teach us to fish



From: Michelle Riley

I've decided what I want is an IP
expert to teach me how to fish.
I keep reading about the great deals that
some of you have the the knack of acquiring.
I'm impressed but I want to know how to fish for myself.
Where do you buy?What do you buy?How do you
negotiate?Walk us through a few deals.
Not just,"I bought a house for... and sold it
I want a personal trainer.
Not talking about negative gearing even a novice like myself has got that one down.As everyone keeps saying,go for the capital growth.
Let's say I want to buy a positive geared
property with good CAPITAL GROWTH,preferably
close to home.
I don't want to pay a buyers agent so I'm none the wiser and have to keep coming back to expand my portfolio.
I don't want to buy from a flipper and never
know how to do it for myself.
I don't want to spend thousands on seminars etc.I want my money in my pocket.
Perhaps I want too much.No harm in asking as they say.
Cast your nets of wisdom upon us so we can go forth and be fishers of deals,like the TW says(not at all a fisher wife)spread the

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Reply: 1
From: Michael Yardney

Michelle. You want all the answers from a personal trainer and it seems you don’t want to pay the price. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS.
When you are first starting out, I believe you should focus your time and efforts on a narrow market area and get to know it like the back of your hand, develop what I call you "comfort zone".
The 4 steps to building a comfort zone are:-
1. Establish a Geographic Territory.
The first step is to decide where your investment zone will be. Begin with an area of past high capital growth that contains affordable properties.
2. Become an expert in that Territory.
The good bit about this is that everything will occur within your defined local area. This means that any determined investor can become an expert in their chosen territory in a short time.
Get to know prices rents, local agents, employment trends,future plans, local planning rules etc.
Inspect at least 100 properties before you put in your 1st offer.
3. Build the Investment techniques required
While you are learning about your geographic comfort zone, you should also learn other skill you will require such as negotiating techniques and an understanding of finance and tax laws as well as risk minimisation.
These will become your tools to building a multimillion dollar investment portfolio
4. Act on Opportunities.
When you get the feel for your comfort zone, there will be a sudden shift of what you actually see. Once you know your geographic territory like the back of your hand, opportunities / bargains will stand out to you.
Don’t look for shortcuts, it takes hard work to build up this knowledge, but it pays off
Have a great week...make it a great week!
Michael Yardney Metropole Properties
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Reply: 2
From: Marshall Brentnall

Hi Michelle

I agree with Michael, in that there are few if any short cuts in life.

It is simply a matter of what you are willing to go through to achieve your objectives, which will undoubtedly involve asking many many questions and making mistakes.

Talk to agents, lots of them. Ask them questions, lots of them - (eg Why do the vendors need to sell? Do you have any other properties that may fit my criteria?. Lok at properties, lots of them. Although I do not necessarily believe you need to see 100 - as I found a good opportunity after approx 4 weeks of searching - the only way that I stumbled across it was by asking the agent lots of questions and telling him what I was after.

On the mistakes front we all make them, I now know that I probably could have secured the property for $200 instead of $210 - but it was my first acquisition and I will learn from it.

Read....read....and read. Go to auctions and look at how the people interact....and above all when you are getting close to D Day be prepared!

Enough rantings!!

With regard to fishing, what type are you interested in learning? :)
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Reply: 3
From: Apprentice Millionaire

Hi Michelle,

>I want a personal trainer.

In the old forum, I started a thread on a similar topic, and always referred to the subject: I was looking for a mentor. And what you and I are looking for is someone who does not have a vested interest in guiding us towards wealth. But the prerequisite is that we do our homework. A mentor is there as a sounding board, a prompter, a motivator. And the saying: "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear" is true.

I haven't found a mentor, but I have found lots of good advice on this forum. What I have done, is approached a buyer's agent for my first IP, and hopefully next week I will also meet a flipper who might find something for me. I know the advice on this forum has been: go and do it and do it so you learn from your mistakes. I will heed this advice, but for my first IP, I have "bought" an adviser. As my buyer's agent is out there looking, I keep asking questions, and questioning everything that is said.

So in the process I am learning. But I have come to the conclusion that if you want to learn, you have to pay. Either through your own mistakes, or for someone to teach you.

As for fishing, there are so many different types: deep sea fishermen, anglers, underwater divers... Which one do you want? It's the same thing in IP: what type of IP investor do you want to become? In any event, you have to go through the apprenticeship. Hence my pseudonym :)

Go do it Michelle! You can do it!

Apprentice Millionaire
(aka Jacques in the old forum)
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Reply: 3.1
From: Robert Forward

G'day AM

You got it with your last posting. There is always a price for education. How much really depends on you.

Though, I do have a difference with one thing you say.

