Waterfront Investment For Sale

Hi Guys, The zoning will be Res A. The site wouldn't be large unough for units anyway nor would the frontage.

Mr Ed - Most people I have spoken to have indicated their desire to raise the property. The area is condusive to the Colonial style properties, so I would keep the house and lift it, but that's just me.

Sea Change - No, it hasn't sold as of this moment. When I posted last I had a serious buyer on the property, but it hasn't happened yet.

It is a sensational property and has attracted attention worldwide. Return is the hard part for investors but it will attract the ultimate in capital growth.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au
 
absolute waterfront property
very rare
will sell very quickly
truly sensational
too good not to let you know about
enormous growth in recent years
this is an extremely rare opportunity
one of Brisbane's fastest growing regions
my prediction is it will be worth $1 mil within 5 years max
My phone hasn't stopped ringing
pretty close to sold
The interest from the forum has been terrific

When I posted last I had a serious buyer on the property, but it hasn't happened yet.

Bottom line is it's genuine waterfront property of Moreton Bay. That alone will see someone pay some extraordinary amount for it.


Hi Kevin,

Just wondering why you have chosen to give us generalisations instead of fact? The reason we need some substantiation is because the next property you advertise here will have a different set of characteristics but if similar terms are also used to describe it there could be a lot of confusion because no two properties are the same, so the saying goes.

Could you clarify what you consider is enormous growth as opposed to average or good growth?

How fast is one of the fastest? In the top ten? Top twenty?

What is the estimated growth rate for the next 5 years? What is that based on? Independent research?

When is a property rare and when is it not rare? How do you tell the difference? If an absolute waterfront is listed once a year, is that rare? Or is rare when it is listed once a month?

When you say the phone hasn't stopped ringing how many calls about that property in an hour or day are you referring to?

What actually is a serious buyer? Is it someone who has inspected the property? Someone with a written offer? Someone with a verbal offer close to the vendor's asking price? Someone who can make a cash offer?

When is a property close to sold? Is it when contracts have exchanged?

If the amount paid for it is extraordinary is it likely to be overpriced?

Regards, Mike
 
Well thank you Mike, I'll remember your post next time I consider placing an opportunity like this. I cannot post all the info I have with regard to the sale, I have a duty to the owner to act in their best interest, and that I will. I provided an opportunity for everyone to have a look at a potential investment. Considering since beginning on the forum around 3-4 months ago I have listed around 60-80 properties for sale and only posted the one property I don't think it could be said I am using the forum for the benifit of selling property. This is the only occassion (I think) that I have referred to a property for sale.

Let's have a look however at your points and I will attempt to answer them all. Sorry for the length of the post but I can only assume by Mike's post that he feels I am either incompetent, incapable or deceptful.


very rare - it is very rare, do you suggest waterfront property is common.
will sell very quickly - I expected it to do so, and if one of the first 2 offers was accepted it would have been completed in 2 days.
truly sensational - it is
too good not to let you know about - I think it is a great opportunity for an investor who is heavily cashed up and return is not so important but cg is.
enormous growth in recent years. -
18 Flinders - Sold 26/6/87 88,000 - sold 15/10/02 $545,000
land val was 345k, just increased to $475k ( up 130k in 12 months - not bad)
162 Flinders - sold 28/1/82 90k - Sold 29/2/00 475k ucv was 550k now 710k up $160k in 12 months.
208 Flinders sold 23/8/01 250k sold 24/12/01 312k 62k in 4 months
248 Flinders sold 12/10/82 68k - 31/5/93 320k ucv 450k now $580k. 1813m2. From the photo i saw my guess is now worth 800 - 1mil
And there's more but due to length of post I won't continue. Those figures look good to me and in my opinion represent enormous growth considering Brisbane's market.

this is an extremely rare opportunity - I answered that once.

one of Brisbane's fastest growing regions - it is, as the previous figures suggest.

my prediction is it will be worth $1 mil within 5 years max - I stand by that and it is my prediction

My phone hasn't stopped ringing - haven't counted them I am sorry, didn't expect to need to answer to Mike for them

pretty close to sold - I believed it to be the case at the time of the post.

