The power of compounding and 2% difference in investment returns

Did an interesting exercise today. I know this is obvious stuff but I think it's still worth reminding ourselves the power of compounding over a long period and what a small difference of 2% in investment returns can make.

Generally speaking for majority of people their working lives are approx 40yrs. Somewhere between 20-25 years to 60-65 years.

To keep this exercise simple I will assume person A invests $1 million in a low cost index fund at age 25 as person A believes in trying to keep costs down to the minimum.

Person B also invests $1 million but in an actively managed fund which charges a higher costs of nearly 2%. This fund beats the index over several years but also lags the index in many years making it somewhat similar to the index over a long period. I am talking 30-40 years here.

Going by the long term returns it is not unreasonable to expect low cost index fund to generate approx 9% returns and actively manage fund to also generate similar returns but because of higher fees (performance, transactions etc) investors loses around 2% on fees there by only returning them around 7% net over the long term.

No additional funds are invested over those 40 years.

Here are the result

Person A
After 40 years the $1 million earning 9% will be worth approx $36 million

Person B
After 40 years the $1 million earning 7% will be worth approx $16.3 million

Less than half.

Moral of this exercise is don't underestimate even a small percentage gain to your investment returns. One of the easiest way to gain small percentage gain is to reduce your investment costs. Over long period you will see the difference.

Paying tax on your investment returns can be treated as investment costs. Hence, the same argument can be made when discussing Cashflow vs Capital Growth investments. If given the choice always invest for Capital Growth due to it's favourable tax treatment by governments. Over long period you will build wealth much faster since you will have more $$ compounding for you whereas Cashflow investor will be giving away big chunk of their investment returns to the tax man. Berkshire Hathaway has never paid a dividend in 50 years (except once) and the results are there for everyone to see. People should read Buffett's latest letter to shareholders where he justifies his decision of not paying dividend and why shareholders are better off than if he paid a dividend.

I know few people will come up with argument that future Cashflow is certain whereas CG is not. I agree, but I also think that if you are investing as opposed to speculating and therefore buying quality assets which you can with great certainty say will be worth a lot more in future you can invest for capital growth.

To put it simply, if quality assets are desirable to people today they will be desirable to people 10-15 years from now. As the economy grows and peoples salaries increases they will be willing to pay more for quality assets in future years thereby providing you with the capital growth. I think this is a reasonable assumption to make when investing.

Happy investing

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
The other thing to understand is the significant effect of a loss in the period.

Eg, buy for $100k. Capital growth is -50% in first 2 years, then +50% over the next 2 years. Our property isn't back at $100k, it only $75k. It takes a long time to recover from a period of negative growth.

Which IMHO any spreadsheets that calculate on constant growth over a long period end up being misleading and inaccurate.
 
Did an interesting exercise today. I know this is obvious stuff but I think it's still worth reminding ourselves the power of compounding over a long period and what a small difference of 2% in investment returns can make.

Generally speaking for majority of people their working lives are approx 40yrs. Somewhere between 20-25 years to 60-65 years.

To keep this exercise simple I will assume person A invests $1 million in a low cost index fund at age 25 as person A believes in trying to keep costs down to the minimum.

Person B also invests $1 million but in an actively managed fund which charges a higher costs of nearly 2%. This fund beats the index over several years but also lags the index in many years making it somewhat similar to the index over a long period. I am talking 30-40 years here.

Going by the long term returns it is not unreasonable to expect low cost index fund to generate approx 9% returns and actively manage fund to also generate similar returns but because of higher fees (performance, transactions etc) investors loses around 2% on fees there by only returning them around 7% net over the long term.

No additional funds are invested over those 40 years.

Here are the result

Person A
After 40 years the $1 million earning 9% will be worth approx $36 million

Person B
After 40 years the $1 million earning 7% will be worth approx $16.3 million

Less than half.

Moral of this exercise is don't underestimate even a small percentage gain to your investment returns. One of the easiest way to gain small percentage gain is to reduce your investment costs. Over long period you will see the difference.

