Took 10 years - but it does happen

Cashflow positive residential real estate that is.

We just executed a 2 year leasing deal for our former PPoR. We purchased it for 96K bought back in early '98 and it's been a cashflow drain ever since. Whilst we lived there initially, it caused grief trying to get it up to spec. We thought we got a bargain because it was so skanky and neglected. The people we bought it off paid 108K for it back in '94 when it was in tiptop condition, and then proceeded to trash it. We came along and picked it up in it's full trashed glory.....as you do when you're young - right ?? No 2 bedroom executive apartment with all the flash gear for us.


It had good bones, (land and structural strength) but looked dreadful. It took 2 years of chipping away on most weekends to put it right, something like what you see below.


When we moved out in 2001, we managed to lease it out for $ 180 per week, but with the increase in outgoings during the time (especially the added burden of Land Tax now that it wasn't our PPoR) the place was cashflow negative.

The only consolation was the increase in capital growth due to it being on a triplex block of dirt. We held on and put up with the whining and whinging of several tenants who proceeded to ignore the rent and trash the place again. Joy. Part of the game apparently.

We finally secured a good tenant back in '04 and she's been there ever since. Supposedly a battler - but better "stuff" than what we own.

Rental was $ 180 p.w. for the first 3 years, and we managed to squeeze $ 187 p.w. out of her last year. Did anyone notice we were not able to secure a rental increase in over 6 years ?? Not through lack of trying of course, but they simply wouldn't pay....

When I say good, I mean the best of our residential tenants, that is - she doesn't trash the place and actually looks after it and has made it her 'home', which we fully encourage.

The property has cost us to own all up including everything, on average $ 267 p.w., over the past 4 years. So we've been subsidising her to the tune of $ 87 per week for the past 4 years, a total of 18K.

Anyway, her 2 year Lease is coming to an end, and therefore I sent her note last week saying that if she wished to stay, the rent was going to jump up to $ 300 p.w. as the rent was ridiculously to low. May seem harsh and too bigger jump, but it was market. We had a bit of an argy bargy, and she offered to pay $ 250 p.w. for the first year and $ 280 p.w. for the second year. The intent to stay was clear.

We finally agreed yesterday and signed off on a 2 year Lease at a fixed rate of $ 280 p.w. for the full term. :)

For the very first time in our investing career, we shall own a residential property and it won't cost us anything to hold. At $ 13 p.w. free cashflow - probably only $ 9 p.w. after I pay tax on the profit, it should only take 38 years to square up the cashflow deficit endured so far.

Of course, the real prize "the big picture" that people refer to, is the cap gains made on the dirt, which has gone from 96K up to 600K. This has been leveraged into more productive ventures, so all is well I suppose, but it is nice to have the property off my back finally.

In terms of gross yield, it depends what you relate it back to, but compared to the initial purchase price, it was doing 10.1% and is now signed up to do 15.1%.

Of course, to any other poor sod who bought the place off me for 600K the place was doing 1.6% and has now gone up to 2.4%. At a 100% loan at 8% plus outgoings , it'll cost you about $ 1,000 - $ 280 = $ 720 p.w. Any takers ??

Due to this imbalance, people often ask me why I don't smack the old place down and build three brand new townhouses. We investigated this option, but after paying the 11% capital contributions tax plus all the other fees the council imposes, plus obviously the building cost, plus 2 years of building headache and headworks impositions, I gave up in the end.

Having to listen and tend to the private needs and wishes of one tenant is bad enough, the thought of taking out another big loan only to listen to three of them clicking their fingers and whinge at me makes me cringe. Of course, I could unload all three and be part of the toffy developing set, but the amount of CGT payable doesn't appeal either. I play this game for me, not me and the ATO.


Anyway, I write this spiel as evidence when people say, "Don't worry about cashflow, if you hang on for a bit, the rents naturally increase and soon it'll be cashflow positive." Well, that is true to a point, but damn it's a long time to wait, and the $ 9 p.w. after tax in my pocket ain't exactly buying my freedom. Mr Land Tax just needs to stretch his wings a bit and that'll scoop that up in a flash.
 

