means

if your friend didnt own the property, then that would mean, I could steal a house/car and on good intentions sell it to a friend, and then the original owner would not own it,

if thats the case, Im going to change jobs

 

[Terry_w]

Matto,

Under the law your friend no longer is entitled to his kiteboard, assuming that the new 'owner' bought it from the backpacker in good faith for consideration and without knowledge that it was stolen. Your friend will have a right to claim against the backpacker (maybe) but not the new person.

This is incorrect.

The new owner would have better title than everybody except the original owner.

The new 'owner' would have to take action against the person who sold it to him.

 

[Terry_w]

The rule is know as "nemo dat". You cannot give title to that which you do not have.

here fro wiki
Nemo dat quod non habet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet#English_law

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

It belongs to the person who lost it (or from whom it was stolen).

 

[matto_]

Wow.

I knew the learn-ed minds on somersoft would have many and varied opinions. Thanks for all the posts.

My thoughts oscillated between - it is rightfully my friends, all the way through to - but if the new dude paid for it, then it should be his.

Bit more detail. (apologies if I miss any).

- Not sure whether he reported lost to the police (would this change things)?
- Not sure whether item was insured (and dont know whether he claimed against insurance)
- Name/number/identification on board - apparently not very visible, but when pointed out current "owner" was shocked.

Anyway - even though my friend reclaimed his property - he felt guilty about the situation, and has offered the other party one of his old boards to assist.

 

[Blacky]

Wow.

I knew the learn-ed minds on somersoft would have many and varied opinions. Thanks for all the posts.

My thoughts oscillated between - it is rightfully my friends, all the way through to - but if the new dude paid for it, then it should be his.

Bit more detail. (apologies if I miss any).

- Not sure whether he reported lost to the police (would this change things)? it is irrelivant in this situation
- Not sure whether item was insured (and dont know whether he claimed against insurance) - If he has claimed it against insurance, he has passed title to the insurance company - and therefore it is rightfully his insurers. His insurance company would need to take the action to recover the goods.
- Name/number/identification on board - apparently not very visible, but when pointed out current "owner" was shocked. It helps prove that this is his board.

Anyway - even though my friend reclaimed his property - he felt guilty about the situation, and has offered the other party one of his old boards to assist. Very generous of him.

As others have already said he has not transferred title, so remains the owner.
The new buyer could be charged with accepting stolen goods and could only defend "good faith" provided he made "reasonable attempts" to prove that the seller was the true owner. He would have to defend himself given that the owners ID is on the item.

As for the police auctions - they release the 'title' of the goods prior to the auction.
It is the same if you hand goods in which are not identified (ie - you find a ring and hand it to the cops). You can often claim title after a couple of weeks if no one claims the goods, and they become legally yours.

Someone mentioned that a stolen car through a (licensed) dealer could be confiscated. This is true however the dealer must legally pass clear title of a vehicle. If it happened, the original owner could claim the car back, and the 'new owner' could chase after the dealer (and the dealer would be screwed). By purchasing a car from a licensed dealer, you are effectively buying in good faith.

Cheers

Blacky

 

[CHAOS]

Did the backpacker exist? Person found with the board may have had a story made up ... just in case he got caught.
Perhaps he is feeling a bit guilty if he let your friend take it back.

 

[eXc]

It belongs to the person who lost it (or from whom it was stolen).

That was my understanding. As an example, if I buy stolen goods (knowingly or not) and the police find it, I will lose and it is my responsibility to chase the person I bought it from. It's one of the reasons you check if it's stolen before buying a car - cause you wear the cost if it is.

 

[weg]

Did the backpacker exist? Person found with the board may have had a story made up ... just in case he got caught.
Perhaps he is feeling a bit guilty if he let your friend take it back.

It does sound a bit sus.

I've seen many items unattended on a beach before, but don't ever assume that they're lost unless there are no people in sight.

If it disappeared while the OP's friend or other people were still there (or if he came back for it and people were still around), then there was probably no backpacker, and the guy with the board is a thief .