The interest from the forum has been terrific - I have the emails if you need proof

When I posted last I had a serious buyer on the property, but it hasn't happened yet. - It hadn't and hasn't, yet. She said she was away for the weekend and will contact me on Monday.

Just wondering why you have chosen to give us generalisations instead of fact? The reason we need some substantiation is because the next property you advertise here will have a different set of characteristics but if similar terms are also used to describe it there could be a lot of confusion because no two properties are the same, so the saying goes. - I did provide fact plus a description of the property as I see it. Considering the time wasted here I will probably not post another one. It was said at the time that the info provided was acceptable enough FACT to allow it to continue, did it not??

Could you clarify what you consider is enormous growth as opposed to average or good growth? - See above

How fast is one of the fastest? In the top ten? Top twenty? Sorry can't remember the exact articles, however the Courier Mail has on several occasions recently placed it in the top suburbs for growth. I would suggest it is in the top ten, but am prepared to stand corrected. Local papers also have suggested similar.

What is the estimated growth rate for the next 5 years? What is that based on? Independent research? - My job is to sell property for a price that a buyer and seller agree upon today. If an investor wants all these stats about the future I allow them to do their research and due diligence and find out. Who believes a RE agent anyway, right Mike? I stated that my estimation was my prediction, you insinuate that I have guaranteed it. If my suggestion of the future value is too "general" I stand by it based on my experience and the sales I have now posted.

When is a property rare and when is it not rare? How do you tell the difference? If an absolute waterfront is listed once a year, is that rare? Or is rare when it is listed once a month? - You are kidding aren't you? I guess when there is no others available and when they do they normally sell before most buyers get the opportunity to know about it. You seriously don't consider waterfront property as rare??

When you say the phone hasn't stopped ringing how many calls about that property in an hour or day are you referring to? - Sorry, too busy to record them all!!

What actually is a serious buyer? Is it someone who has inspected the property? Someone with a written offer? Someone with a verbal offer close to the vendor's asking price? Someone who can make a cash offer? - All the above except the first one, plus someone who describes a property to me which matches to the property in question, can afford to pay for it and is eaget to purchase immediately. Suggesting that I consider a buyer who just happens to inspect a property is classified serious portrays me to be unprofessional, untrained, inexperienced and/ or downright stupid and I resent it.

When is a property close to sold? Is it when contracts have exchanged? - In Brisbane solicitors do not draw up the contracts and they are not "exchanged" as they are in Southern States. Close to sold, when someone suggests to me they want to make an offer and I know the owner will accept it or is very close to what they want I would suggest it is getting close to being sold. Anything after that would also qualify.

If the amount paid for it is extraordinary is it likely to be overpriced? - What's overpriced. A property is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. An investor may consider a property to be overpriced based on return etc, but a family who want to make it home may feel it represents great value. So when is it overpriced??

Bottom line is it's genuine waterfront property of Moreton Bay. That alone will see someone pay some extraordinary amount for it.[/COLOR] - Do none of us look at waterfront property in the capital cities of Australia and say to ourselves, aren't they expensive, wish I could afford one of those. Isn't waterfront property often owned by the "Rich and famous". My research showed a property in Flinders Pde previously owned by Wickety Wak and I know a former Australian footballer who lives there. It's not exactly Gold Coast or Manly but it is about as good as it gets in Brisbane.


I hope I have given a satisfactory answer. I apologise to anyone who feels they have been or are being mislead. A local person was always going to be the likely buyer however I truly thought this would be of genuine interest to forumites. Given the reaction I suggest it is. I will post all info with regard to the final sale when able. I accept that by posting I am subject to scrutiny but I expected something more sensible. I don't control the property or the market. If the first offers were accepted maybe (if they had proceeded to settlement) I would have been vindicated. By giving this reply I have further opened myself to criticism, left myself in a position with the owner who may not be so rapt about the info provided and maybe provided personal info on other properties which I shouldn't.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au
 

Sim

Administrator
Kevin, I think you have done a very good job with this thread - questions have been answered, even if not in as much detail as some would prefer, I think most of us respect your duties to your client... and the amount of information has certainly been far greater than most we see in this forum.

