The Great Reverse Government

[BayView]

If you're making less than $400 per week and you're single, you're living below the poverty line. If you're a couple with two children and your income is less than $841.00, you're living below the poverty line.

True.

These folks can apply for Gubb assistance if eligible.

And for someone single, there are plenty of hours in a week to work for more money.

Many of these families earning less that $841 per week need to get really good at money management.

And/or work more hours in other jobs, and/or get rid of all the unnecessary spending - and I'll bet my house there will be plenty of that.

Not blowing a trumpet; just illustrating reality; we are currently asset rich, and cash poor - very, very broke due to the state of my business. Too bad; my own fault; another mistake made in life.

We have 3 kids; one 13 year old, and two under 6 years old.

So, what do we do?

Well; here's what we have done;

I have retrenched all but one staff member and work 50+ hours myself in the business, cut costs and stock to the bone where possible.

Wife works 4+ shifts per week in the evenings so I can be home to look after kids and keep down childcare costs. She tries to work weekends as well much as possible if available.

We only have one car. We never go to restaurants etc. We spend nothing on ourselves unless a necessity, and buy second hand clothes for the kids and so forth.

We shop at the Market for food, and Aldi for the top-ups.

I'm not crying; just explaining something to you.

We have made our own bed and have chosen to lie in it.

What is the course of action you see here for a family who is broke?

Simple; work-your-@rses-off is the first step.

Is it fun? no.

Too bad; the world doesn't owe you.

 

[property_girl]

We have 3 kids; one 13 year old, and two under 6 years old.

So, what do we do?

Well; here's what we have done;

I have retrenched all but one staff member and work 50+ hours myself in the business, cut costs and stock to the bone where possible.

Wife works 4+ shifts per week in the evenings so I can be home to look after kids and keep down childcare costs. She tries to work weekends as well much as possible if available.

We only have one car. We never go to restaurants etc. We spend nothing on ourselves unless a necessity, and buy second hand clothes for the kids and so forth.

We shop at the Market for food, and Aldi for the top-ups.

I'm not crying; just explaining something to you.

.

Bayview, what if you (or your wife) fell ill and could not work? What if something happened to one of your children and one of you had to be a full-time carer for that child? You would fall below the poverty line, not because of bad money management or laziness. Government assistance is there for those who, through no fault of their own, need a hand up.

 

[BayView]

Bayview, what if you (or your wife) fell ill and could not work? What if something happened to one of your children and one of you had to be a full-time carer for that child? You would fall below the poverty line, not because of bad money management or laziness. Government assistance is there for those who, through no fault of their own, need a hand up.

In our case, we could sell our house, pay out all debt completely and still have my business income (albeit reduced until more staff could be found who could run the place, we would still have our IP income, and/or my wife can still work around our needs.

We both have Worksafe insurance, and we have private health insurance, so we would have a fairly decent safety net - unless both of us were struck down at the same time.

Noone can forsee those circumstances of course, and while there is a percentage of folks out there which this happens to; it is not the vast majority of low income or even middle to high income earners.

We are lucky, but we have created our own luck to a large degree. Bad and good.

But I hear what you are saying.

When the Pollies refer to "the working poor" - and it is them who use it freely - they are referring to the working poor, I would assume.

I don't know how they ever coined this phrase; to me; those two words are contradictory in the same sentence.

If you are working, then you are only poor due to your own decisions and efforts, I believe.

If you were working, but for unforseen reasons you were not able to work, then yes; Gubb support is required. But these are not the working poor anymore...these are the unemployed who have no income.

Maybe this is what they are actually meaning when they say "working poor"?

Here's a quick example of what I reckon the Pollies would call a "working poor" adult;

A single Mum with 2 young kids - she's about 25 or so - came into our workshop with a puncture to be repaired...6 months ago.

She couldn't afford to get it fixed straight away, and said she would be back in a few weeks to pay for it when she had some money. It is a $25 cost for a puncture repair.

We still have her tyre, so she has no spare - and is transporting 2 little kids around.

Sounds terrible - and it is.

But here's the catch; she had at least a dozen tattoos all over her body, and the car stunk like an ashtray, and there were various Maccas wrappers and other take-away stuff scattered around the car. You get the picture.

