Sydney's hot , Vote before you read

Sydneys moving , Where will it go now ?

  • Boom baby boom . Double in next 1-2 years

    Votes: 12 8.7%
  • Very strong medium term growth . Double in next 3-5 years

    Votes: 21 15.2%
  • Steady long term growth . Double in next 6-8 years

    Votes: 49 35.5%
  • Slow long term growth . Over ten years to double

    Votes: 32 23.2%
  • Sideways movement for at least several more years

    Votes: 8 5.8%
  • Market over heated and will drop slightly over next several years

    Votes: 6 4.3%
  • Over heated . will drop by 10- 20 % in next years

    Votes: 7 5.1%
  • Last Gasp before markets Crash and burn ( and Steve Keen writes his autobiography )

    Votes: 3 2.2%

  • Total voters
    138
  • Poll closed .
Ok folks

So Sydney's moving . What does this mean ?

Please Vote before you read any debate which might sway you initial thoughts.

Cliff
 
When you ask "double" in relation to what starting point exactly?

Hasnt Syd already increased?

What part of Syd?

too many sub discussions really.
 
Boom vote for me. Might be wishful thinking but, I am not about to go against the cyclical nature of property, which is double every 10 years.
 
I voted steady growth, double in 8 years or so. I can't see how an average 500k property now is going to cost 1 mil in a year or two. Affordability is already shot as it is.
 
I am not about to go against the cyclical nature of property, which is double every 10 years.

Oh dear.... certain property in certain areas may double in a decade (7% annualised growth required to double in a decade). Most everything else trundles along at a much lower % per annum. The old "property doubles every 7-10 years" line doesnt apply to the bulk of the Australian property market.
 
I think it will simmer down for a few years to come. I see mild "doom and gloom" ahead (for the unprepared - i'm actually looking forward to easy pickings...).
 
My thoughts .

It's hard to predict when a market enters the start of a new Property Cycle .

My thoughts are , in retrospect ( I hate that word ... ), the up swing started in the middle of last year.

My thoughts are that we are entering a period of strong growth that will lead to the sydney market doubling over a period of between 3 - 6 years ( I deliberately didn't put that in as an option )

Why ?

Sydney Historically doubles Every so many years . In the last cycle it took around 13-14 years from around 1990 to 2003 , so with the last ten years being relatively flat we're over due.

Affordability is good at the moment . The low interest rates are a large factor in this , but I can't see the reserve bank putting rates up significantly any time soon . They're still talking about rates going down . As the market goes up , they will put rates up slightly , but given the low base , a small increase will have a bigger impact than a large increase from a base of higher rates . I think the market will be sensitive to rate increase . The RBA know this and don't want a crash anytime soon . Give them around 3-4 years minimum unless we have a dramatic boom .

Rental returns around good in good areas of sydney. Not sure about this week , but in the last month we have seen nice units in the lower northern beaches selling for that 500 / 500 rent / price ratio . Combined with historically low rates that makes these properties historically very affordable . There has been strong rental growth in these ares over the last few years . We looked at these properties a few years ago and a typical rent was 400 for 600 . Given those holding costs we didn't buy but we have bought since.

Places are selling for below replacement value . This occurs at the lower end of the market . At the top of the market , properties sell for more than their replacement value.

A strong Property market , price increases , increased building will be part of the next economic upswing . it will create confidence and and that will feed back to further increases in prices.


We have an election coming up . I think that the liberal win ( I think ) will give us a reason to be more hopeful . Tony Abbott has been incredibly successful as a doom and gloom merchant , portraying the market as a Basket case due to labor mismanagement ( ? with the help from the media ) . I don't think the community wants to hear this message now and I think there are vested interests who want the liberals to be successful. I think any doom and gloom messages from the labor opposition will be ignored and not given credence by the main stream media .

I've been told there is much money waiting on the sidelines for a favorable liberal government before it gets invested. This will be another factor in creating economic growth , personal wealth and further fueling the property market.

We are coming out of a period of economic hardship ( actually really not that bad in Australia ) affecting most of the world. China's growth dropped to levels that would have had the RBA slamming the brakes on with oversized steel capped boots . The USA economy has been showing signs of reccovery for a while . Finally the worlds basket case, Europe , is showing signs of a successful resus.

Psychologically , as a community , we're tired of thrift and restraint . People are looking for a reason to be hopeful so they are ready for a period of irrational exuberance. Enough time has passed for the community to forget the mistakes that occurred at the end and the hurt it caused . Only those who were hurt them selves , or people who know them will remember .

The new generation coming through will hear comments of be careful as conservative because it's different this time. The current generation know everything and don't need advice from their parents . If they're not sure how to do something , why read the manual , There's a youtube video , from some stranger they're never met . It must be good it has 5 mill hits . I have three kids , 19, 22 & 24 . They have a combination of extreme wisdom and at times ..... sigh.....

My personal hope is that those members who were hurt , aren't put off and stay on the side lines . Everyone makes mistakes . Learn and move on . My other hope is that when the market does get over heated , which it will ,people see and heed the warnings signs.

Finally and most importantly , there has been an increase in activity on this forum .

Cliff
 
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When you ask "double" in relation to what starting point exactly?

Hasnt Syd already increased?

What part of Syd?

too many sub discussions really.

Double from the peak of the last market .

Eg typical 3 bedder fibro in 2770 might have sold 220 - 240 at the last peak .

In the preceding period it might have gone for as low as 170 . I think it will eventually go up to around 440 - 480 . This might seem outrageous topeople at this stage . In the previous cycle the peak was around 100k and in the trough after that they sold for around 60 K . So for those who bought then 60 K to 220 was a nice return . If I'm right 170 ( or lower ...) to 440 - 480 will be a nice return for the 2770 brigade.