I also think some of the questions have been excellent too - I have learnt a lot from this thread both in the questions and the responses given. Well done.
 
B

brains

Guest
Kevin,

Are there ANY negatives with this property? The hyperbole & superlatives were overwhelming for what looks to me is a pretty average property.

The house is nothing grand, the block is not huge, the block size & zoning dont have any real potential, the views arent what you would consider outstanding, there is a road to cross to get to the water front?? As seechange says i wouldnt consider it absolute waterfront, this term shouldnt be open to interpretation, it either is abolute waterfront or it isnt.

And i love the way your (and all other agents) 24 hour salesman sign advertise your office more than the property, always makes me chuckle. Must be the only industry that can get away with it.

Im not considering buying this property, just thought id provide some balance and and a bit of reality.

Beside all that, love your work.....:D
 
Dear Kev,

All threads will have pros and cons, as with all potential opportunities. However this has certainly benefited the forum and I agree with Sim that you have genuinely been trying to answer questions put to yourself about this opportunity.

Thanks for sharing this one.

Cheers,

Sunstone.
 
Hi Kevin,

AS sim mentioned, I to have enjoyed this thread immensley and would be very disappointed if you did not post here again. The only way us Newbies can learn is by reading threads like this and watching more experience investors ask questions that I would never even consider.

In my opinion, anything beachfront near a capital city is rare.
You have put alot of time and effort into this thread, answering all questions and even supplying images for all of us to enjoy!

Looking forward to reading your next opportunity :D

Mrs Bird


:)
 
I understand what you mean Kev...

I have listed several properties in the last month which I thought might have been interesting to investors, including development sites, and easy reno's...

BUT

I have resisted posting them because I am sick of the continual negativity toward agents, and I fully anticipated those four or five ppl who predominate this to jump on them. So, unfortunately, I didn't post.

In addition to this reason, I worried about preserving the integrity of the forum and not starting advertising property on here that is being sold by agents... (us included.. ;) ) Don't misunderstand me Kev, yours was totally appropriate, in my opinion, it was well done, and lots of information was freely available.

I don't know what the answer is here, I imagine there will be some ppl who would like to see properties posted, if only to have discussion on them...

I have to say, properties are selling quite quickly at the moment, and I'm sure Kev didn't need the advertising for this one, so again, thanks for posting it Kev.

asy :D
 
Thank you for those who have posted in reply to support me and for the private emails also.

Brains - I appreciate your thoughts, both on this subject and others. We differ in opinions sometimes but what I like is you never insinuate, you call a spade a spade, everyone knows where they stand.

I have answered why I called it absolute, again I stand by that opinion.

As for any negatives, is that what you want your agent to do for you when you sell one day. If I did that you would be the first to scream blue murder for me to take the commission from the owner and then speak derogitively of the property. Secondly, again, any negatives are an opinion by each person. You are right, it isn't zoned for development, it isn't a huge block, but that is not what everyone is after, so who are we to say that it is a negative. As for the house, you said it is nothing grand. It is a nice cottage, if it was something "grand" you would be paying a hell of a lot more because it was grand. You can't have it both ways.

My sign is what it is, a sign to attract buyers attention to the property, sorry if it offends. I except that you weren't pointing that only at me however, but real estate in general. All I can say is it is something you get for free, so don't complain.( although under one system you pay a marketing levy on sale which includes a cost attributed for the sign)

At the end of the day Brains I just knew you were going to pounce on this opportunity. I would like to suggest this to you though. Your profile says you are a plumber or sparky (can't exactly remember now, I actually think you are Neil J in disguise:D ) but their must be rotten eggs that you know in your industry and good people too. Real Estate is no different, not everyone is what you want to believe them to be. I know some very good people in real estate and they don't deserve to be placed in the same category as those that are not.