She has made her decisions - which cost her lots of money - which could be used to fund a better car, and some cash for emergencies.

I have no sympathy for her, but feel sorry for her kids.

 

[sash]

Bayview...sorry to hear of your plight.

A question....your best asset is your home..correct? Based on other posts it is worth a bit?

Why not sell it and take the pressure off? The market is good so you should get top dollar....remember persisting like this is not good for you or your family. I noted (if I may)....that your posts sound down....take the load off.

I know someone who worked at the top end of town and wrote a book called Still Stupid at 60 (can get it though Amazon)....he writes not to have too much money tied up in a house.

Very sage advice...

True.

These folks can apply for Gubb assistance if eligible.

And for someone single, there are plenty of hours in a week to work for more money.

Many of these families earning less that $841 per week need to get really good at money management.

And/or work more hours in other jobs, and/or get rid of all the unnecessary spending - and I'll bet my house there will be plenty of that.

Not blowing a trumpet; just illustrating reality; we are currently asset rich, and cash poor - very, very broke due to the state of my business. Too bad; my own fault; another mistake made in life.

We have 3 kids; one 13 year old, and two under 6 years old.

So, what do we do?

Well; here's what we have done;

I have retrenched all but one staff member and work 50+ hours myself in the business, cut costs and stock to the bone where possible.

Wife works 4+ shifts per week in the evenings so I can be home to look after kids and keep down childcare costs. She tries to work weekends as well much as possible if available.

We only have one car. We never go to restaurants etc. We spend nothing on ourselves unless a necessity, and buy second hand clothes for the kids and so forth.

We shop at the Market for food, and Aldi for the top-ups.

I'm not crying; just explaining something to you.

We have made our own bed and have chosen to lie in it.

What is the course of action you see here for a family who is broke?

Simple; work-your-@rses-off is the first step.

Is it fun? no.

Too bad; the world doesn't owe you.

 

[kathryn d]

Sash,

I'm not answering for BV, just so you know.

In many ways, BV and I are very similar.
Same age,(54) left home at same age (17), buy second hand clothes, thrifty living etc.

We also are asset rich, and cash poor.(very aggressively paying off debt)

For others that don't live like us, it must seem very strange and full of hardships.
Having lived like this all thru my adult life, it feels comfortable and normal.

IMO, living like this was the best thing we have given our children.

 

[BayView]

Bayview...sorry to hear of your plight.

A question....your best asset is your home..correct? Based on other posts it is worth a bit?

Why not sell it and take the pressure off? The market is good so you should get top dollar....remember persisting like this is not good for you or your family. I noted (if I may)....that your posts sound down....take the load off.

I know someone who worked at the top end of town and wrote a book called Still Stupid at 60 (can get it though Amazon)....he writes not to have too much money tied up in a house.

Very sage advice...

Yes, we have agonised over this for the last 2 years...should we sell and have a more modest home with no debt, or hang on and ride the (apparent) boom?

We are torn, because if the current boom continues, our house is at the level where it can increase in value far beyond our ability to earn income over the next say; 10 years. Our house could well be worth double what we spent on it in the next 5 years according to recent values, so we have elected to hang on and look for other ways to improve our circumstances.

The big spanner in the works for us has been the slow decline of the business, but we still can live a decent lifestyle nonetheless...it just means the wife has to work (and so do I) way more hours than we would like to at our stage of life. Too bad though.. suck it up and plow ahead is what we do.

The other thing is that if we did sell now, we may never have the chance to get back into this level of housing ever again, and/or the re-entry cost would be far more down the track.

We would prefer to hang on, hope for some increased value and equity, and then re-use some of it for more income producing investments that will ease the cashflow pain.

 

[AlmostBob]

I think its the difference between a plan, judged on circumstance, depending on yourself
and the bogan-ostrich ignoring the circumstance demanding help from everybody else

 

[sash]

Yes I know...I know 2-3 people like this...from a psychological perspective is has to do with their life experiences formed when young. Unfortunately...unless they have very understanding partners and kids..it is a very miserable existence. I am not saying spend everything...but a balance is good.

Sash,

I'm not answering for BV, just so you know.

In many ways, BV and I are very similar.
Same age,(54) left home at same age (17), buy second hand clothes, thrifty living etc.

