Yup some parts are - not the whole suburb. Like any of the close to the river suburbs it has some parts clay some parts sand.
WA - construction techniques will have to change.
- Thread starter Aaron Sice
- Start date
Yup some parts are - not the whole suburb. Like any of the close to the river suburbs it has some parts clay some parts sand.
I feel your pain, which is why I qualified my observation with "excellent initial post"
The obsession with double brick goes far beyond irrational.
Antony,
You're taking it out of context with the surrounding landscape.
Josh's house can successfully implement this construction due to the landscaping choices he's made around the house.
Take me to a typical aussie home with the same care and attention paid to the way the garden performs - year round - and I'll probably show you similar success.
Josh's house is a stand-out and an unfair, cherry-picked counter argument.
For example -
- Double brick construction on a concrete pad.
I don't have any problem with solar mass of a conc slab - the rant even says so. Josh's house uses reverse brick veneer or plain studwork for exposed faces to east and west sun and then further shields them with trees.
- Only one double glazed window - the rest have double curtains and pelmets
that's because the room it is in is shielded by non-permanent roof cover (see below) and the room is able to be isolated from the other zones within the house - atypical of a suburban house in Perth. I do this with all my apartments and units and people don't actually realise the benefit to effective heating and cooling by simply zoning a house correctly.
- Cavity insulation is simple foil backed foam with ventilation on both sides - none of these ridiculous foam filled cavities
When I wrote this rant (some years ago now), cavity insulation was only used by Great Southern building companies to get 6 stars for the typical brick-veneer construction used, like Albany and Walpole. It has taken hold in the standard resi sector well and sanj even used it extensively at West Pde for 9 stars with double brick.
- Has major north facing glazing with minimal north facing eaves - because it works.
It works because his alfresco area is a lightweight framed structure with grape vines that leaf in summer and shed in winter. Again, atypical of a suburban home in Perth. Most people want permanent shelter.
- Has a solar system to keep the sun off the roof.
Roof is actually quite small for the size of house - great way to reduce heat loading.
http://joshshouse.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/121202-JoshsHouse-LandscapePlans.pdf
Last edited:
Westy - Have you looked into using a raft slab? basically drilling a few holes and filling with concrete. The slab then sits onto of these "piles" and the friction between the clay and piles is what holds the slab up.
Cut and Fill makes a big mess and you will have cracking forever with the settlement guaranteed.
Comments in red. Not trying to have a go, just pointing out where I agree and where I don't.
Personally, I don't really care at all greenie weenie embodied carbon and greenhouse gas emissions etc which I personally find uninteresting. The bottom line is very simple for me:
http://joshshouse.com.au/about-the-project/
http://joshshouse.com.au/about-the-project/the-property/sustainability-features/
http://joshshouse.com.au/about-the-project/sustainability-assessment/
My Ashfield property is sand also. The house behind me faces the river.
I wasn't using it as a counter argument to your initial excellent post. To me, it demonstrates everything that is not being done in Perth but is the proof that it can be done.
The project proves we can design and build energy efficient homes using standard construction methods and materials for no additional cost but that we don't. Why not? I'm not pretending that this demonstration project has changed anything. It hasn't. Although, it is part of the process to get people to change thier attitudes towards building. With such deeply ingrained attitudes, one project won't change the world.
Almost all new house builds in Perth this year will be double brick and colorbond. The arguments raised in your initial post from 2011 are just as valid in 2015 with the exception that colorbond has overtaken tiles as the roof of choice. This could be a good thing if the selected colours were lighter coloured not darker coloured.
I 100% agree with your comments regarding north facing windows. If you are not prepared to grow a decidous plant or install vergolas to protect them, don't put them in. The house where I live has no north facing windows and the western window that cops the most afternoon sun has a big decidous tree which keeps the room cooler in summer. For a standard house, it's performance is pretty good considering, but it does take some work to operate it and the deciduous plants (trees and grapevines) around the house have really improved its performance.
....with double brick? Promoting movement?
