Sydney property hasn't crashed & won't crash

See page 2 of http://download.hsbc.com.au/markets/anzweekly/oz040524.pdf

The RBA itself acknowledged the possible shortcoming of the Australian Property Monitors series, noting that the 10.5% March quarter fall in Sydney house prices was based on a sample of only one third of the likely total.

In contrast to the result from Australian Property Monitors it shows no change at all in the median Sydney house price in the March quarter. Prices did not increase, but they did not fall. This result updates the preliminary Residex result published by the RBA, which showed a 0.6% fall in Sydney house prices. With more data for the quarter the result was no change. Another series not available to the RBA at the time the Statement is the Real Estate Institute of NSW series. When published it showed that median Sydney hous e prices increased by 1.2% in the March quarter. For its part the Housing Industry Association data, which is based on data from the Commonwealth Bank shows a 3% fall in house Sydney dwelling prices for the March quarter.

The whole text is only 2 pages long & worth reading from a lies, damned lies, statistics POV & also an indication of the future direction of prices.
 
Also interesting is that nationally median prices have never fallen in recorded history.....only specific markets have had falls....even during so-called property busts.

:)

After all, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics data the median house price has not fallen in Australia over any year in the eighteen years data has been published.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
All this talk of busts ???? :rolleyes:

My thinking is soft landing for anything that was a reasonable purchase in the first place. :)

Why ? Because interest rates are still low and there is no pressure to sell quality assets. ;) Most of us have factored in another couple of rises no problem.

At this stage vacancy is the only problem people will have to look out for.

Sure the excessive prices will come down. And the top end of the market may faulter, The apartments will come off, but the quality properties shold hold up OK. IMHO.

MJK :D
 
But what was a reasonable purchase in the first place ? On one side we have the Doom & Gloomers, on the other we have the property market cheersquad. I'm struggling to find a middle ground and hopefully a more realistic one.

What constitutes a real reasonable price ? With prices doubling over the last 5 years, you could easily argue that today's prices are correct, or conversley, argue that prices 3 years ago, after a 20%-30% rise in prices are correct.
 
Baloo,

The correct price is whatever people will pay.

There's no real hard and fast answer as to what property markets will do, nationally, regionally or locally (to you).

Most of the debate is about the future direction of prices, up down or sideways.

And part of the confusion is due to the time periods different people look at and their mindsets as an investor.

A 1-2 year viewpoint is entirely different to a 10 year viewpoint!

And a short-term property investor has an entirely different perspective on price trends than a long-term investor......

Also the specific markets under consideration influence the trend predictions.

Inner metro apartments in Sydney perform entirely differently to houses on acreage at Mt Isa.

First decide where YOU stand, then look at the cases that apply to your strategy.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Baloo,

I think you have to look at rental return combined with location, vacancy rates and land content. Others will have different formulas.

For me, if the focus was on Capital growth rather than income the following would apply,

Rental return must be > 5% absolute minimum
Major city only ( may include large regionals )
Vacancy rate < 3% ( ie I know I'll get a tenant )
Land content > 40% ( value of land must equal 40% of purchase cost.

For me, if focus was on income the following would apply,

Rental return >9%
Location / same as above
Vacancy rate / same as above
Land content / > 30%
Main difference is at that return I wouldn't expect capital growth.

In the short term I wouldn't expect capital growth at all. But if your outlook is for 10 years down the road then buying the right property now could be an option. Personally I am not buying with a capital growth focus at the moment but rather I'm in the market for income.

MJK :D
 
I've worked out what direction I want to take, but I guess I am being impatient in trying to predict the general direction of my targetted market over the next couple of years. I guess it doesn't bode well that I am already impatient without holding anything at the moment, it's something I need to learn.

I think I made a mistake in selling to properties I owned, as I was focused on collecting the short term gain (though in my defence the CG on the two places over 5 years of holding was over 300k). I would like to get back into property ownership but all my rational thinking is telling me to stay out until the CG potential and Yield levels come back to a more realistic level. Again, this is for my targeted market, I'm not in anyway excited about buying outside the major cities at the moment.
 
Baloo said:
I've worked out what direction I want to take, but I guess I am being impatient in trying to predict the general direction of my targetted market over the next couple of years. I guess it doesn't bode well that I am already impatient without holding anything at the moment, it's something I need to learn.

I think I made a mistake in selling to properties I owned, as I was focused on collecting the short term gain (though in my defence the CG on the two places over 5 years of holding was over 300k). I would like to get back into property ownership but all my rational thinking is telling me to stay out until the CG potential and Yield levels come back to a more realistic level. Again, this is for my targeted market, I'm not in anyway excited about buying outside the major cities at the moment.
Baloo,

Sounds like you'd be more comfortable as a share trader.

As a property investor, you can buy anytime in the property cycle - because you'll make money in the long-term (and you buy well).