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Wow, $267pw is quite a whack considering how long you held the place for, and I would assume - even if you spent a fair bit on reno's - a lower mortgage amount? Glad to see it's turned the corner!
 
thanks for that Dazz, very interesting. I bough a quad site in Mandurah back b4 the boom. I did the devy, even at my all in build/land price of $200k a pop (current value $400k a pop) they are still hugely negative. So I can sit there with a cash drain and a low geared asset (if you can call it that?) or sell up and pay the ATO a massive tax bill. sometimes do nothing is the best option it seems. and yes I have accumulated 4 tenants as part of my family now (well they feel like my own kids anyway). Their a/c/ units are a couple of years old now, they must be due for a good ol break down soon...

so, it's just sit back and wait for rents to make these CF+. waiting, waiting, waiting.....
 
Looks like you and I have taken different paths Ausprop, but at the end of the day we are still at the same crossroads. You've gleaned more equity from working the dirt, but you also have more children now.

The choice is either sit and wait, with all of the baggage that comes with it (-ve CF and bleating) or sell and get kicked back down from the CGT impost.

We obviously have both chosen to sit and wait. My wife isn't happy with this though.

The place now is worth about 10,500 CBA shares. Back in '98 it was worth about 8,000 CBA shares.

She whipped out the calculator yesterday and reckoned the $ 425 p.w. in Divs plus another $ 182 p.w. in imputation credits with no headaches, no costs and no work whatsoever was heaps better than $ 9 p.w. with ongoing babysitting.

Income is starting to play a bigger part in our analysis.

I didn't have a valid argument against it, other than we are "property people". Maybe we shouldn't be ??
 
But wasn't it the equity growth which has permitted you to get into higher yielding industrial and commercial? :rolleyes::confused:

A necessary negatively geared evil? :D
 
I have to say that perhaps you are just unlucky with your tenants. In 30 years, we haven't had whinging tenants at all. We have had very few problems, less than one handful in all that time, but absolutely no asking for things (apart from necessary repairs).

In fact, only one chap (part of a couple) did ring me once to ask me (female) to change a tap washer :eek:

I believe it is the fear that tenants will be harrassing landlords day and night that makes many people use a property manager. We have never had this happen, nor my parents, ever. I would only use a property manager if I lived away from where my IPs were. For us, it is generally "set and forget".

I just wanted to put the other side of the "whinging tenants from hell" story.

Wylie
 
Nigel I take your point whole heartedly.... resi IPs have made me a small fortune. the irony is I despise them and wouldn't recommend them to anyone. why? because if I am brutally honest I got lucky when I took a risk, the Perth boom was pure dumb @ss luck and you could wait 15 years and stil not see that kind of growth again. So do you tolerate a lazy asset or roll it over into a productive asset such as CBA shares that at least make financial sense other than 'I hope they go up in value as they sure as heck offer no yield!'

after a long period of analysing and pondering all this, my conclusion is this: resi IPs are a safe albeit lazy asset class. If your income source is from a job thye are great as you effectively add your tax bill to their yield. So unless you either have a job or you are ultra wealthy and just don't need a yield then I can't see a role for them. I am neither.
 
I have to say that perhaps you are just unlucky with your tenants. In 30 years, we haven't had whinging tenants at all. We have had very few problems, less than one handful in all that time, but absolutely no asking for things (apart from necessary repairs).

In fact, only one chap (part of a couple) did ring me once to ask me (female) to change a tap washer :eek:

I believe it is the fear that tenants will be harrassing landlords day and night that makes many people use a property manager. We have never had this happen, nor my parents, ever. I would only use a property manager if I lived away from where my IPs were. For us, it is generally "set and forget".

I just wanted to put the other side of the "whinging tenants from hell" story.

Wylie

yeh but i bet if you asked them to pay what Dazz and I would consider a fair return then you would hear all about it!
 
I am more than happy with the return I am getting. I am getting market rates.

I have done extremely well with my lazy investment. I am lazy, so it suits me :D

Wylie
 
Paid $156K ten years ago, spent over that time maybe $30K maximum (new kitchen, huge back deck, painting, air-con - maybe not even $30K in hindsight) - market value probably $700K - current rent $420 but will rise to $450 or more at lease renewal, maybe a little higher. It would have been cash flow neutral or positive from go by my reckoning.

I suppose that means it is putting money in our pockets each week, but don't really know how to do the figures. Because we are overall negative, I don't know the answer to the holding cost question.

Potential unit site, could be worth more to a developer as it is part of two together 1800 sq m block total with two street access.