Yes, Josh's House uses RBV in east and west walls but speaking to Griff (who designed it), he is very dubious as to their actual benefit in the real world vs a ventilated cavity brick with double foil backed insulation. They will come up great on a computer model (they were aiming for the stars...) but IMHO provide no real net benefit. On heat conduction benefits they look great but when you are looking at radiation and ventilation as well, the benefits are not so clear.
Aaron - I wasn't having a go at your OP - I realise a few things have changed since then. My main point is that in the real world, there are a lot of benefits to double brick. I'm all for better building methods but to me, if I'm going to go to RBV there has to be a price benefit as it is an inferior finish in terms of longevity and strength. But right now there just isn't that benefit, unless we are talking about pre-assembled second stories where there is a reasonable price reduction, offset by the design limitations involved with the technology (I haven't seen a 101 residential design I like the look of yet - they can't seem to do a proper two storey look). But yes, the price reduction is there at least. Having been upstairs in a 101 house on a hot day, I can attest to the fact that all that conductive insulation in the second storey on a hot day does a great job of keeping the heat in! And I don't believe the thermal mass benefits of a second storey slab and brick interior walls should be overlooked either... you get what you pay for! Of course there is no point putting in that thermal mass if you allow it to get too hot through inadequate insulation or poorly placed windows. There is all too much of that going on...
But then, I fully realise I'm old school on this stuff. Don't get me started on render... it must be my mediterranean heritage!
Aaron - I wasn't having a go at your OP - I realise a few things have changed since then. My main point is that in the real world, there are a lot of benefits to double brick. I'm all for better building methods but to me, if I'm going to go to RBV there has to be a price benefit as it is an inferior finish in terms of longevity and strength. But right now there just isn't that benefit, unless we are talking about pre-assembled second stories where there is a reasonable price reduction, offset by the design limitations involved with the technology (I haven't seen a 101 residential design I like the look of yet - they can't seem to do a proper two storey look). But yes, the price reduction is there at least. Having been upstairs in a 101 house on a hot day, I can attest to the fact that all that conductive insulation in the second storey on a hot day does a great job of keeping the heat in! And I don't believe the thermal mass benefits of a second storey slab and brick interior walls should be overlooked either... you get what you pay for! Of course there is no point putting in that thermal mass if you allow it to get too hot through inadequate insulation or poorly placed windows. There is all too much of that going on...
But then, I fully realise I'm old school on this stuff. Don't get me started on render... it must be my mediterranean heritage!
Interesting. I wonder in a normal construction the cost differential between reverse brick vaneer and a ventilated cavity brick with double foil backed insulation? I might have to run that one by my builder.
It's a pity they didn't build one of the houses on the site as full double brick and the other as part brick and part RBV. Then we would have an answer to the benefits of RVB... or lack thereof.
Still, as you pointed out above, materials become irrelevant if the design is wrong. Build a house with minimal eves, huge north facing windows and no shade and it becomes irrelevant what the materials are. It's going to be a hot box in summer. No getting around it. So we can argue materials till the cows come home and it won't make a scrap of difference in a badly designed house. Speaking of which, the site for Josh's was particularly selected for the east/west orientation. What if my house site is north/south? Can I still get a decent performing house on a block like that?
With a poorly designed and badly insulated upper floor, do the materials make any difference? I've been in plenty of hot box double brick upper floors and a couple of non-brick hot box uppers. The only advatage I can see with the pod type upper floors is cheaper cooling costs if they are well insulated.
Ah, render! There are some houses in my area that are only a few years old that already look very poor because of the badly aging render. Is that the concrete render type? I have been told (but can't confirm) that the new top quality (aka expensive) acrylic renders last a lot longer. I know they certainly look very sharp when brand new but I have questions about how well they will age. This is a bit of a conundrum for me because I was looking at building my house at least in part in RVB but the render finish is a turn off for me. An alternative is weather boards but they are not very contemporary.But then, I fully realise I'm old school on this stuff. Don't get me started on render... it must be my mediterranean heritage!
I think a raft slab is not suitable due to the size of the PPOR but I'll check. The waffle pod is also called a waffle raft as it's quite similar.