Paying tax on your investment returns can be treated as investment costs. Hence, the same argument can be made when discussing Cashflow vs Capital Growth investments. If given the choice always invest for Capital Growth due to it's favourable tax treatment by governments. Over long period you will build wealth much faster since you will have more $$ compounding for you whereas Cashflow investor will be giving away big chunk of their investment returns to the tax man. Berkshire Hathaway has never paid a dividend in 50 years (except once) and the results are there for everyone to see. People should read Buffett's latest letter to shareholders where he justifies his decision of not paying dividend and why shareholders are better off than if he paid a dividend.

I know few people will come up with argument that future Cashflow is certain whereas CG is not. I agree, but I also think that if you are investing as opposed to speculating and therefore buying quality assets which you can with great certainty say will be worth a lot more in future you can invest for capital growth.

To put it simply, if quality assets are desirable to people today they will be desirable to people 10-15 years from now. As the economy grows and peoples salaries increases they will be willing to pay more for quality assets in future years thereby providing you with the capital growth. I think this is a reasonable assumption to make when investing.

Happy investing

Cheers,
Oracle.

The PBS documentary titled 'the retirement gamble' discusses above. It's worth watching.
 
The PBS documentary titled 'the retirement gamble' discusses above. It's worth watching.

Thanks , PBS video link

Business Insider review

PBS Frontline Nails It On How Wall Street Screws Main Street

“The Retirement Gamble,” a PBS Frontline documentary, looks critically at inherent conflicts between the financial services industry and investors. The program excellently frames these complex issues in an easy to understand manner. Of particular note, the producers did an outstanding job of breaking down how investment-related fees destroy investment returns.

Readers of our work will recognize that the issues raised in the program are near and dear to our hearts. We’ve previously described these very issues raised in the program as the greatest consumer scam of our time, a scam that is so enormous and wide reaching that is almost difficult to fathom.

We were thoroughly entertained when correspondent Martin Smith, armed with data from the investment legend Jack Bogle, confronted Michael Falcon, the head of retirement for J.P. Morgan Asset Management, about the eye-opening negative impact J.P. Morgan mutual fund fees have on investors’ returns. Mr. Falcon appears totally baffled by Mr. Smith’s question—he literally fumbles around, struggling to articulate a single word.

Investing – A Necessary Life Skill
 
Do not gamble $ investments prior to retirement!

The other thing to understand is the significant effect of a loss in the period.

Eg, buy for $100k. Capital growth is -50% in first 2 years, then +50% over the next 2 years. Our property isn't back at $100k, it only $75k. It takes a long time to recover from a period of negative growth.

Which IMHO any spreadsheets that calculate on constant growth over a long period end up being misleading and inaccurate.
+1 as I totally agree.
Not sure if the figures will be displayed clearly as I try to illustrate 3 Scenarios. Imagine you are retiring with $1m and you invest the money (say stocks). You better pray and hope that negative returns do not occur as you are to retire. Why? Well, if you need to pull out the $ each year while the $ are invested you may run out of the money just because of BAD LUCK, yes bad luck. See for yourself:
SCENARIO 1
Year $ Invested % Growth $ Balance Less Annuity off $100K
1 1,000,000.00 -20% 800,000.00 700,000.00
2 700,000.00 -10% 630,000.00 530,000.00
3 530,000.00 2% 540,600.00 440,600.00
4 440,600.00 4% 458,224.00 358,224.00
5 358,224.00 5% 376,135.20 276,135.20
6 276,135.20 6% 292,703.31 192,703.31
7 192,703.31 3% 198,484.41 98,484.41
8 98,484.41 4% 102,423.79 2,423.79
9 2,423.79 8% 2,617.69 -97,382.31
10 -97,382.31 8% -105,172.89 -205,172.89
Overall % 10%
You run out of money after year 8 due to early negative growth!

SCENARIO 2
Year $ Invested % Growth $ Balance Less Annuity off $100K
1 1,000,000.00 8% 1,080,000.00 980,000.00
2 980,000.00 8% 1,058,400.00 958,400.00
3 958,400.00 4% 996,736.00 896,736.00
4 896,736.00 3% 923,638.08 823,638.08
5 823,638.08 6% 873,056.36 773,056.36
6 773,056.36 5% 811,709.18 711,709.18
7 711,709.18 4% 740,177.55 640,177.55
8 640,177.55 2% 652,981.10 552,981.10
9 552,981.10 -10% 497,682.99 397,682.99
10 397,682.99 -20% 318,146.39 218,146.39
Overall % 10%
Money left over since negative growth was in later years!

