What Makes You Believe??

Hi all,

I read many threads on this forum where there is a religeous zeal attached to certain types/styles of investing or investment products. This is especially true of the 'followers' of certain investment gurus.

What actually makes you believe??

Is it because what they are selling has a greater track record than your own performance??

Is it because they were charismatic at a seminar, and everyone else seemed convinced??

Is it because they are rich and you are not, therefore following their advice will lead you to riches??

Is it because of something else??

Does anyone else notice how the number of posts in favour of the latest u-bute product rises substantially after the latest round of seminars??

bye
 
Bill,

Very interesting. I hadnt noticed an increase in popularity for certain products following seminars but it stands to reason that this would occur. That's just the marketing effect successfully playing out.

Personally, I believe in numbers. I like to see the black and white details of any investment and see it substantiated by track record and history. So, when I bought into Navra it wasn't because of slick marketing so much as it was due to recent performance of around 15% pa, and my own belief that the market was likely to remain the same so those results would likely be replicated in the near future. I've been in for 6 months now and have returned 8% so it appears my own due diligence was correct.

Similarly, when I buy a property I look at all the stats I can find on the area such as historic growth rates and rental yields. I then also apply my own view of likely future growth rates and then just do the math. If my holding costs are more than offset by the growth plus income of the place then its a goer. I also like to ensure I'm buying below market to get that early growth. I'm sourcing IPs with a twist right now as my personal take on the postcode I'm an expert in, is that its set to stay relatively flat for a few years. So, I want to build in some value to create my margin.

I'm also constantly looking at the best possible return on my money and the optimal mix of income and growth. So, if I hold the right mix of income and growth assets, but I think I can do better on the income side of things based on hard number analysis, then I'll trade that asset.

I'm not sold by marketers or slick salespeople. For me, its always just a case of "show me the money". BTW, I think in most cases they respect this approach as it means they don't have to worry about all the slick justification of "why to invest" and can just get on with the "how to invest", or "why this asset works" stuff.

Cheers,
Michael.
 
Bill

I think the answer is "all of the above".

You know, I hero worship as well - hard to believe isn't it?

Shane Warne is my sporting hero. The man is an absolute legend and can make a cricket ball talk, sing, yodel, you name it. Nothing that happens will ever make me question his capabilities as a cricketer or as a human being. On occasion I hear unsubstantiated rumours about women and mobile phones, but I don't know anything about that. :confused: :confused:

Yes indeed, the world of the worshipper is a very safe one.

Mark

(This post is somewhat in jest. The man is a brilliant cricketer and, by all reports, a very nice guy, but he does have some issues - you can't look at one aspect and ignore the other).
 
Bill.L said:
What actually makes you believe??
Morning Bill,
i went to a investment seminar in the early 1990's and as you know
back then the how,when,where and why of Financial independence
was clouded not like it is today,hows many modern gurus will stand
the test of time.if you can find a copy of a book .How to start with
no savings and get rick safely by Sturat Moore.What made me
believe in myself was this book all those years ago..
good luck
willair.......
/
 
Hi all,

Michael,

I find it interesting that you chose that fund, at that time when it had underperformed other funds over the same recent time span. So there must have been more than just the numbers. What gave you your belief in the future performance compared to some other funds, especially those that had outperformed over the recent history (I notice in some other threads that you are now changing your mix).

The concept of show me the money is interesting, as it is quite easy to set up a system that shows a great track record. All you have to do is optimise a system to a previous period that shows how well something works. Do you actually see the money, or the theoretical money (in the case of a new product).

Mark,

Many years ago, when I was a teacher at Hampton HS, we had this blond kid who could bowl very good leg spin. However he wanted to bowl fast like most other kids (wanted to be like Thommo or Lillee). A good wicketkeeper, who could stump kids helped to convince him to bowl spin.
When I was a teacher, I was always a cricket coach.
I can remember stating to him, when he had bowled a pearler to me in the nets that beat the bat, that if he could bowl like that all the time, he could play for Australia one day. (mind you I said that to a few other kids who showed great raw talent as well)
I've always followed his career with interest.

I wonder what is in our minds that makes us crave some kind of hero worship/belief.

bye
 
Bill.L said:
I find it interesting that you chose that fund, at that time when it had underperformed other funds over the same recent time span. So there must have been more than just the numbers. What gave you your belief in the future performance compared to some other funds, especially those that had outperformed over the recent history (I notice in some other threads that you are now changing your mix).
Bill,

Yeah good point. At the time though, my MF universe was much smaller. I had already had previous exposure to another MF which had performed very poorly over a prolonged period and charged a motza (technical term) in MER. So, when I saw a fund that was doing 15% and only charging a performance fee, I figured that's better than equity just sitting there not doing anything. That assumption has proved correct. Obviously since then my MF universe has increased and I am now diversifying. That was my point about constantly improving the mix if I spot something better.

It may not have been the BEST possible decision at the time, but it was certainly still a PROFITABLE decision at the time. We all live and learn and refine as we go along.

Cheers,
Michael.
 
For me it was something that person said which struck a chord with me , and something I could identify with .

What people do after that is up to the individual, but if you don't have that moment of recognition / empathy with what that person is saying , then all of the logical facts in the world won't shift a person's view point.