We also are asset rich, and cash poor.(very aggressively paying off debt)

For others that don't live like us, it must seem very strange and full of hardships.
Having lived like this all thru my adult life, it feels comfortable and normal.

IMO, living like this was the best thing we have given our children.

Sorry BV...I have call poppycock here.....the current boom will not continue for ever. A house does not define you..I learnt this over time...what is more important is how you, your wife, and ultimately your kids feel. Ask the question...is everyone happy..if yes proceed down the track. The real issue is the feeling of just a stiff upper lip manifest into illnesses in your body...which you won't see.....it then creeps up on you. Good luck anyway.

Yes, we have agonised over this for the last 2 years...should we sell and have a more modest home with no debt, or hang on and ride the (apparent) boom?

We are torn, because if the current boom continues, our house is at the level where it can increase in value far beyond our ability to earn income over the next say; 10 years. Our house could well be worth double what we spent on it in the next 5 years according to recent values, so we have elected to hang on and look for other ways to improve our circumstances.

The big spanner in the works for us has been the slow decline of the business, but we still can live a decent lifestyle nonetheless...it just means the wife has to work (and so do I) way more hours than we would like to at our stage of life. Too bad though.. suck it up and plow ahead is what we do.

The other thing is that if we did sell now, we may never have the chance to get back into this level of housing ever again, and/or the re-entry cost would be far more down the track.

We would prefer to hang on, hope for some increased value and equity, and then re-use some of it for more income producing investments that will ease the cashflow pain.

 

[Bargain Hunter]

Clearly there are some people who cannot work and therefore need ongoing support throughout life.

There are others who fall on hard times and need support while they get back on their feet.

Then there are even more people who will never earn enough money even working overtime to get a decent income.

We do not want any of these people to be forced onto the street and I am glad that our government recognises this and has in place safety nets for the most vulnerable in our society.

What I do object to is people who choose not to to contribute and instead are happy to be a burden on society for extended periods if not their whole adult life.

I know that most people would think that no one wants to live like that, but the reality is that some people are happy to do anything other than be responsible members of the community and no amount of funding is going to change the way they think.

In my opinion, these people need to face the consequences of their poor choices (pun intended) and not be given money for nothing.

Regards

Andrew

 

[WattleIdo]

Or else get rid of the 'business', you be stay at home dad and wife can work ft to maintain house that means so much to her/ you both.

 

[Angel]

We don't have the luxury, and that is exactly what BV's home is, to downgrade should we ever need to. My husband has a 50-50 chance of being made redundant later in the year. At 59 he is not confident of finding any further employment. Our home is worth a grand $400K, what do we downgrade that to?

BV, you really are being a sook if you think every other one of the 23 million Australians can be as qualified and healthy (really?) as you are, in order to be able to stoically carry on and become as successful as you are. Hubby and I are too tired and worn out to keep trying to become "successful". Just wondering if, before you became high income earning, were you handicapped in any way which automatically precluded you from various forms of employment. I mean handicapped like a race horse. Hubby left school in 1972 being colour-blind, malnourished, unable to read or write, left handed and dyslexic. He did the same first year tafe classes in his apprenticeship as electricians, but it was against the law then for a colour-blind person to work as an electrician. He still doesn't get basic maths although he started to read and write when we got married. He stutters.

Now offer him the job when you've got two hundred other applicants who don't stutter.

Working poor means people who have a job but it doesn't pay very much. My job is classed as full time (five days a week) in my industry, but because of the nature of it, I earn a smidge over $32K per annum. There is a limit to the number of hours per week that we are employed, I am already at the maximum rate and number of hours.

It is my choice to work there. This is one example of "working poor". The cleaners at my workplace are another example of "working poor".

 

[BayView]

BV, you really are being a sook if you think every other one of the 23 million Australians can be as qualified and healthy (really?) as you are, in order to be able to stoically carry on and become as successful as you are.

I'm not complaining about my lot in life at all. I've been the working poor and worked my way out of it. Anyone can do it. Is it easy? Nup.

But as I said earlier; I am not referring to the folks who have serious disabilities and physical/mental handicaps in life to stop them from working and/or earning more.

These are the minority of folks, and they get assistance in many cases. Everyone wants to and tries to help them..