Thanks again everyone for your input and I look forward to bringing this to a conclusion very soon I hope.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au
 
Hi Asy,

I would like to point out at this time there has been 49 replies and 1908 views to this post. I would suggest this shows there is a place for it.

I have no problem with being questioned or scrutinised over any posting I make on this forum. If I am out of line I deserve to be told so. I just expect someone, as Brains does, to be direct with it and to put their opinions on line as I do.

Asy I think if it is something "special" and is of genuine interest to the investors of the forum, it should stand in my opinion. In saying that I am unsure about doing so next time myself. But that may not be a bad thing. I'll know it will have to be a genuine, A class opportunity or I'm going to face scrutiny again.

I receive a lot by being part of this forum, posting a "rare" opportunity is my way of giving back.

Go the Aussies in tonight's World Cup final. Another late night coming for me.

Have a good one.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au
 
B

brains

Guest
Asy & Kevin,

Point taken and yes ive been burnt big time by RE agents when i was a bit greener than i am now. I find it hard to conceal my feelings for the industry in general ( but not at any specific agent).

Maybe i should get over it, but it would be easier if the RE industry stops its ways that i consider would be unacceptable in any other industry but taken as totally normal in this one.

Ive have no connection with NJ, i only admire what he does and the fact that he is the only one doing it on a major level.

What you propose is a dilemna thats hard to reconcile, as a vendor i would want an agent to get maximum price for me but if he lied to do it, im not sure how id feel about it but probably wouldnt like it, but i sure wouldnt tell him to return the cheque.:)

Because in general i dont lie, ive been running and growing my own successful business for close to 10 years now without lying or deception.

My feeling is if i cant get something without lying, i dont want it.

I think if you are thinking long term this is the way to go and these days my business recieves its work from referrals and word of mouth which vindicates my original decison.

Not saying you guys lie, but i dont think ive met or done business with an agent that doesnt.

I see that house has been on the market for about a month now, do you think it might be overpriced?
 
G'day Kev,

I too would like to thank you for posting this - as anyone reading can see from your post count, you are certainly no "fly-by-night" poster who places an ad on their first day in the forum. To me, this gives you a lot more credence than others that post in CE. And you certainly jumped thru a lot of hoops for us (e.g. getting to grips with HOW to post a picture, responding to everyone's questions, etc.)

You certainly did your best to offer this with the best of intentions, so, like so many before me, let me say I appreciated your effort and time given to this.

Like Brains, this one was never going to be "for me" - but we can all learn so much just from reading about such offers.

Thanks again,

Regards,
 
B

brains

Guest
Just as an aside, Residex predicts a growth rate for Sandgate for the next 5 years of 6% pa average, pretty low for anywhere in Brisbane. Residex is rarely wrong but maybe the waterfronts will achieve better growth than the suburb in general.

So i hope a couple of questioning and sceptical posts dont stop you guys from posting what might be some good investing opportunities for forumites. (Not for me, im done with QLD, land tax issues, RE issues, god-so many issues.:D

And you guys sound like veteran RE industry people so shouldnt be too bothered by a bit of sceptical questioning from prospective buyers.

A late one for me as well, i want the Aussies to win of course but i love watching the little master Tendulkar bat.
 
Thanks Brains,

I lost a listing last week to an agency because the owner was prepared to deal, knowingly, with an agency who is in my opinion the worst I have seen. They are despicable. But the owner knows they lie so badly to a buyer they will achieve at times, higher prices. They will over inflate their rental appraisal, suggest unreal attributes and at times buyers will believe it. Their reputation is abysmal and they can't keep staff, but still people go to them.

I fully understand how you feel. My business is built on all the same standards as yours. My repeat and referral business is very high, just like yours. All I ask of you is not to judge myself and my colleagues by the standards set by others.

As for the price, it is hard to comment on that at this time. The property has been on for 3 weeks yesterday. What I will say is that original expectations by the owner was for over $600k. It has been listed now for 1 1/2 weeks for $595,000 and the owners are now suggesting the property be marketed at a price reflecting closer to the mid 500's (550k+). I would like to suggest 3-4 weeks is not an unreasonable time frame for a property to be sold in.