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Baloo,

Get this months BRW - 200 Richest Australians. Read the article on Kerry Packer - he's happy selling at the top on the market - he is quoted as saying 'he never sells anything he can't buy back later at a lower price'. He has been sitting on about $1B cash for a year, just waiting. Everyone does it differently, so listen to your 'rational thinking' and do it YOUR way.
 
Here's the AFR's view on the dueling property figures:

Analysis: House prices - just who's right?
Jun 03 15:12
Jim Parker

In a week crammed with every economic indicator under the sun, there is only one that most people really care about. And no-one can agree on how to measure it.

House prices have dominated dinner party conversations for years. But now the tone of one-upmanship has extended to the nation's economists, who are in the midst of a catfight about which is the best property index.

The Reserve Bank kicked off the controversy in its quarterly monetary policy statement last month by highlighting some eye-popping research from a private sector organisation, showing house prices falling into a hole.

The RBA used the Australian Property Monitors data in the context of a statement which wrongfooted many financial market economists by playing down expectations of another rise in official interest rates.

Ever since then, some of those red-faced economists have been casting doubts about the reliability of the APM data, saying it exaggerated price falls.
Now, this camp has a weapon in the government statistician's own quarterly house price index - a weighted average of prices received for established homes in the state and territory capitals.

This shows prices nationally rose by 2.5 per cent in the March quarter, with all capital cities, except Melbourne, registering price gains.

The APM data, by contrast, showed prices falling in most cities, with Melbourne prices down 12.9 per cent in the quarter and Sydney slumping by 7.5 per cent.

Consequently, the economists who disbelieved the APM data in the first place were up on their high horses on Thursday. One accused the media of "alarmist" reporting, when it was the RBA that highlighted the data in the first place.

Complicating the picture, another series, complied by Residex, shows no change in Sydney prices for the first quarter, the Real Estate Institute shows a marginal increase, while the Housing Industry Association's shows a 3 per cent fall.

Who's right? Of course, no-one can agree. And market economists have an unerring tendency to favour the data which suits their own particular institution's call on interest rates.

But RBA highlighted the APM data because it is more timely than the Australian Bureau of Statistics' series. That's because it records prices at the exchange of contracts, not when transactions are settled.

The ABS itself admits that in the commentary attached to Thursday's data.
In other words, the government statistician's series is a lagging indicator of what's really going on in the property market.

But there are problems with the private sector house price measures, as well. Most of them are affected by compositional changes. For instance, there may be more sales in a high price region than a low price region.

The ABS data seeks to deal with this by stratifying the sales of houses by geographic area.

"There's definitely room for debate about the scale of the fall in house prices," says Macquarie Bank's interest rate strategist Rory Robertson. "But it's a big call to say the RBA has got it wrong.
Source: The Australian Financial Review, June 3rd 2004

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Aceyducey said:
Also interesting is that nationally median prices have never fallen in recorded history.....only specific markets have had falls....even during so-called property busts.

:)



Cheers,

Aceyducey

Thats very interesting Acey.

As i have seen the same charts on median prices never falling but where I live the prices have comeback 10-15%. Last week I was in Byron Bay and a particular boutique agency 8 of the 10 listings had there prices slashed between 12-20 % . The prices that were slashed were the same prices that were being acheived in that street close to 12 months ago.

Im curuios to know why this type of observed drops has still kept the median constant. Maybe no of sales really has a great effect....
 
On the crash theme, recession, interest rates. Has anyone been followoing the comments from BIS shrapnel as they appear on TV randomly or in the print...is it just me or has the tone softened slightly depending on which adviser/economist is speaking.
 
Back in Melbourne today I just sold for -17% less than I was quoted end of last year and -11% than a real offer I rejected 5 months ago of course back then REA said they could get more, silly me believed! (of course I didnt expect the top of the quoted range, but I believed the agent could get more)

Crash or Slow down? Certainly in stocks -10% or even -17% drop is not considered a crash. But for me today it's a terrible disappointment.

AL is now going to crawl back under a rock where I belong!
 
always_learning said:
Back in Melbourne today I just sold for -17% less than I was quoted end of last year and -11% than a real offer I rejected 5 months ago of course back then REA said they could get more, silly me believed! (of course I didnt expect the top of the quoted range, but I believed the agent could get more)

Crash or Slow down? Certainly in stocks -10% or even -17% drop is not considered a crash. But for me today it's a terrible disappointment.

AL is now going to crawl back under a rock where I belong!

Well only thing is it dented there commission a little bit...bad luck AL
 
always_learning said:
AL is now going to crawl back under a rock where I belong!

Always Learning,

Going by your name, i doubt you'll be doing this.