Hubby and I are too tired and worn out to keep trying to become "successful". Just wondering if, before you became high income earning, were you handicapped in any way which automatically precluded you from various forms of employment.

I've never been a high income earner. Best effort was a few years while in the golf industry earning circa $80k - but that was nowhere near as small as 9 to 5.

I mean handicapped like a race horse. Hubby left school in 1972 being colour-blind, malnourished, unable to read or write, left handed and dyslexic. He did the same first year tafe classes in his apprenticeship as electricians, but it was against the law then for a colour-blind person to work as an electrician. He still doesn't get basic maths although he started to read and write when we got married. He stutters.

Now offer him the job when you've got two hundred other applicants who don't stutter.

I take it he has gone on to be a success - despite the setbacks? By virtue of the fact that you are here on SS - you have the right stuff to never stay in the working poor level.

Working poor means people who have a job but it doesn't pay very much.

Except for the very fortunate few; that would apply to everyone at the earlier stages of their working life.

My job is classed as full time (five days a week) in my industry, but because of the nature of it, I earn a smidge over $32K per annum. There is a limit to the number of hours per week that we are employed, I am already at the maximum rate and number of hours.

It is my choice to work there. This is one example of "working poor". The cleaners at my workplace are another example of "working poor".

The key word is choice. You and they are not poor as such; you all choose to earn less for various reasons. Time is a factor of course, but at the end of the day, we can always change the circumstances.

You are not locked into this job and pay for your whole life.

 

[BayView]

Sorry BV...I have call poppycock here.....the current boom will not continue for ever. A house does not define you..I learnt this over time...what is more important is how you, your wife, and ultimately your kids feel. Ask the question...is everyone happy..if yes proceed down the track. The real issue is the feeling of just a stiff upper lip manifest into illnesses in your body...which you won't see.....it then creeps up on you. Good luck anyway

I know booms end, but if we are in one, then we are in the ocean and ready to take the wave. To sell now and see someone else pick up an easy extra $500k or $1mill in the next 10 years just from buying our joint at the right time would really kill us.

Plus, if we still have this place and it goes through the roof (or even just average percent growth) the equity it will generate for future investing will be substantial.

I don't want this thread to turn into my issues.

We still do alright, just are in a strange predicament currently. Sure, we don't whiz off to Vietnam every 6 months or Paris etc, or shoot up to the Theme Parks every other year and so on, but the kids are happy, we still do inexpensive activities as much as we can, and cram in lots of time together when possible.

For example, took the two little ones to the Play School concert and then to a hobby farm yesterday, fed the animals and played in their swing park, then home for an afternoon in the pool and the spa. Great day. Total cost was about $100 for the day for all.

We view our house as our reward for our effort, and we all love it and enjoy it. But it is also part of the investment "plan" if you like.

We view the situation as not ideal, but like anyone who has a few neg geared IP's and who are thinking; "Far out; this is not how I envisaged it; where is the cashflow?" yet they still keep on the plan, tipping money into their IP's every month in the hope of reducing debt/cap growth and equity growth to do more investing....that is sorta how we are right now.

If the business was doing what we expected; happy days. (working on that part currently).

Call that an investment that has not seen a good return so far, but can still be one.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

That is a choice.

Hi Marc, you haven't answered my question.

What happens if all the people working in minimum wage jobs all decided to down tools and choose to qualify for and apply for higher paying jobs?

 

[Angel]

"I am not referring to the folks who have serious disabilities and physical/mental handicaps in life to stop them from working and/or earning more.

These are the minority of folks, and they get assistance in many cases. Everyone wants to and tries to help them.."


BV, we don't want "help'. We want to be able to earn more $$$ so we can have more spending money and investing money so that we can live the lifestyle that most of the folks on this forum take for granted. So tell us, where should we relocate to in order to get better paying jobs than the ones we have now? Why not spend our Super travelling around the country and then put out our hands for the Dole and live probably just as well as we do now, minus a truck load of stress.

We tried this investing game and, like your business venture, it hasn't turned out anything like the brochure suggested.

I think you really haven't come to terms with what some of us are saying... The economy isn't what it used to be. You recognise that in your neck of the woods the economy is far from booming. Then you want the same people who are affected negatively by the stalling economy to get themselves into a "better" position. Sorry Mate but you cant have it both ways.

