Western Sydney

I admire your courage and your strategy Skater. I don't subscribe to buying soemthing with a large negative cashflow either. I do subscribe though to a slightly negative cashflow, good growth potential, good rent and great tax incentives.

I'm also what you would call a lazy investor, that's why new property suits me. I couldn't be bothered doing quick renos, either myself or hiring tradesmen with a view to a quick sell.

Units can be just as good as houses for long term investment, in fact with our changing demographic (led by Sydney) I agree with Bernard Salt that they will be a better growth prospect than houses in the new future. Time will tell.
 
Units can be just as good as houses for long term investment, in fact with our changing demographic (led by Sydney) I agree with Bernard Salt that they will be a better growth prospect than houses in the new future. Time will tell.

But with a nice big block of land, you can bulldoze your house & build units. You can not do that by owning just one in a block.:D
 
Dealing from a well established and credible agent who does stringent research and due diligence
Buying from developers with sound and well established credentials
Buying in areas which strike a balance between yield and growth

These are all important qualities but they're in no way specific to buying new or off the plan. Please don't take it as criticism of your approach, just an objective response.
 
Buying out west being a 'suckers' game? That's a generalised statement. Like anywhere, north, south, east or west, if the figures work then you have bought well. For me, the figures have worked. I've bought out west of Brisbane and done well, I've bought west of Sydney and done well. It's all about research.
At the moment median priced new property in some parts of Western Sydney is good value. Good yield, reasonable growth.

It means that your returns will be below par, unless you have some edge or ability to maximise your returns.
If you can read numbers it's pretty obvious that apartments in west Sydney have not given the best overall returns in the last 20 years.
New apartments even less.
And it's no different for most other areas with few exceptions (there's always a few).
Research? Are there 2 sets of sales data?
 
Buying out west being a 'suckers' game?
I was going to let this one slide, but I've decided to bite. I believe Piston actually said "NEW APARTMENTS" were a suckers game, not the West in general.



New apartments out west, and just about anywhere else are a suckers game.

I have to agree with that statement wholeheartedly. You will get little CG in the short-term as most of the developers have priced a nice slice of that into the new price, so they get the gain, not the purchaser.

It is great that you are very enthusiastic about the area, however, one OTP purchase does not an expert make. The West has a lot of good going for it, but I do not believe a blanket statement advising everyone to invest here (especially advising new purchases) is the right thing to do.

I invest in the West because I live here. I know it and understand the locals. Like I said, there is a lot of good out this way, but there is also some bad. People need to know that and be comfortable with it. Just because you have something new and near transport does not make it necessarily a good investment.
 
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Pros and cons with both types of investments, and location DOES COUNT.
For my $$ I'd buy a house out west any day over a unit in the same suburb, but a unit in a more expensive suburb may be my only entry point. Then there's the question of which type of strata dwelling to buy- new, old, high rise, OTP, art deco, small complex, low ground complex, villas, townhomes etc

It really comes down to a no. of issues- the main ones being location, demographics of that particular area (including tenant demand/supply, scarcity value) growth rates, rental yields, true net holding costs, capacity to value-add (if that's your strategy) etc.

There's no one golden rule about which investment is better. You can have both (as I do) and reap the rewards.
 
Don't think I ever claimed to be an expert on Western Sydney and I thought the whole point of this sub-forum was to share opinions on where good places to buy was.

I believe Western Sydney median priced new apartments/townhouses/units whatever you wish to call them make good investments at the moment with the disclaimer that research is everything as is personal circumstances.

Based on my due diligence and experience I am more than comfortable with my opinion and purchase, especially given the fact I invest for long term capital gain.

As I said in earlier post, you can go round in circles with debates about new v old, houses v units. At the end of the day it's what you feel comfortable with and can manage.
 
As I said in earlier post, you can go round in circles with debates about new v old, houses v units. At the end of the day it's what you feel comfortable with and can manage.

So very true, Doozer. Every investor has their own variables and strategies, otherwise forums like this would be boring places indeed :D
 
Don't think I ever claimed to be an expert on Western Sydney and I thought the whole point of this sub-forum was to share opinions on where good places to buy was.

While you didn't come right out and say that you are an expert, when I read your original post at the start of the thread, it does come across very strong. So strong that a newbie investor might be swayed to think that new units in Western Sydney is THE place to invest.

Now, who knows? I don't have a chrystal ball. We will only know for sure, in later years when we look back. My opinion is different to yours and you will find that there are still others that would not touch Western Sydney at all. The point I am trying to make is that an investor should make their choice based on their own due dilligence and not be swayed by someone on a forum.

My opinion is that investors should be looking at Western Sydney for fantastic opportunities. Why?


Sydney is coming out of a downturn
Vacancy rates are negligible
Land supply is minimal
Rents are going up
New infrastructure has been or is getting built
Immigration, over a third of new Australians settle in Sydney
Low building approvals (1950's levels)

What properties to look for? Again just my opinion (but it's worked for me)

New apartments min 2 bed, 2 bath
Close to public transport/shops
Price range $250k-$400k
Suitable to local demography


The best advice I was ever given is don't invest anywhere with a population less than 250 000

Although one area that goes against this that I invest in and believe will continue to grow at some rate (driven from the baby boomers retiring) is Bundaberg.
 
It is great that you are very enthusiastic about the area, however, one OTP purchase does not an expert make

The implication is clear that you are disputing I am an expert on Western Sydney which I never claimed to be and never will claim to be.

I don't believe my original thread implied Western Sydney was THE place to invest:
"My opinion is that investors should be looking at Western Sydney for fantastic opportunities"

It is as stated just my opinion. I stand by my opinion as just that, not advice but just opinion. I agree absolutely that Western Sydney is not for everyone, nor is new units. I state my experience though as information that others may choose to use for their own circumstances.