Kev

www.nundahrealestate.com.au
 
B

brains

Guest
haha...I went to bed after the Aussie innings cause i knew the Indians just werent going to get there.
 
Hi Folks,

I'm not into REA bashing and certainly am not trying to put Kevin off from posting more deals. I have a view and that is I don't think Kevin presented the deal in an unbiased way. Thanks to some good questioning from some people we got a more balanced view of the deal. Ironically, if the deal had been presented in the first place with most of the issues covered then there shouldn't be any need for debate at all. Lots of questions to the poster is usually a sign that the deal wasn't posted with enough details in the first place.

Now I will present two examples of what I believe is a better way to present a deal to this forum.

The first example is a deal posted to the Singing Pig forum by Lisa Orme who is an investor herself and knows what info about a property would appeal to an investor. I was so impressed I replied with "Lisa, you can post as many deals as you like if they are written as well this one."

Hi all,

I debated long and hard about whether to put this on here as I am concious of this forum turning into WalMart!!!

However, I think it is a good deal to analyse for the newbies perhaps as I have included lots of information and I have posted on some other sites and wouldn't want the piggies to miss out. Furthermore, I do not object to anyone analysing the deal!

If anyone objects them I'm happy to remove it.

I have been checking out the following rental opportunity for purchase; for business reasons I have decided not to buy (nothing to do with the deal). I think its an excellent opportunity for a newbie or more experienced investor alike so thought I would pass on.

Complete freehold for sale of a property in a suburb of Coventry. Approx. 3 miles from City Centre and half a mile from the M6 motorway. Typically working class area not a dive but not the poshest either.

Building converted to flats and studios:

1 x 2 bed flat currently let at 75 pw
2 x 1 bed flats currently let at 65 pw
2 x studios currently let at 60 pw

The flats all include kitchens and bathrooms and living rooms. The studios include private kitchenette and bathrooms. All have private entrances. There is a private parking area for 6 vehicles and a laundry area. This was originally some kind of office/builders merchants as I understand but was converted by present owner in early 90's. It is a large corner site and could offer future potential for knock down and redevelopment if that's your game.

The rents havent been increased since 1994!!

Most of the tenants have been in place for 4 to 6 years. One of the studios is currently unlet.

Conservative estimate of possible rents are:

studios 300 pcm
1 beds 350 pcm
2 beds 400 pcm

The agent said it does require a bit of a refurb as tenants havent moved out in so long but it is well looked after.

I have chatted at length with the owner/seller.

He is in his 70s and looking to sell the properties he has he has already disposed of most.

He said the tenancy agreements have long since gone but he can arrange for new ASTs (Assured Shorthold Tenancy) prior to sale or even offer it empty by giving all the tenants notice if the buyer prefers.

He said he is happy to continue looking after the grounds and general maintenance issues if the buyer would like for the next twelve months or so until the buyer has someone else in place.

The asking price is 205k. He will take 200k but no lower didnt try too hard at this stage though.

15% deposit is 30k.
5% IO on 170k = 708 pcm
Current rents = 1409 pcm (just under 17k pa)
Current Yield = 8.5%
ROI = 28%
Potential rents = 1700 + pcm
Potential Yield = 10.2% +
ROI = 40% +

This is up with an agent but they are very flexible about you speaking direct to seller as I did. Seller isnt interested in any creative financing, deposits paid, etc etc (he said hes too old!!)

Kind regards, Lisa


The key issues that Lisa addressed were:

condition of the property; location; type of block; demographic; previous conversion work; development potential; current tenancy status; some vendor details; asking price; investment analysis.

Now my second example is presenting Kevin's deal as it could have been presented in the first place. It is a combination of some info Kevin provided and some additional info supplied by some of our members.

About the property:

absolute waterfront property today in Sandgate

has clear, unobstructed views of Moreton Bay and Redcliffe

The house is a 3 bedroom colonial cottage Queenslander with new kitchen.

