The risk came true....

Nice story....for you Dazzling.....would appreciate hearing what happens to the tenant. Seems like he will have to declare bankruptcy if they can only raise 40c on the dollar and he has that debt to the ATO and bank for the FIL payout....suppose the ato and bank get 100c per $1. :)

Seems that's another lesson in choosing your wife carefully.....
 
Nice story....for you Dazzling.....would appreciate hearing what happens to the tenant. Seems like he will have to declare bankruptcy if they can only raise 40c on the dollar and he has that debt to the ATO and bank for the FIL payout....suppose the ato and bank get 100c per $1. :)

Seems that's another lesson in choosing your wife carefully.....

When the creditors accept the 40c in the dollar then there is no need to declare bankruptcy as the debt is finalized with their acceptance.

Really the only way he would become bankrupt is if he had personal guarantee's in place (which is possible with banks) and they go for him personally.

Cheers
 
thought it might take you 3months daz...but a few weeks is grand.
its a surer thing than Marasco winning the Cox Plate that you were going to get a new tenant, at a vast increase. ALWAYS happens....well every time ive seen it it has anyway. whilst the pain and annoyance is large at the beginning, it almost always turns out sensational in the end.

i put it down to mums old saying "plenty more fish in the ocean". i cant really remember but i obviously was upset over a girl once....then bingo, something wayyyy better arrives in a few weeks, months etc and all is forgotten.
i believe in this big time...others also allude to "good things come from crisis" type scenarios. its sooo true.

next best thing to happen will be when new tenant moves out in a few years!!!!
 
Really the only way he would become bankrupt is if he had personal guarantee's in place (which is possible with banks) and they go for him personally.

Cheers


Pretty high probablity of the bank demanding security such as PPR for the FIL loan

As for the ATO..........

actually, you have to wonder whether the bank were aware of the ATO debt when they made the FIL payout loan.
 
Looking back, it has been very useful to use you guys as an experienced sounding board. I'm constantly surprised how there is always somehow who has travelled the path beforehand, and how willing they are prepared to share their knowledge. Onya.

Aww, c'mon, I'm getting all gooeey now...I suppose a group hug is next ?? :)

Anything more than 20 seconds and I'll call the cops.:)

cheers
 
Really the only way he would become bankrupt is if he had personal guarantee's in place (which is possible with banks) and they go for him personally.
If I'm reading the situation correctly, the tenent most likely took a charge over the business & equipment to raise capital to buyout his/her partner in the first place. Financiers almost always request a directors guarantee in these situations. As unfortunate as this situation is for Dazzling (although hopefully a reasonable outcome will be reached shortly), I do feel for the tenant who now has to start from scratch with the high likelyhood of bankrupcy (or at least loss of other personal assets) to boot.

Cheers
 
Put the shoe on the other foot.......
What about the creditors, these are the only people I feel for, which would most likely include suppliers/small business owners, possibly only to get 40c in the $1.00.

My husband's business had a client go into vol. admin 5 years ago owing us $97K (seemed alot of money then), especially as our company had only been operating for 2 years. Fortunately we were lucky, our business survived, but leaves a bitter taste, something you don't forget in a hurry.
 
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daz - let us know what the eventual outcome is. i'd really like to hear that the guy is allowed to trade out of his debt, but just generally interested whatever happens.
 
Daz

Congratulations on some great negotiating and a fantastic buy in the first place!! Does that mean you are finally going to quit your job and become a full-time investor? Come on - if you can't do it with your portfolio now, what chance do I have with my lousy resi props yields? ;)

kaf
 
daz - let us know what the eventual outcome is. i'd really like to hear that the guy is allowed to trade out of his debt, but just generally interested whatever happens.

OK, for those mildly interested.....it's been a while but the situation has progressed a little since last I posted.

The second meeting of creditors which was supposed to decide the fate of the company going under took place on 20 July. There were minimal people attending....myself representing the Landlord owed 10K, a casual secretary who was owed $ 350, a truck hydraulic repairer who was owed 36K and a representative from the ATO owed 212K. That was it....just enough to form a quorum.