 

[Angel]

I'm having my own whinge tonight

 

[kathryn d]

Everyone seems to want to earn more money.
It may not always be possible.
Then you start to reduce expenses.

Every time minimum wages are increased, all other prices increase.


Honestly, I don't see the problem with buying 1-3 investment properties.
Buy them early in your career. Pay them off.
They are your retirement income.

A couple, work together for the first 5-7 years, to pay off their PPOR or at least make it manageable. I'd say live like a uni student, but I didn't even finish high school.....so live frugally.

Use the equity for a down payment on a rental property.
Pay it off asap

Manage them yourself, if possible.

 

[BayView]

Hi Marc, you haven't answered my question.

What happens if all the people working in minimum wage jobs all decided to down tools and choose to qualify for and apply for higher paying jobs?

Of course; this won't happen, because they don't just down tools until the next higher-paying job comes along.

Most folks I know stay in one job until they find another one, because they can't afford not to have the income...then they leave their current job.

But, if it could happen, I would imagine that the next wave of folks looking for work would be applying.

We currently have very high unemployment by historical standards, and every other week there are mass retrenchments and closures announced on the news, it seems.

A minimum wage job is where most folks start.

Many folks also end up back there if their personal financial world goes pear-shaped for various reasons.

Is this where they will always stay?

 

[BayView]

BV, we don't want "help'. We want to be able to earn more $$$ so we can have more spending money and investing money.

This sounds like almost everyone I've ever known.

Short answer is look for other part-time and/or casual work to supplement your current income.

so that we can live the lifestyle that most of the folks on this forum take for granted.

I certainly do not take my lifestyle for granted. What I have (which isn't that much, really) I have worked very, very hard for, and made my own luck - like everyone on this site is now doing.

So tell us, where should we relocate to in order to get better paying jobs than the ones we have now?

There are literlly thousands of places around Aus to relocate to, and there are several search engines for job hunters, and there is your feet - ask around your neighborhood if folks need part-timers in the various businesses.

My previous life was in golf ProShops. They are always looking for good, reliable staff. The work is easy and mostly fun, but the hours can be bad (weekends and very early starts). Ask every golf club/public golf course if they need anyone. You don't need to know anything about golf - just some PR skill, a brain, and a work ethic will be enough.

Why not spend our Super travelling around the country and then put out our hands for the Dole and live probably just as well as we do now, minus a truck load of stress.

We would end up with a massive welfare Country of folks doing zip.

We tried this investing game and, like your business venture, it hasn't turned out anything like the brochure suggested.

Have you given up?

I think you really haven't come to terms with what some of us are saying... The economy isn't what it used to be.

I have been saying that for at least 18 months now.

You recognise that in your neck of the woods the economy is far from booming.

Sigh....Noooo; I have also said numerous times that I am not basing my view of the economy on my neck of the woods. I am basing my view on what I am told by folks I know from several walks of life, from various parts of our State.

Then you want the same people who are affected negatively by the stalling economy to get themselves into a "better" position.

I want everyone to do well.

All I have done is given folks the ideas to go out and do it.

Sorry Mate but you cant have it both ways.

You are dead right.

But, a bad economy doesn't stop folks from doing something.

You can either be poor/become poor from being OK, and wallow in self pity like the working poor, or you can be pro-active and do something about it.

The first step is to widen your view to job opportunities and types of work you might do.

I was a golf pro - then ran a B&B, then became a nurses' aid, also tried selling real estate, bar work, then we moved overseas for a time, now own a mechanical workshop...have also tried selling sunglasses in Myers, worked in a menswear shop, a roadhouse doing night shifts - for a few examples.

They all add dollars to the pot, to be used for higher things later on - such as IP investing, or buying a business..

 

[chilliblue]

There are always people who cannot be bothered unfortunately.

My parents know of a guy in his 60's living on one of his parents houses for free - electricity, water etc paid by dad.

In his 40's he sustained an injury and was compensated $120K which would have allowed him to buy the house twice over.

He and his partner spent the money in 3 years on pokies, travel and generally having a great time and ended on benefits.

5 years ago his dad died and left him the property. Property has now been sold and again back on welfare for the same reason.

All the great starts to make something.