Land size is 511m2.

The property is semi-highset, around 1 metre (3 foot) off the ground.

The zoning will be Res A. The site wouldn't be large unough for units anyway nor would the frontage.

The area is condusive to the Colonial style properties, so I would keep the house and lift it, but that's just me.

Return will be low.

I am expecting it to rent for 300-350 pw.

The sale of a property further down the street recently for $550,000 suggests this should sell above $600,000 and probably below $650,000.

Capital gain of nearby properties:

18 Flinders - Sold 26/6/87 88,000 - sold 15/10/02 $545,000 (12-13% pa over 15 years)
land val was 345k, just increased to $475k ( up 130k in 12 months - not bad)
162 Flinders - sold 28/1/82 90k - Sold 29/2/00 475k ucv was 550k now 710k up $160k in 12 months.
208 Flinders sold 23/8/01 250k sold 24/12/01 312k 62k in 4 months
248 Flinders sold 12/10/82 68k - 31/5/93 320k ucv 450k now $580k. 1813m2. From the photo i saw my guess is now worth 800 - 1mil

About Sandgate:

Sandgate is an old suburb about 15km north of CBD. It looks straight out over Moreton Bay. Sandgate has undergone major changes in recent years with bikeways, gardens, cafes etc. Every weekend it is packed with people walking their dogs, having lunch etc and playing with the kids.

Traditionally it has been an area dominated by elderly people however that trend has changed significantly and is now very popular with the "Dinks" and "Yuppies".

The waterfront at Sandgate doesn't have sand, and for years it was just a wall to hold back the tides. Yes you do have to cross the road to get to the waterfront. There has been a heap of improvments done over the last ten or so years and it is a very nice area now.

Up the Sandgate end there are parks and BBQ areas availiable and then a short walk further around there is the Shorncliffe pier which has became quite popular in recent times.
A bikeway runs along the full length of the front from the bridge to Redcliffe up and around to the pier. Very sought after now, Sandgate has also been going thru an upgrade (see BCC plans) so to speak and is becoming very nice little town.

Originally most of the houses along the front were just your normal run of the mill colonials with a few exceptional old places there (some ex-flats that have been done up etc). But over the last ten years they have either been done up to the nines or knocked down to make way for some really quite exceptional houses. It is a very nice place to be now!

A little bit more statistical info on Sandgate.

Capital Growth in:
March 2002 quarter: 10%
June 2002 quarter: -4%
Sept 2002 quarter: 6.77%

Median price Sept 2002 $244,505

Average rental for 4017 postcode (Includes Bracken Ridge/Brighton/Deagon/Sandgate)(December 2002 RTA figures)
: $200/week.

Gross yield for the suburb 4.25%

About 32 minutes on the train to central station.

*****************************************


If the deal could have been presented like this in the first place why wasn't it? I hope Kevin and Asy do post deals in the future and I'm sure they will be much better received if presented as these two examples are - as unbiased and informative as possible.

Regards, Mike
 
Sorry to pedantic Mike

But

The Property is opposite waterfront , with never to be built out views.

It is NOT Absolute Waterfront and Kevins insistance on calling it such is incorrect.

When I've looked at properties , the distintion between those descriptions can mean a doubling of the price of the property, and if some one was to use that as a way of comparing prices this properties with Absolute Waterfront properties else where, they could get an incorrect opinion of the value of the property .

I am not implying that this isn't a good buy , and I have looked at the area from sandgate / shorncliffe up to redcliffe and I am seriously thinking of buying there at some stage ( and I am kicking myself for not buying ther 18 months ago when I looked , but you can't buy every where ) I think it is a good area to buy if your looking for capital growth .

BUT this is not an Absolute Waterfront Property.

See change
 

Sim

Administrator
For the sake of pedanticity (and the chance to invent new words) - I agree with see_change on this one.

My own definition of absolute water frontage is where your back yard is in the water, not where your front yard looks across the road to the water.
 
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