Interesting. I wonder in a normal construction the cost differential between reverse brick vaneer and a ventilated cavity brick with double foil backed insulation? I might have to run that one by my builder.
.....
What if my house site is north/south? Can I still get a decent performing house on a block like that?
This is a bit of a conundrum for me because I was looking at building my house at least in part in RVB but the render finish is a turn off for me. An alternative is weather boards but they are not very contemporary.
When I ask builders about RBV vs foil/foam insulated cavity brick the answer I get is "at least the same price or more expensive".
The ideal solar passive house has minimal east and west facing walls and maximum north facing frontage. If you don't have that you are way on the back foot already. If you have longer east/west frontage than north/south it's pretty hard to get it to perform and be liveable. In that circumstance, if I was still wedded to the block, I would throw out most of the rule book and just spend the money on simple insulation and solar panels to power my big R/C air conditioner (turn the house into a fridge / hot box as required). Sometimes, the simple way is better. I mainly prefer solar passive because I dislike forced ventilation / air con compared to natural temperature control but sometimes we can't have everything!
I don't like render but acrylic render is fine really - it's just having to paint it that grates on me - even if you paint it every twenty years, for 10 of those it won't look so good. But then a full brick house is hard to make look really good unless you spend a lot on decorative bricks. For me, the sweet spot is in face brick with rendered "highlights" to mix it up a bit.
Blah. But thanks, that's useful to know. I don't have a block yet but that rules out a number I have been looking at because of the following:
Me too. That's one of the reasons I am looking for a solar design. If I could get away with minimal mechanical heating and minimal mechanical cooling I would be stoked! Looks like I will just have to find a nice east/west block
I'm totally lucky that our new PPOR block is large enough to orient the house any direction. On our East side we have no windows and just garages to 'buffer' the house. On the West side no windows and a 2.5m deep verandah.
All windows are on the North but still with deep verandah and South.
It's going to have 100mm anticon in the ceiling, insulated walls and 40 solar panels
All windows are on the North but still with deep verandah and South.
It's going to have 100mm anticon in the ceiling, insulated walls and 40 solar panels
and 40 solar panels
are you planning on powering a small town? Seriously though, that's awesome! It looks like I am going to have to do some work to get up to speed on passive solar designs and also solar panels... I want both! Oh, and instant gas boosted solar hot water
Seriously though, that's awesome! It looks like I am going to have to do some work to get up to speed on passive solar designs and also solar panels... I want both! Oh, and instant gas boosted solar hot water
10kw 3 phase system
No gas on the block and we don't want to go LPG bottles so looking at Solar HWS with electric instantaneous inline HWS for boosting water as it's used if it's not hot enough. http://www.stiebel.com.au/water-heating/dhe-instantaneous-3-phase-water-heater
BTW back in 2002 when we were building our current house we bought Warm House, Cool House book and I still use it. Australian Authors including Griff Morriss who is great and we went and saw for some advice.
http://www.publish.csiro.au/pid/6869.htm
Cheers, that looks great. I'm really keen to minimise mechanical heating/cooling in my new house just because I don't like the feeling of being in a fridge (in summer) and oven (in winter). I figured out the house where I am so we minimise mechanical heating and cooling, so with a better design I'm sure I could reduce this even further.
Here is a basic guide for orientation, gardens, etc for WA. http://www.esdaus.com.au/pdf/Energy Efficient Housing.pdf
Looks very similar to "thermalite" brick that certain builders in WA used for a very short time. Just a different and probably better implementation.
Many had cracking issues due to not built correctly. Plaster had a habit of falling off.
I've just finished fixing up one house. Every lintel had 10-15 cracks and were 6-8mm sagged in center. Took one day to peal 90% of the plaster off. I would say 70% of the bricks had a 1-2mm crack in the middle in line with the joint above of next row. (note bricks are about 300mmx500mm)
I've fixed the place up properly with new trusses etc taking the load off windows and drywalled internally so hopefully fixes will last the remainder of life of house.
With a good builder/design it would be a good product. House was always cool/warm due to it being a decent insulator.
was never meant to be wet plastered - thermalite was ALWAYS meant to be dry-lined - but good ol' WA...