SCENARIO 3
Year $ Invested % Growth $ Balance Less Annuity off $100K
1 1,000,000.00 8% 1,080,000.00 980,000.00
2 980,000.00 8% 1,058,400.00 958,400.00
3 958,400.00 4% 996,736.00 896,736.00
4 896,736.00 3% 923,638.08 823,638.08
5 823,638.08 -10% 741,274.27 641,274.27
6 641,274.27 -20% 513,019.42 413,019.42
7 413,019.42 4% 429,540.19 329,540.19
8 329,540.19 2% 336,131.00 236,131.00
9 236,131.00 6% 250,298.86 150,298.86
10 150,298.86 5% 157,813.80 57,813.80
Overall % 10%
Even if negative growth occurred somewhere in the middle $ are still left over. So no-one has a crystal ball into the future BUT if I was to retire I would not like my investment be subject to timing, luck (or gambling IMO).
 
+1 as I totally agree.
Not sure if the figures will be displayed clearly as I try to illustrate 3 Scenarios. Imagine you are retiring with $1m and you invest the money (say stocks). You better pray and hope that negative returns do not occur as you are to retire.


I don't think it's a good idea to go big bang approach and invest all your money in one go, especially when you plan to withdraw nearly 10% each year. The only exception is when the markets have fallen considerably >30% and you plan to hold on for atleast 3-5 years. Stocks are notorious for being extremely volatile and can cause a lot of damage if you are investing for less than 5 years.

Best is to invest periodically for number of years so you get to invest in boom and bust times averaging your entry price nicely.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
Thanks.

Just finished watching it. Yes, it does make a compelling case about investment costs eating away your investment returns big time over long period.

Cheers,
Oracle.
Thank you oracle!
Great video and we can all learn from it here too.
I have known this since working for one of those financial institutions in Australia. Long time ago, one of my projects was to program into managed funds, ALL those fees! Imagine upfront fee of 4% on just investing your money in, so basically a loss of 4% before even investing. Then you have switching fees, or withdrawal/exit fees, management/administration fees, and so on.... (reminds me like in banking, or on loan contracts, all those names for all those fees!).
From that moment on I decided never to invest via these vehicles!
So in 1995, after leaving the company, I was fortunate enough to start my own company, enabling me to set up my own SMSF (thus rolling funds over).
Engulfed with education, invested directly into stocks, property and other vehicles, being able to substantially grow the portfolio.
Recently I did a survey for ASMA (voice for SMSF) and one of the questions was what % of your fund are the fees?
Well, the accountant is 0.1875% and the managing agents for properties are 0.2375%, so a total of 0.425% (note, less than half a percent). On top of that, the SMSF generates 6 figures in gross per year.
Now, this is not to boast, but to prove that some of us exist, that sometime ago, some of us decided to take control over our finances, thus making change to our lives!
Perhaps I was the more fortunate one, but I am so glad I took control. I always thought, if I make mistakes, at least I will only have myself to blame, not others!:rolleyes:
 
I don't think it's a good idea to go big bang approach and invest all your money in one go, especially when you plan to withdraw nearly 10% each year. The only exception is when the markets have fallen considerably >30% and you plan to hold on for atleast 3-5 years. Stocks are notorious for being extremely volatile and can cause a lot of damage if you are investing for less than 5 years.

Best is to invest periodically for number of years so you get to invest in boom and bust times averaging your entry price nicely.

Cheers,
Oracle.