Maybe we will develop it, maybe we will hold it, but for a lazy investment, I am more than happy.

Wylie
 
She whipped out the calculator yesterday and reckoned the $ 425 p.w. in Divs plus another $ 182 p.w. in imputation credits with no headaches, no costs and no work whatsoever was heaps better than $ 9 p.w. with ongoing babysitting.

Income is starting to play a bigger part in our analysis.


I didn't have a valid argument against it, other than we are "property people". Maybe we shouldn't be ??

Hi Dazz,

Room for thought,
We base our decisions on property and discard the sharemarket probably because it's out of our comfort zone... we've made and continue to make our way via property but perhaps we shouldn't be so narrow minded and work in conjunction to get the full potential.

You have ventured into the commercial area much the same way, yet most of us tend to be conservative and remain with residential, again a comfort zone thing... It's something I really admire about you.

I've been battling thinking around commercial, but whether it's
shares, commercial... It's the end goal what its's all about!

Why do we limit ourselves?
 
The place now is worth about 10,500 CBA shares. Back in '98 it was worth about 8,000 CBA shares.

Daz - to think your example through: in 1994, instead of buying your first house, would you have invested your $100k (I assume with 80% finance) in CBA shares, using a Margin Loan? Would you have been comfortable with that and would it have worked without a margin call sometime during that period?

The bit that's got me into property is that I'm happy with relatively high leverage on a property but not on shares. I'm happy, however to now use equity in our properties to buy shares (in the learning phase at the moment).

So I couldn't see my way around using property for creating equity and am now keen to put this into something with a higher yield and more liquidity.

Cheers

kaf
 
But wasn't it the equity growth which has permitted you to get into higher yielding industrial and commercial? :rolleyes::confused:

A necessary negatively geared evil? :D

Yes indeed, and as I wrote, we have used the equity as a springboard to bigger and better things.

But then, I don't want any slackers on my team - they all must stand on their own two feet....that includes yield. Although at 2.4% gross yield, the bar is pretty low....but that's market.

My assets have higher and more stringent numerical hurdles and criteria to overcome to stay on my team other than "keep me happy".

Necessary evil - yes probably....the lending institutions sure were leaping around and clambering to secure the X-coll against ressy titles before lending against the highly risky - ITO non-ressy stuff.

I reckon we've moved on now from this and perhaps it's getting close to jettison point for the ressy props that were a good first stage booster for our wealth rocket. Still - the proof is in the actions, not the words, and so far we haven't sold. Isn't CGT a bugger.
 
Yes indeed, and as I wrote, we have used the equity as a springboard to bigger and better things.

But then, I don't want any slackers on my team - they all must stand on their own two feet....that includes yield. Although at 2.4% gross yield, the bar is pretty low....but that's market.

My assets have higher and more stringent numerical hurdles and criteria to overcome to stay on my team other than "keep me happy".

Necessary evil - yes probably....the lending institutions sure were leaping around and clambering to secure the X-coll against ressy titles before lending against the highly risky - ITO non-ressy stuff.

I reckon we've moved on now from this and perhaps it's getting close to jettison point for the ressy props that were a good first stage booster for our wealth rocket. Still - the proof is in the actions, not the words, and so far we haven't sold. Isn't CGT a bugger.

Dazz

Easy to say with hindsight ..................

You took the right action at the right time and this has been your springboard to better things.

Sure with hindsight, shares/industrial/commercial may have been a higher value option, but I seriously doubt your risk profile would have allowed you to pursue those options.

Whilst I read your post, I don't understand what you are getting at or trying to convey on a predominantly resi-property based forum?

Obviously, (with hindsight) and looking back on one's journey there are/were always better options available ........ the only problem is that one usually isn't aware of what one doesn't know .............

Taking it forward, ...... with the benefit of hindsight and further self education, in 10 years time you will probably be thinking this industrial / commercial stuff is rubbish, I should have got into XYX!

Stepping stones methinks?
 
Looks like you and I have taken different paths Ausprop, but at the end of the day we are still at the same crossroads. You've gleaned more equity from working the dirt, but you also have more children now.

The choice is either sit and wait, with all of the baggage that comes with it (-ve CF and bleating) or sell and get kicked back down from the CGT impost.

We obviously have both chosen to sit and wait. My wife isn't happy with this though.