QUOTE "I was looking for a mentor. And what you and I are looking for is someone who does not have a vested interest in guiding us towards wealth." UNQUOTE

Why would a mentor not have a vested interest in you being wealthy. Because the way I see it for example, if I was your mentor and I knew you were going to be wealthy, I know it would also make me wealthy.

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Reply: 3.1.1
From: Apprentice Millionaire

Hi Robert!

Looking forward to meeting you at the cashflow game in Melbourne!

>Why would a mentor not have a vested interest in you being
>wealthy. Because the way I see it for example, if I was your
>mentor and I knew you were going to be wealthy, I know it
>would also make me wealthy.

I see your point. And I also see that it would work that way for you as a flipper, because you would teach me to flip, and I would learn as you do it. But if I wanted to just learn negotiation skills, and I know you are good at that, I would come to you and present my ideas to you. You would then guide me, and through mistakes I would learn. But you wouldn't necessarily become wealthy on the basis of my learning negotiating skills. Unless you charge me for the lessons, in which case we are talking about a tutor or teacher, not a mentor.

Of course we could be talking of another type of wealth, which is the satisfaction of having helped someone move closer to his or her goal!

Apprentice Millionaire
(aka Jacques in the old forum)
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Reply: 4
From: The Wife

Gee Michelle,

Your post has really frustrated me, I did say spread the word, yes. And I still believe in spreading the word.

But I cant tell you how many times people have asked me things like, teach me how to fish. And what they really want, is for me to guarantee that they will make money.

Thats basically it, they want a guarantee, now if what I tell them doesnt work for them, they will be upset, say they had a bad teacher.

Michelle, I would love to teach you how to fish, cause I am sure I can, I've caught quite a few fish in my day, I aint doin to bad, but I only catch the fish I like, If I hook something on the line i dont like, i let it go, sometimes its something I have never seen before, and I let it go. I only like MY kinds of fish.

What I would like from you Michelle, is a guarantee that you wont stuff up and blame me, that you wont put limits on me by saying, "no, i dont like your fish, i want you to show me how to be succesfull with my own fish"...I dont want you to say, "show me how to be succesfull MY way", I dont know your way....

And the thing is, and I have said it before, there is NO magic pill....bo special lure that will bring the fish rushing to your hook,

you throw your hook out there just like everybody else does.

The difference is, some people get tired of fishing, and they go home empty handed, some dont watch their line, and off it goes towed out to sea by a shark, some people are just plain silly and dont even bother baiting their hook.

Its the fisherperson who can stand there, with baited hook, who keeps recasting, who has the determination to stay on the shoreline till they catch a fish, who keeps watching the water , the tides, the flocks of birds overhead, the person who is really trying to read the signs of where the fish are...that is the succesfull fisherperson, they will eventually catch a fish, and they will eventually get very good at it.

And then whilst standing there trying to figure out why your not getting a bite, you watch the sun go down, and everyone else is leaving the beach, but look around you, there is the rest of us die hards, some of us reeling in fish as fast as can be, drinking beer, having a natter to our friends also fishing, then you have found your likeminded friends.

Approach your likeminded friends and ask them, hey, how did you catch that big 14 pound juicy white fish? And how did you sell it so quickly, for so much?

Well the person you asked isnt going to reel their line in to tell you about it, they are going to keep on fishing, and yap yap yap, tell you about it, and they will keep on fishing, and they will be laughing how they did it, and gesture wildly about the size of the fish, the fight it put up, how great it was to sell it.

Its now up to you apprentice Michelle fisherperson, are you REALLY looking at what they are telling you? listen carefully, look where they are pointing to in the ocean, look back up the beach to the place that they are pointing to that bought their fish, this succesfull fisherperson is opening up their mouth, and telling you everything you need to know.

Are they going to put their rod down and come over and cast yours out for you? no i dont think so, but its up to you to listen to them, to watch them, to try to mimmic them, and then actully go back to your rod, pick it up, bait it the way they told you, and throw your line, give it a go, you are now wiser, when you cast, your casting with greater knowledge.

So what about the fisherperson who isnt fishing anymore, can they come stand by you and show you how to do it? No, they are tucked up in bed, they dont have the desire or need to be on the beach's anymore. You will have to learn from those still on the beach, and learn before they dont need to be there anymore.

The thing is,

its the doing,

you can talk about it all you like, but you have to actually do it,

if you dont know where to start, your going to have to go sit quietly, and watch the expert, watch what they do, how they do it.

You may have to try different parts of the beach, you may not like what some people are pulling in, or you may not like the way they kill thier fish, some people can be so inhumane, but watch and make your choice, that is how you will define your own style.
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Reply: 4.1
From: Ross E

Thanks for that, I think it's so good I just had to print it out, I know a few people that may get some benefit from it. I know I have.
Would like to meet you one day, may be next time your in Brsi...cashflow....