With all of the 'big' players not present, I could see they were just going to adjourn the meeting to a later date. The backroom deals were already well in place and none of us at the meeting were involved.....great !!!

By law, they could only adjourn the meeting once, and only for a maximum of 60 days, out to the 20 of September. The ATO reminded them that they had a court action to wind the company up on the 8th of September.

The meeting was therefore adjourned to the 21st of August.

At this stage we were down to only three options ;

1. Submit a DOCA (Deed of Company Arrangement).
2. Put the company into liquidation.
3. Give the control back to the company directors and return to normal.

DOCA was finally submitted by a larger player in the industry, absorbing the vehicles and some of the employees. My tenant was offered a site manager's job in the larger operation at a different site. He's good with trucks and drivers, but hopeless on the financial side of things. They offered just enough to get the figure above the liquidation figure. Return of 20c in the dollar to all creditors.

Liquidation was by far the most attractive option to me, as the Lease would be cancelled and I'd be legally free to negotiate a new Lease, or indeed develop the site.....or whatever the hell I wanted to do with it. Return of 11c in the dollar to all creditors. I personally didn't care about the return in the dollar figure, It was peanuts for us. What I was concerned about was getting the exisitng Lease torn up and control of the site returned to me. All the accountants were concerned about was return in the dollar.

Company was trading at a loss, therefore option 3 would immediately deliver it into the hands of the ATO and the court. Not viable from their perspective.

We have been receiving full rent and outgoing payments for the months of July and August from the chartered accountants, so that's been good.

I didn't care about the pitifully low return on the debt owed, that is the least of my concerns. I just need control of the site back....and it to be clear and clean. There's about 70 semi trailer loads (about 2000 tonnes) of sand / rubble / plastic / asbestos / and other people's rubbish currently on the property.

Just returned from a meeting with the Owner of the new business who is taking over control and he wanted, as part of the DOCA, to close down the operations on our site and remove everything to his site. Woohoo !!!

We agreed on a handover time of October 15 when I would go out there and inspect that it is clear and clean. He agreed to pay the rent and outgoings on the property for the full 6 weeks whilst he mops everything up.

I thought I was in the clear and ready to Lease the site out again to this new organisation I'd been negotiating with. I wrote up the Lease and sent it off to him last month. Terms were as such ;

Nett rent.............$ 145 K p.a.
Outgoings............Paid by tenant (CR / WR / LT / Ins / PM fees)
Bond...................$ 160K (12 months gross rent...in my name, not some Govt bond agency).
Rent escalations...Alternating between 5% p.a. and market (to capture 20 and 30% jumps).
Term Length........10 years

Looks nothing like a residential lease, but there ya go. We aren't hampered by 3% wage rises.

As it turned out, they no longer want to lease the site, so it's back to square one in terms of finding a new tenant. At least the Lease is fully written up and we'll have control of the site once again. We've also got about 6 to 8 weeks to find someone before we start dipping into the excess rent paid pot, so in this hot rental market we are reasonably confident someone will be found under those terms.

So, at the end of the day, this is what the picture looks like for us ;

A vastly improved property (see initial post)
The prospect of a clean site by mid October
Enough excess cash from the rents to pay the mortgage 'til July next year
The opportunity to do what we want with the property (Lease out / develop)
Had an offer of 3.1 MM to buy the place from the neighbour which was rejected

The tenant's business shall be absorbed into the larger operation, and he personally is still up to his eyeballs in debt, unlikely to crawl out from that position anytime in the next 10 or 15 years.

ATO is left collecting 42K, the other 170K owed to taxpayers is lost. This ain't good in my opinion.
The largest creditor (his former partner) collects 193K out of his 965K and loses 772K. He's the biggest loser in all of this.

When analysed in the cold light of day, I think we have come out of the wash in reasonably good shape.