Remember this forum and others like it should be about encouragement and healthy factual debate so as to inspire others to tread their own unique path.

Once it stops being this, people will be less likely to use it for fear of ridicule or discouragement and that would be very disappointing.
 
Remember this forum and others like it should be about encouragement and healthy factual debate so as to inspire others to tread their own unique path.

Once it stops being this, people will be less likely to use it for fear of ridicule or discouragement and that would be very disappointing.

I am all for encouragement and factual debate. That is what the forum is about. But how is stating what is a good investment (in your opinion) factual debate. It is not factual, it is an opinion. It also my opinion that West Sydney has some great bargains, but there are also many, many other areas in the country with great bargains too. If you know an area like the back of your hand you will find good buys almost anywhere.

There is a fine line between where opinion ends and specific advice begins. You not only identified an area - Western Sydney, but also a specific product - New OTP apartments.

I mention this because some people are easily swayed by someone who comes across as being very experienced who is strongly advocating a specific product ( New OTP apartments, Western Sydney) which could be completely wrong for their risk factor, income level, goals, etc.


There are quite a few long term forum members who are known to have multiple investments in Western Sydney, myself, Nathan and many others. However it is dangerous to say categorically that, and I quote, "My opinion is that investors should be looking at Western Sydney for fantastic opportunities," and I can not recall any of them coming right out and saying those words.
 
My opinion is Skater, based on facts. As you would recall from my original post citing low vacancy rates low building approvals, upturn in the cycle, rising rents and minimal stock. These are facts that I base my opinion on.

Someone can interpret these facts in a totally different way and come up with a totally different opinion e.g free standing houses being better investments. I will admire and respect that opinion if it is based on fact.

I do not and am not giving advice on specific products or services. I have nothing like that to offer. This is not the forum nor should it be to market such things.

It is a forum though that should be a safe haven for people to share their thoughts and opinions. Why is it dangerous to say investors should be looking at Western Sydney?

I don't discount yours nor anyone's else's local knowledge. Please re-read my original post where I also mention Bundaberg as a good spot to look. I have lived in Sydney, south east Qld, Bundaberg area (plus numerous other spots) and have invested all these areas in both units and houses. They all ahve pros & cons.

I have never claimed to be an expert on Western Sydney nor any other area. I do though stand by my research and will form an opinion based on this. There is nothing in it for me to do so other than to share knowledge.

There have been 'experts' though such as Steve Navra that have left this forum due to persistent criticism and discouragement from members on his methodologies. That should never happen.

If I was a new investor I would take what I have posted on board, then do my own research using advisors, accountants, brokers, agents, sales data, investment forums etc and conduct due diligence (income level, capacity to borrow, personal circumstances, investment goals etc-as I've said a few times in the thread) and make my own decision based on my own circumstances (something else I've mentioned before).
 
My opinion is Skater, based on facts. As you would recall from my original post citing low vacancy rates low building approvals, upturn in the cycle, rising rents and minimal stock. These are facts that I base my opinion on.


But these facts are not specific to Western Sydney. You are telling people to invest in Western Sydney, but no providing any specific information that tells anyone why this area is better than any other.


I do not and am not giving advice on specific products or services. I have nothing like that to offer. This is not the forum nor should it be to market such things. Why is it dangerous to say investors should be looking at Western Sydney?

Agreed! The point I am trying to make is that it sounds like you are. Now, I am not going to run out and buy something solely on a Forumite's say so. No matter who it is, I would do my own research first. But the facts are that some people don't do that. They read what someone has said and think "Oh, goody, XXX area is where I should invest. (insert name here) said so."


It is dangerous to say that investors should look in any specific area. For instance, I might think that the Gold Coast is a great area (or Melbourne, Geelong, Wollongong, Newcastle etc). I might even mention on the forum that I am currently looking into an area. BUT I would NEVER suggest that investors look into a specific area, just on my say so.

Now, if I was a buyers agent, that may be different. I would presume that you would have various disclaimers and such to protect you from those investors that just want to buy something without doing any sort of research themselves, but I am not a buyers agent, and I doubt very much that you are either Doozer.

Now, don't misunderstand, I am happy for every man and his dog to run out and buy property here. Sheesh! That would be lovely. It would increase my CG significantly. But it would not be wise for me to TELL everyone that they should buy here. Sure, take a look. See if the area fits with your investment strategy. BUT DON'T BUY HERE BECAUSE SKATER SAID SO! I don't want to be the one to take the blame if everything turns to custard because you didn't do your research.
 
OK perhaps I should clarify for those who take my word as gospel (and I thought that was just my dog!)

Disclaimer
I am not an advisor, agent, accountant, lawyer, salesperson, buyers agent or any other professional offering any product or service. My opinion is based on my own research and circumstances. If you are considering property investment then seek your own advice considering your own circumstances before making any investment decision
.

One area investors may wish to consider researching is Western Sydney. I have invested here but by no means does this make me an expert in the area. There are members on this forum that live in this area and may be in a much better position than myself to offer further insight into specific areas.

My investment in an OTP apartment has experienced good growth and higher than expected yield. This may be due to a whole host of reasons some of which may be minimal stock, high immigration to Sydney, low building approvals, low vacancy rates, local developments in infrastructure etc.

By no means is Western Sydney the only place to consider. South East Queensland continues to perform well as does some parts of Melbourne. Retirement havens such as Hervey Bay, Bundaberg, Maryborough, south coast NSW also may offer investment opportunities into the future.

Wherever you invest and whatever you invest in, do it wisely and enjoy the process. There may not be a right or wrong.

Caveat Emptor: Don't take my word for it. Do your own research, gather your own team of professionals and consider your own circumstances.
 
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