The place now is worth about 10,500 CBA shares. Back in '98 it was worth about 8,000 CBA shares.

She whipped out the calculator yesterday and reckoned the $ 425 p.w. in Divs plus another $ 182 p.w. in imputation credits with no headaches, no costs and no work whatsoever was heaps better than $ 9 p.w. with ongoing babysitting.

Income is starting to play a bigger part in our analysis.

I didn't have a valid argument against it, other than we are "property people". Maybe we shouldn't be ??

Daz
My plan is to spin off the equity I accumulate in property, using an equity loan, and purchase a combo of shares and managed funds. At home loan interest rates, I reckon over the longterm, the combination of franked dividends and CG should mean my shares would be ahead of my interest repayments on the equity loan. Maybe also sell a small part of the property portfolio prior to retiring to maximise returns.
 
Good morning Joe,

Yes indeed. All of your points are completely true.

Hindsight / experience - yes - it's all I've got to discuss really. But as everyone is at different stages on this marathon we engage in, travelling along at different paces, I thought it appropriate to highlight one small aspect of the residential IP game, and that is it takes a while before you can "live off the rents". Many people have also said the same thing.


I have no plan at all, floundering along with the flow, so the future is very uncertain. We are just buying stuff and seeing where the wind blows us.

Stepping stones / first stage booster rocket / call it what you will, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If you stay squarely on the first stage, it's gonna take a while. Most people I'm assuming would want to get to where they are going as quickly as possible.

Why unnecessarily drive down the road of wealth in a mini doing 25 km/h, when you could be driving a Haulpak truck at 35 km/h. Faster and lower risk....gotta be good.

In 10 years time, yep, I'll probably reckon comm. and industrial props are absolutely rubbish. I am looking forward to what the big boys invest in.....but it's hard to get a toehold up that high to have a peek over the fence to what they are doing. One things for sure, they sure don't come onto internet forums and have a chat about them. Usually it's pay your $ 10K upfront fee to join their platinum club and you get to chat with them on the phone once every 2 months.

...and yes, it's predominantly a residential property forum, but she's not all smelling sweet as roses, fundamentally it's a damn sight better than the average Joe is doing, and it's a fantastic way of gathering a few chestnuts for the winter, but if the objective of it all is to live off the rents from residential tenants, all I'm saying is it may take a while, and the first post on this thread is merely one example of that strategy - 10 years down the track....I suppose just highlighting there are limitations with the sole strategy and perhaps there are other strategies around.
 
Dazzling,

I have no plan at all, floundering along with the flow, so the future is very uncertain. We are just buying stuff and seeing where the wind blows us.

I feel that this is really the crux of the matter.

We are just buying stuff

And this would be the crux of the crux - does that make sense?.......:)

I partially agree with your sentiment - but who is in control here? You and Mrs D, the bank, or your tenants?

ciao

Nor
 
I feel that this is really the crux of the matter.

And this would be the crux of the crux - does that make sense?.......:)

Nope. My only comment would be, if I had a choice between buying the max I could afford now and riding it, with no formal plan attached thereto, or having a rigid income retirement plan and working it religiously, I'd definitely choose the former. As someone else has said, you don't have to get it exactly right, just get it going.

Perhaps I was a little glib when I said we didn't have a plan....

who is in control here? You and Mrs D, the bank, or your tenants?

Without a shadow of a doubt, if you read all of the Contracts that have been put in place, the Bank is most definitely in control. No question about it.

I reckon if you had to rank the control and influential legal rights as dictated by the Contracts and Legislation governing it all, it would go something like this ;

1. Banks
2. Residential Tenants
3. Us
4. Industrial Tenants

But then, I'm getting far wealthier by sitting at number 3 and being associated with them - on their terms, than if I got rid of them altogether and I was in complete control.

If it comes down to a choice between wealth and real control, give me wealth anytime.....well, that's for now of course.

When we hit 40 we could very well sell all of our residential stock to pay out all of the loans and automatically rise to number 1, but for now it suits us where we are.
 
Still - the proof is in the actions, not the words, and so far we haven't sold. Isn't CGT a bugger.

Daz - the tax is a bugger but as you know by selling you lock in your gains. Some of the cost could be considered (by you at least - as part of your investment strategy) as a hedge against "potential" paper losses.
 
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