Is this the development involving Metropole?

all the best,
A86
 
superted said:
On the crash theme, recession, interest rates. Has anyone been followoing the comments from BIS shrapnel as they appear on TV randomly or in the print...is it just me or has the tone softened slightly depending on which adviser/economist is speaking.

Superted

No, it is not just you, BIS's tone has softened over the past few months (certainly over the time I have been on this forum).

Yesterday Frank Gelber (BIS Chief Economist) had this to say:

Cheap cash holds house prices - for now

Indeed, we expect a substantial round of interest rate rises in 2005-06 as the Reserve Bank considerably tightens monetary policy to contain emerging demand inflationary pressure in labour and product markets. We're looking at bank bill rates going from about 5.5 per cent to just under 9 per cent and housing rates, currently just over 7 per cent, approaching 10 per cent.

And that will kill the housing market, with falls in residential construction and property prices in 2006-07.

It's too late to invest in housing now. Forget all that talk about ignoring cycles and it doesn't matter when you buy. Forget about the argument that if you don't get into the market now, you never will. If it were me, I'd wait until the end of the decade when the fallout is over.



Earlier in the piece Gelber was predicting variable mortgage rates in the vicinity of 10.5% which I have said before (and will say again) would be political suicide for whichever party is in power at that time.

However, interest rates up to the magical double-digit point (which has some pyschological significance) are another ballgame.

While I struggle to understand the drivers (behind inflation) to which he refers and, at this point, disagree with his predictions - he does keep making these noises and 2005-06 is not that far away.

Irrespective of my views on his views, I must confess that I very much enjoy reading his articles.

MB
 
superted said:
Well only thing is it dented there commission a little bit...bad luck AL

I changed agents! The new agent is an excellent salesman in a 360 degree's way!

Actually I have hearsay that the agency I used was using my "overpriced" property as a lead in softener to potential buyers in the area :mad: . My property was shown first (or drive past) to a prospect; look at this one for $3xx :eek: , now let me take you to one almost as good/better for $2xx!

So that agency of course didnt get any commission from me, but they got use of a good marketing tool to sell other properties.

You live and learn! B.S disguised in 1/2 truths are really tough to expose quickly, particularly when you are far away from the source and cannot get 360 degrees of information from multiple sources.

Back to under my rock!
 
always_learning said:
Actually I have hearsay that the agency I used was using my "overpriced" property as a lead in softener to potential buyers in the area :mad: . My property was shown first (or drive past) to a prospect; look at this one for $3xx :eek: , now let me take you to one almost as good/better for $2xx!

I was so tempted to say that..as i have seen that personnally happen (using a property to sell off against others). Its a bit like when u go into a shop thats sells tvs the one with the bad picture (not tuned in properly) is used to sell the one with the good picture..the good one also has the most margin, funny that.

But as i said glad u said it first then the REA's wont jump on me for making things up :)
 
Pitt St said:
Superted

No, it is not just you, BIS's tone has softened over the past few months (certainly over the time I have been on this forum).

Yesterday Frank Gelber (BIS Chief Economist) had this to say:

Cheap cash holds house prices - for now

Indeed, we expect a substantial round of interest rate rises in 2005-06 as the Reserve Bank considerably tightens monetary policy to contain emerging demand inflationary pressure in labour and product markets. We're looking at bank bill rates going from about 5.5 per cent to just under 9 per cent and housing rates, currently just over 7 per cent, approaching 10 per cent.

And that will kill the housing market, with falls in residential construction and property prices in 2006-07.

It's too late to invest in housing now. Forget all that talk about ignoring cycles and it doesn't matter when you buy. Forget about the argument that if you don't get into the market now, you never will. If it were me, I'd wait until the end of the decade when the fallout is over.



Earlier in the piece Gelber was predicting variable mortgage rates in the vicinity of 10.5% which I have said before (and will say again) would be political suicide for whichever party is in power at that time.

However, interest rates up to the magical double-digit point (which has some pyschological significance) are another ballgame.

While I struggle to understand the drivers (behind inflation) to which he refers and, at this point, disagree with his predictions - he does keep making these noises and 2005-06 is not that far away.

Irrespective of my views on his views, I must confess that I very much enjoy reading his articles.

MB

I cant remmeber names but it was their head guy that was doom and gloomy several months back but just recently it was a much younger guy with the softly approach. Had to think to myself ..hangon arent these guys from the same company?
 
always_learning said:
Back in Melbourne today I just sold for -17% less than I was quoted end of last year and -11% than a real offer I rejected 5 months ago of course back then REA said they could get more, silly me believed! (of course I didnt expect the top of the quoted range, but I believed the agent could get more)

Crash or Slow down? Certainly in stocks -10% or even -17% drop is not considered a crash. But for me today it's a terrible disappointment.

AL is now going to crawl back under a rock where I belong!
I gather then that you felt that holding onto them was not an option? wasn't that one of the exit strategies which Michael had mentioned?
 
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