Tenant has installed swimming pool in back yard

[vaughan]

I just did an inspection (with the agent) for a tenant who has been there for a couple of years. Always paid rent on time.

They have installed a small above ground pool in the back yard. I thought little of it, but the agent FREAKED OUT because there is no fencing around it and it's not had any approval from us or council.

Forget the fact that they have installed stuff in the house without notice (like tv antenna on roof and ethernet wiring under the house into every room), have both a cat and a dog (it was a no-pets rental), are smoking inside the house (agreed to only smoke outside), have killed the front lawn by driving and parking their cars over it, and have let all the gardens die. Forget all that piddly little stuff. This pool has the agent Very Worried Indeed, worried enough that they will be sending the tenant a letter before COB today instructing them to immediately remove the pool or install approved fencing.

Wow. That was a surprise.

Ok Dazz, do it. Nice and slow, just the way I like it...

 

[Dazz]

Situation normal in my neck of the woods Vaughan.

Adult Australians flagrantly disobeying "the rules" because they haven't read the rules and couldn't give a stuff anyway.

No biggy.

 

[pinkboy]

Its as simple as:


.....I dont want to tell you 'I told you so', but..............


pinkboy

 

[weg]

If you're that worried about the pool then ring the council.

They're the ones with the authority to make the tenants pull it down or erect a fence.

Puts the ball in their court and covers you.

Personally I'd be more concerned with how the PM is screening tenants and how they deal with tenants who wreck or damage property.

 

[DaveM]

Have the agent write them a letter.

"Welcome to Evictionville. Population: you"

 

[wylie]

If you're that worried about the pool then ring the council.

They're the ones with the authority to make the tenants pull it down or erect a fence.

Puts the ball in their court and covers you.

I'm not so sure that should something happen you (as owner) will not be held liable. This is an interesting question though.

I'm thinking back to when a tenant in an IP my parents owned decided to set up classes from the house without asking. My parents found out when the other tenant told them.

This lady didn't have insurance to cover these classes, and the risk (I believe) fell on my parents as owners. They insisted on sighting a policy but the lady was not prepared to take out such a policy and they asked her leave, which she did.

Another time a tenant wanted to start a home business filling gas tanks under the timber house. Insurers refused to cover him and my parents suggested he find a property that suited his business more than an "under the house" set up. I'm guessing he didn't make the mistake a second time of asking permission to start this business. The next landlord might never have found out what risks he was taking until he blew the house apart or someone was killed in a gas explosion.

In both cases, they found out by chance that the tenant was taking on a risk and in both cases I believe their not knowing would not have protected them from a claim had something bad happened.

 

[weg]

Who knows. People try to sue over anything nowadays.

If someone was filling gas tanks under my IP, or had numerous people coming to the house to buy goods, or used it as a day care centre, or a mechanics workshop, or fulltime hairdressing salon, I would intervene.

If they were making a wedding cake or 2 per week to sell, cutting the odd persons hair, or doing the odd computer repair from home, or looking after their sisters 2 children 3 days a week, I wouldn't care.

Like vaughan if I saw a 'small above ground pool' (or spa for that matter) I wouldn't think too much of it because it's the pull up pull down/move type thing.

That's just me.

If I saw a large above ground structure I wouldn't 'FREAK OUT' as the agent did, but i would tell the tenants that I would need to get advice from the council on what fencing they would be required to erect.

 

[wylie]

I agree with what you are saying weg. We've had a tenant running a business from home and as long as he wasn't having clients visit the home he was fine. Once you start blurring the lines about these businesses is when the trouble can start.

We've had other tenants running a business from home where clients did come into the house. We just ensured we had a copy of their public liability policy, because (my understanding) our public liability policy would not cover them if someone slipped or hurt themselves.

Of course, what is to say the insurance isn't cancelled without us ever knowing. We just minimise the risks where we can.

 

[Tulamalula]

I recall a tragic case in the media a couple of years back where a baby drowned in a pool in a rental property and the owner of the property was charged as the pool wasn't fenced. The owner was someone high profile I don't recall who. At any rate, as a mother of water loving toddlers I could never live with myself if something happened in a house I owned with an unfenced pool in it, whether it was my responsibility or not. Get the council involved, if they won't, get rid of the pool, or the tenant.

 

[Xjas]

Where would the line be between what is a structure and what is simply the tenats property? I would think any sort of free standing pool would simply be the tenants property similar to an item of furniture. If someone was injured or killed as a result of the pool it would be the tenats problem.
On another note, I hope your PM is charging them water usage, even small pools hold a lot of water.

 

[vaughan]

Where would the line be between what is a structure and what is simply the tenats property? I would think any sort of free standing pool would simply be the tenants property similar to an item of furniture. If someone was injured or killed as a result of the pool it would be the tenats problem.
On another note, I hope your PM is charging them water usage, even small pools hold a lot of water.

I did a quick google for pool laws and found something that started with "A property owner is responsible..." so that's probably why the agent is concerned.

To be honest the agent did not "freak out" -- that was my hyperbole, and I apologise -- but they were very serious about addressing the issue immediately and quite upset that the tenant had not requested permission. Remember that swimming pool legislation changed recently, and it's not a LOT tougher. I am not up on the law (I only know that dams in rural areas do not need fencing) but my quick reading indicates that now anything deeper than 300mm needs a fence around it: this includes pools, spas, water features and fountains.