The clear winners in all of this were the chartered accountants appointed to do the administration. Almost every second motion at every meeting was to approve their 100% of their fees prior to any other monies being dispersed to creditors. They certainly don't miss out - they're at the front of the queue.

They charged fees of 50K per month to my tenant's company, which effectively reduced the payout from 45c in the dollar down to 20c. When I confronted them about it, (no-one else thought it unreasonable that junior filing clerks and undergraduates charged out at $ 110 per hour), they had a smirk on their faces and the top dog's response was "We have reasonably high overheads that you would understand, our rental premises cost alot". My reply was "I hope you see the delicious irony of what you just said."

My overall opinion on the whole process is that many people get trampled in this rush for everyone who are supposed to be responsible to avoid as much liability as possible, and the good honest business folks, including employees, get thrown out the window as soon as the solicitors and accountants move in.

Anyway, it's not over yet, another 8 weeks of fully paid rent and outgoings to go...not too bad, but I can see a small glimmer at the end of the tunnel.
 
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Great post Daz,

Very enlightening to read.

Definite ironies here, that in the current rocket boosted WA economy, businesses still go the wall losing serious money. ( if you can't make it work now, when can you make it work??)
Also the irony of the passive property owner collecting the rent vs the business owner trading time for money slogging his guts out and losing everyting.

Work smart vs work hard.
 
Thanks for that daz. Glad you got out of it with minimal burns. Its good to hear (every now and then) the darker side of property investing - to keep everything grounded and in perspective.
 
Hello Daz,

Your post is a really good read and I had a quick question.

How do you screen for a viable commercial tennant?

Thanks
Aaron
 
Screening....oh it's a very robust technique indeed.

I shake the guys hand, look him in the eye and then sit down and grill him for about 2 hours over a cup of tea.

Then I go and have a squizz at his current leased Premises to see what type of pigsty they wallow in presently.

Then I contact the Landlord for the financials, to see if it was stable.

If you are looking for a guarantee of some sort, some sort of TICA database...nope. Life is just as potluck on this side of the fence.


In the very recent past, I've found that the reputable companies have no problem stumping up 3, 6, or in our best case, 12 months rent + GST + outgoings "cash security deposit" into our Bank account, able to be accessed with my signature alone. To us, that is the best form of 'guarantee'.

We are entitled to the interest also on the deposit whilst it sits there. Sure as hell beats the 4 weeks maximum Bond you are restricted by legislation with houses, and even then the tenant must sign off on it....not good for the Landlord's security.

You'd be surprised how well they behave when they have that amount of cash sitting in your pocket. I think New York Landlords are able to charge 3 months bond. It'll get to that stage too in Oz with residential, it'll just take some time, although the bleeding hearts and tenancy advocates group will fight it every step of the way.

This aspect is one of the major planks as to why we don't play that game anymore.
 
And a few of us are coming round too ....
All current deals are commercial in nature even if they do not always involves commercial land.
Only good thing resi is good for as far a I am concerned is to tap the equity to put into business or to acquire more land for developemnt.

The yield is otherwise crap, along with the terms and conditions ( in favour of tenants).
Only resi rentals we will do going forward, are in regional areas where the yield will at least cover all outgoings after refinancing to extract maximum equity, or short stay ( commercial type) accomodation to maximise the yeild.
kp
 
Please keep posting on this thread Daz as l am finding absolutley facinating the inner workings of comercial/industrial ips. The ups and the downs.
By the way how is your book on the topic comming along?:)
Any chance of a seminar?:D

cheers yadreamin
 
Nope....no money in that carry on. My generosity doesn't extend that far.

...and I have no wish to be exposed to that typical Ozzy attitude of stand back with your sceptical arms crossed and throw the proverbial from a safe distance. There's a few who are interested...maybe a hundred or so out of the entire population, so what's the point ?? I'm seriously considering going the way of my Mentor and shutting all conversation down.

You'd be surprised how many people are completely bored stupid with what I do.....they'd rather spend their time and money watching some clown run around with a footy.
 
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