But Oracle, I am providing an example, when entering the pension phase, not the accumulation phase. I do understand dollar cost averaging and you can do it when you are working and earning an income.
BUT, when you are about to retire and now need to start living off your nest egg, where will your investments be allocated? That's my point, they shouldn't be allocated into investment vehicles where a 30% loss can occur early on (or large negative growth in early years). Yet, why are most advisors advocating investing for long term for that demographic?
Some people decide to take annuities or are advised to stay in various stocks or managed funds with their investments for retirement, that over long term they will recover or have growth!
I totally disagree, as I do not have a crystal ball, that's why we see always the print, "past performance does not guarantee future performance", right?. IMHO, if you do not believe me, have a look at Japans index (it went up for about 25 years then down for another 20-25 years). So my point is that it can happen anywhere, not just in Japan.
So if I am retiring, and just by chance, just by luck, I will retire in the period of that graph, where the next two years (as per scenario 1) will be in significant decline, or as per Japan next 25 years (obviously quite generalized view point expressed here but possible, no?), I will run out of my funds (IMO I have gambled my retirement as the video suggests).
It all depends on luck when retiring and deciding what investments you will allocate your funds to. As illustrated by scenarios 1,2,3 above, I would certainly hope the investments do not have a large drop in those early years, as they make ALL the difference!
I have actually helped out a dear friend, unknowingly to me. He took retrenchment and was able to retire so he asked me to check out the managed fund investments, offered by a subsidiary of his bank. Guess the time, just before GFC. Luckily, he set up his SMSF fund and just put the money in the bank (I think earning then around 7-8%). Instead, if he invested with those suggestions, he would have lost, in the first year over 20% (scenario 1) and the possible earnings from the bank account!
I don't think many people understand or realize this concept and what it can do to their retirement nest egg. So it is vital to understand how risky this situation can turn out to be. Do you get my point, yes, no????
By the way, another person I know, did just that, put all the money into an annuity, so some people on retirement will put most of their money into such investments (I heard somewhere 65% of all OZ funds are in stocks - I would presume this represents some Self funded retirees too?).
Also, think about it, most advisors recommend not to invest into property or shares unless you have 7-10 year period, why? Because in case there is a downturn, the theory behind that is that they should recover during that period, right?
So I do not understand why they would not recommend to all people, who 7-10 years prior to retirement, should pull out of stocks? Instead I find there's encouragement to invest into managed funds, reasoning larger risk thus growth (so no cash investment, no direct property - as they don't offer these investments).
Basically, no one is looking after the clients but after the industry itself (as per video!) So what is the solution - taking personal control, IMO! (I do realize this can be dangerous for most non investors so knowledge and learning and investing, like in property, is the key.)
 
I don't think it's a good idea to go big bang approach and invest all your money in one go, especially when you plan to withdraw nearly 10% each year. The only exception is when the markets have fallen considerably >30% and you plan to hold on for atleast 3-5 years. Stocks are notorious for being extremely volatile and can cause a lot of damage if you are investing for less than 5 years.

Best is to invest periodically for number of years so you get to invest in boom and bust times averaging your entry price nicely.

Cheers,
Oracle.

By the way, 10% was an example only, it can be any % you wish to retire on having X amount available for investment. After downturn you can lower the income and perhaps in better growth years increase it or leave it constant, but who wants to lower their standard of living, right?
Also, after 10 years and effects on inflation, having constant income already reduces your standard of living..... (unless we have constant income, deflation in prices and no debt - I am being silly here!:rolleyes:).
All l I was trying to say is that I agree with vaughan comments:
"It takes a long time to recover from a period of negative growth"
 
Not to bad

As posted on another thread

Imagine retiring in America with $1M in the bank today

The highest rate for accounts above $100k is 0.95%, so $9,500.00 return

Well under the poverty line of 48 states at $11,490.00

Retire at 65

@80 years $72K
@85 years $55K
@90 years $44K
@95 (I don't care anymore) years $38.5K

Interest may rise in that time but inflation will be the killer and your under the poverty line so no tax
 
Why are all these retirement calculators based on average returns? Sure average returns are interesting, but actual returns are whats important.

Volitility in returns has a huge effect on total returns, far in excess of 2%.

Now this isnt an argument to pay higher fees, its an argument not to trust average return BS peddled about as gospel.

Average return over 10 years might be 10%
It could be 10% each year to average 10%, nice and simple. Or it could be 5% for 5 years and 20% for 5 years the total return on these scenarios are massively diferent.

Now try for a bit of volitility, lets say 15% for 3 years, 5% for 3 years, and 10% for 2 years and 50% loss for 2 years. the average still looks great, but if the last 2 years were those years when the losses occurred, the total return is pretty ordinary.


My favourite primary school maths problem is getting a 10 year old to work out a 50% loss on a dollar, and then a 50% gain. They all answer a dollar, but its actually 75%. the financial commentary after the GFC is the same, pretty graphs showing asset prices approaching previous highs. Very few individuals portfolio performed the same, cause they fled or were forced out of the market at the low, and either didnt buy back in, or bought back in at a higher price than they sold for.
 
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