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Reply: 4.1.1
From: Ruby .

Well, what can you say but how inspirational. I'm with Red, I had to print it out as well.

Great job TW. Thanks.

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Reply: 4.2
From: Apprentice Millionaire

The Wife,

That was superb! Absolutely fantastic!

Now *that* is what I expect from a mentor: a push along, encouragement, motivation, advice.

Thanks, The Wife! It's one of the best posts I have read on this forum!

Apprentice Millionaire
(aka Jacques in the old forum)
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Reply: 4.2.1
From: Anthony C

Great Stuff!
Was waiting for your reply on this one.
One thing however, The line about watching other fishermen and mimic thing, I Think that we need more examples of good fishing.

For example had this scenario the other day, came across this hurdle, tried this strategy, and hey presto caught a big fish.

More Real life examples of success strategies and failures.


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From: The Wife

Hiya Ant :eek:)

Well the best way to get that sort of information from fisherpeople, is to organise a fishing comp. of sorts :eek:)...like a big get together :eek:)...and then ask them about the one that got away, and how they plan to catch it next time etc etc....
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teach us to fish - for Michelle & TW (long)

Reply: 4.3
From: Nigel W


There's some powerful allegory in TW's post - powerful stuff indeed! And you should print it out and read it and think about it.

To try to convert it into reality for you I'll give you an example. I'm still fairly early along the road to riches - but perhaps a bit further advanced than u.

Yesterday I closed the deal to buy property no 2. [actually I like to think of it as property 6 as its a multiple dwelling] on a property that will return over 11% and has the "x" factor of room to build some more units on it, ie ADD VALUE. I LEARNED from Geoff1's comments and others that you don't just buy a unit - you buy the whole block!

I got it for a discount of 45K less than it was listed for - and it was listed at a good price too. I LISTENED to Geoff1, TW and others who keep saying you MUST KNOW YOUR VALUES. (if you valued on yield alone - which u don't but its a guide - this property is worth at least $60K more than I paid for it)

I don't say this to brag - because I'm sure there are heaps of investors who are getting returns of 15%+ and very strong cap growth (my CG will be moderate - but my strategy at this stage is cashflow!). What I want to tell you is:

1) it is possible
2) but only with persistence - (I work long hours and I had to be prepared to SACRIFICE a fair bit of weekend and after work time to chase the deals)
3) and a little knowledge - (but after some intensive research, & some reading of the great books that are out now you should pick most of that up along the way - and will continue to do so every time you look at a property, talk to an agent or adviser, put in an offer etc).

I have been looking since May 2000 for this 2nd property. Over that time I've finally determined my NICHE ie what criteria a property must meet before I'll go for it and developed a PLAN or STRATEGY for what I want to do and how long I figure its going to take.

I counted up the other day the number of properties I'd looked at in just the last month of that search - guess how many I've looked at....19. Number of offers 5.

Having been reasonably consistent in my search since May 2000 I've probably looked at 100-150 over that period. - I've got 2 folders full of notes, pictures cut out from ads and open house flyers.

In closing - no reward without effort!

If you want a quick easy guide I'd suggest the following:

1) buy & read the Jan Somers books, Property Power by Barnes, John Burley's australian book, O'Reilly's anyone can be a millionaire & rich dad poor dad.
2) read them again
3) research your chosen suburb/s and get to know the values
4) plan your goals and figure out how many houses/deals you need to achieve your goals
5) get a good accountant, laywer, quantity surveyor
6) shake off analysis paralysis and get out and make offers - make them low to start with - put them in writing - make them subject to finance and just go for it!

Best of luck - don't give up - only YOU can make it happen

enough evangelising for now ;-)

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teach us to fish - for Michelle & TW (long)

Reply: 4.3.1
From: Michelle Riley

Thank you so much to all who replied.
I'm sorry TW felt frustrated but it
appears your frustration brought out your best and many will benefit from your response.
I was most interested in what Jacques had to
Nigel,looking since May 2000,that is persistence.Thanks for sharing the details.
I think some of you perhaps have the idea
that I haven't read a book or made an offer
or even know my area.
Not correct.
Michael don't worry I know my town very well.
If I wanted to negative gear,wouldn't
have to leave the street.Just bought a house
around the corner,signed contract today.
I speak to agents almost daily.I'm the one telling them what's going on in towns around us.
Anyway,I've made a start.
In fact I sell a factory next week and pocket
a small profit.

Picked up a few more ideas.
Persistence is vital and I'll look for a book
on negotiating skills.
I hope my post helped others as well as myself.
Cheers Michelle
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