Regarding the PM screening tenants: these are tenants that have paid on time, not broken anything, and seem keen to stay: the screening was good. Some people on the forums consider tenants that "improve" the property as keepers, other forum members consider tenants with pets as keepers. These seem to be both. I am only concerned they seem unable to keep to the terms of the lease agreement they signed.

I have instructed the agent to appraise the market and adjust the rent to cover pet damage, and to add appropriate conditions to the lease for cleaning and pest extermination.

Perhaps as landlords we should all be putting "no swimming pool" conditions into our leases.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlgho... Checklist - 6. Portable_Inflatable Pools.pdf

Even portable swimming pools will have to be registered:

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlgho...ming Pool Register - Questions & Answers.pdf

 

[vaughan]

I hope your PM is charging them water usage, even small pools hold a lot of water.

It's not for the PM to charge the tenant water usage. It's up to the landlord (me) to make sure the property is fitted with the appropriate water saving measures and there are no leaks at the start of the tenancy, and that the appropriate wording to enable the water consumption to be charged to the tenant is included in the lease.

 

[travelbug]

When taking out insurance they ask if it is used for business. You say no. If it is you are not covered.


Even if you weren't liable for anything going wrong regarding the pool beforehand you are now. That is because NOW you know about it so ignorance isn't an excuse (not that it is at anytime anyway).

 

[Bats]

I recall a tragic case in the media a couple of years back where a baby drowned in a pool in a rental property and the owner of the property was charged as the pool wasn't fenced. The owner was someone high profile I don't recall who. At any rate, as a mother of water loving toddlers I could never live with myself if something happened in a house I owned with an unfenced pool in it, whether it was my responsibility or not. Get the council involved, if they won't, get rid of the pool, or the tenant.

That particular case was Mark Harvey who was the coach of the Fremantle Dockers at that time.

I vaguely remember that Harvey was aware of the issue which was a brick BBQ built up against the pool fence. The agents had mentioned to Harvey several times that is was not safe as children could climb up on the BBQ and get over the fence. Of course that is what happened and Harvey was taken to Court - I don't remember the result.

I guess the main point was that Harvey as the owner was aware of the potential consequences hence the court action

 

[weg]

Where would the line be between what is a structure and what is simply the tenats property? I would think any sort of free standing pool would simply be the tenants property similar to an item of furniture. If someone was injured or killed as a result of the pool it would be the tenats problem.

You would think so.

This sounds heartless, but as upsetting as it would be, regardless of what the law stated, I would be able to live with myself if someone elses child drowned in THEIR small above ground pool, under THEIR supervision.

I fully expect a pool to be the LL responsibility if it came with the house (and it is), but think it's crazy if a LL assumes this when the tenant buys one from Big W and erects it themselves.

The situation would be no different to a tenant buying a dangerous breed dog and if that dog were to injure someone the LL would be deemed responsible .

 

[weg]

Even portable swimming pools will have to be registered:

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlgho...ming Pool Register - Questions & Answers.pdf

In regards to registering, it clearly states here that it's the pool owners responsibility.

 

[Tulamalula]

I doubt the law would find against the LL if s/he had no knowledge of the pool; what were these tenants thinking, constructing an above ground pool in someone else's yard? I can understand one of those inflatable things, but this sounds like a whole lot more.

 

[TMNT]

That particular case was Mark Harvey who was the coach of the Fremantle Dockers at that time.

I vaguely remember that Harvey was aware of the issue which was a brick BBQ built up against the pool fence. The agents had mentioned to Harvey several times that is was not safe as children could climb up on the BBQ and get over the fence. Of course that is what happened and Harvey was taken to Court - I don't remember the result.

I guess the main point was that Harvey as the owner was aware of the potential consequences hence the court action

I'm not a big afl fan but wasn't there another afl player , thought it was st kilda who had an.investment property in which a child drowned because of inadequate fencing and he almost got into trouble?

Damn, I wish my tenants would repaint the house, install a new kitchen, landscape the garden, build a granny flat for me without my knowledge

 

[vaughan]

I'm not a big afl fan but wasn't there another afl player , thought it was st kilda who had an.investment property in which a child drowned because of inadequate fencing and he almost got into trouble?

Damn, I wish my tenants would repaint the house, install a new kitchen, landscape the garden, build a granny flat for me without my knowledge

Until you discover that the work was done to a poor standard and without approval and the council orders you to demolish it at YOUR expense.

The pool was something like this, but without the sun shade:

http://www.clarkrubber.com.au/shade-and-wade-pool.html

 

[wylie]

That is a tiny pool. A child could still drown in it but I was picturing a more substantial and permanent above ground pool.

I'd love to know if this type of pool would be an issue as we have bee discussing? It is similar to a clam pool (but bigger). Would council ask that a clam pool be fenced? I see this as a large toy and fencing something that is not a permanent structure seems over the top. Wouldn't this be emptied after a couple of days?

I'm not saying this type of pool left filled in a back yard is not a safety risk but what about if the agent saw a clam shell filled with water there. Would she want that fenced?