I maybe be wrong and on occasions am :eek:. I thought we would have seen stronger growth centrally in Sydney before we saw the growth we are seeing in 2770 . I think the internet in terms of spreading information has been largely responsible for this.

Cliff
 
My thoughts .

It's hard to predict when a market enters the start of a new Property Cycle .

My thoughts are , in retrospect ( I hate that word ... ), the up swing started in the middle of last year.

My thoughts are that we are entering a period of strong growth that will lead to the sydney market doubling over a period of between 3 - 6 years ( I deliberately didn't put that in as an option )

Why ?

Sydney Historically doubles Every so many years . In the last cycle it took around 13-14 years from around 1990 to 2003 , so with the last ten years being relatively flat we're over due.

Affordability is good at the moment . The low interest rates are a large factor in this , but I can't see the reserve bank putting rates up significantly any time soon . They're still talking about rates going down . As the market goes up , they will put rates up slightly , but given the low base , a small increase will have a bigger impact than a large increase from a base of higher rates . I think the market will be sensitive to rate increase . The RBA know this and don't want a crash anytime soon . Give them around 3-4 years minimum unless we have a dramatic boom .

Rental returns around good in good areas of sydney. Not sure about this week , but in the last month we have seen nice units in the lower northern beaches selling for that 500 / 500 rent / price ratio . Combined with historically low rates that makes these properties historically very affordable . There has been strong rental growth in these ares over the last few years . We looked at these properties a few years ago and a typical rent was 400 for 600 . Given those holding costs we didn't buy but we have bought since.

Places are selling for below replacement value . This occurs at the lower end of the market . At the top of the market , properties sell for more than their replacement value.

A strong Property market , price increases , increased building will be part of the next economic upswing . it will create confidence and and that will feed back to further increases in prices.


We have an election coming up . I think that the liberal win ( I think ) will give us a reason to be more hopeful . Tony Abbott has been incredibly successful as a doom and gloom merchant , portraying the market as a Basket case due to labor mismanagement ( ? with the help from the media ) . I don't think the community wants to hear this message now and I think there are vested interests who want the liberals to be successful. I think any doom and gloom messages from the labor opposition will be ignored and not given credence by the main stream media .

I've been told there is much money waiting on the sidelines for a favorable liberal government before it gets invested. This will be another factor in creating economic growth , personal wealth and further fueling the property market.

We are coming out of a period of economic hardship ( actually really not that bad in Australia ) affecting most of the world. China's growth dropped to levels that would have had the RBA slamming the brakes on with oversized steel capped boots . The USA economy has been showing signs of reccovery for a while . Finally the worlds basket case, Europe , is showing signs of a successful resus.

Psychologically , as a community , we're tired of thrift and restraint . People are looking for a reason to be hopeful so they are ready for a period of irrational exuberance. Enough time has passed for the community to forget the mistakes that occurred at the end and the hurt it caused . Only those who were hurt them selves , or people who know them will remember .

The new generation coming through will hear comments of be careful as conservative because it's different this time. The current generation know everything and don't need advice from their parents . If they're not sure how to do something , why read the manual , There's a youtube video , from some stranger they're never met . It must be good it has 5 mill hits . I have three kids , 19, 22 & 24 . They have a combination of extreme wisdom and and at times ..... sigh.....

My personal hope is that those members who were hurt , aren't put off and stay on the side lines . Everyone makes mistakes . Learn and move on . My other hope is that when the market does get over heated , which it will ,people see and heed the warnings signs.

Finally and most importantly , there has been an increase in activity on this forum .

Cliff

Hi Cliff,
Great post yes me and my partner have always tried to educate our kids about property but as you said they just know everything and oh yes the old saying (Later) I am still young,you have to laugh
 
Hi Cliff,
Great post yes me and my partner have always tried to educate our kids about property but as you said they just know everything and oh yes the old saying (Later) I am still young,you have to laugh

Having said that, you also didn't start early, yes?
 
Having said that, you also didn't start early, yes?


I did't start early either . Reason I didn't have the knowledge .

There's a medical saying

See one , Do one , teach one . ( part of the reason why I'm here )

I know my children do listen to what I say , though maybe not as much as I'd like . We all have too make our own mistake , but hopefully not big ones.

Telling them about property investing , and having had them see the rewards that can come from doing it , means that they can make their decisions from a position of knowledge than from ignorance .

cliff
 
Having said that, you also didn't start early, yes?

Yes that is true,but I did not have parents in my life to guide me unfortunately about realestate and the wealth it can produce,but all I have learnt over the years I wish to bestow onto my kids in saying that though my investing started late but i bought my first home at 20 years of age so yes only my real knowledge has been over the last 7 years in investing
.
 
I can see pockets of the Inner West potentially maintaining average growth of 7-8%+ p.a. for the next 5-7 years. My money is on Marrickville (in particular), to be an exceptional performer over this period. I've lived there almost a decade, so this is based on some ground-level experience/awareness. 2013 has seen huge growth, and there's no sign of slowing down.

I'm not familiar enough with the wider market to take an educated punt but if we're guessing (may as well, I'll revisit this post down the track and see how far off I was), my sweeping statement:

1-2.5 years of 6-7% p.a. growth followed 5 years of 3-4% p.a. growth.

Just because I can.
 
Good post Cliff,
Not invested in Sydney but hopefully Sydney's increase will spill over to the regionals :)
Speaking to a few guys in the office they are keen to buy in Sydney because they don’t want to miss the “boom”. They have friends and relatives that have seen good capital growth and are hoping for the same.
 
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