After that moment of recognition / empathy, different people will do different things depending on their own personality traits . Some will take that single moment and then religously follow every thing the person has said, and others will approach subsequent info with a more analytical view point. Most of us our somewhere in between.

For me the moment of recognition / empathy was RK's comparison between his rich dad and his real dad.

Although a direct comparision isn't appropriate , a lot of the belief sets that were common to his poor dad , were things that I'd grown up seeing in my family and had adopted in my own life. I'd already come to the conclusion that I needed to change ( ie it wasn't working as well as I hoped ) , but his description allowed me to crystalise into reality a focus / roadmap on how to change and move forwards.

As far as actual strategies , apart from a preference towards cash flow positive properties, I don't follow his fine detail. I'll listen to everything :cool:

See Change
 
Bill.L said:
Does anyone else notice how the number of posts in favour of the latest u-bute product rises substantially after the latest round of seminars??

bye

Hi Bill

There is a marked increase in posts about the newest product but isn't it part of the process to discuss and disect the 'latest' offering which makes up part of a DD process?

I agree that it is better to keep a level view about the product rather than either enthusiasm or negativity as having a level view one should be able to see both side rather than only the side your mind has already predetermined.

I must say that I have been to a number of seminars and come away enthused about the possibilities and then will proceed down a path to determine whether this 'new' oppurtunity can fit within my current sphere of investing. One in particular that comes to mind is wrapping which I looked into and eventually dismissed when I determined that within my context it is really a business rather than investing.

Cheers
 
What makes you not believe?

Answering the question: Believing in someone or something is a function of my experience up to that point in time, if someone tells me things I don't know and that I find useful and potentially helpful TO ME I tend to get excited and regard that person highly. We all have different levels of experience and bias we bring to our decision making, this doesn't make our due dilligence always right or wrong perhaps but just different.

I'm a fan of Larry Williams, have payed thousands for his stuff and will likely continue to do so in the future, it's been a +ve cashflow investment for me but it certainly wasn't when I started, then it was a leap of faith. Larry has his vocal detractors who point out the profits he makes from his seminars and question his skill and products and they have the lend of many ears, thankfully not mine though! I once paid for a 2hr seminar with a well known trading guru and walked out after 20 minutes, so I don't classify myself as a follower only.

Take what works for you and run with it, otherwise discard and keep looking.

Obviously this thread is motivated by you know what thread... Once again Bill I think you are wide of the mark in the delivery of your criticism. Online when you can't rely on non-verbal cues in communication I think the selection of your words has to be very carefully monitored. Religious Zeal, Flaming, Worlds-Worst, Links to scam warning sites... It's really hard to concentrate on the quality of the criticism when it's delivered in such a provocative way. Just speaking for myself and the forumites I have met in real life we are capable of thinking for ourselves so I'm not sure how many people need saving here anyhow.
 
Hi all,

Seech,

Empathy with some one is a very good point. It makes some of us blind to the bad points, only seeing what we want to see. Probably the same type of phychological patterns that help us chose a partner or group of friends.

Numbers themselves are not the only answer. If Joe Bloggs tells us to do something and can show us a magnificent record of it performing well(in hindsight) we will probably not take much notice. However if Warren Buffett showed us the same thing in a seminar, we would be falling all over ourselves to be involved, even if it was totally different to how he made his money in the first place.

Handyandy,

Keeping a level view is a great idea. To me a level view is to see all the positives and the negatives. Most of the posts that come after the new u-bute product, are just talking about how well the product will work, with a few questions thrown in about is it deductible here or does the loan count for serviceability etc,etc. There is precious little discussion about the possible negatives with them being spelt out.
Usually doing so gets the person labeled as a doomsayer and a person to be avoided as they know nothing/believe in nothing. (I am speaking from experience here)
I too have come away from a whole host of different seminars enthused about what they were offering/suggesting. I have also been to seminars where I was in a different frame of mind at the start, deliberately looking for the weaknesses (from the same group of companies). I found myself suddenly intrigued at how other people were mesmerised by the presenter (had I been like this at a previous event??). Any little mistakes/ommisions by the presenter were easily skipped over, no-one cared.
The rousing round of applause, the nodding heads, the smiles all round showed that it had been successful.

bye
 
For me, I went to a Spann seminar- and followed some of the ideas he taught. That got me into property investment, and I have done quite well as a result. For that, I have a lot of respect for what he says- his credibility was confirmed with my own success.
 
Bill, here's my 5 minute sound byte....

it is a given that homo sapien sapiens are not rational...well not anywhere near 100%...we didn't evolve that way...the brain has not evolved to individually process every piece of data independently and judiciously...we have evolved to make decisions hastily.......risk in relation to predators or a person with a weapon needs to be established quickly...and the brain has evolved pattern recognition to allow us to make decisions quickly, and thereby give us a survival advantage....sure, it isn't perfect or totally rational, but there is often a trade off between speed and accuracy in decision making.....

of course, rationality is a part of the evolutionary process too, though more recent....for many it is a struggle to suppress the older patterning system in favour of the newer more rational one...

another consideration is so profoundly conveyed in "necessity is the mother of invention"... we often don't change patterns until it is almost a life threatening matter, or the media and ASIC broadcast the hurt caused by the self absorbed behind Westpoint, HIH, etc...


Pattern recognition applies to evaluating investments as much as anything else. We look for :
- patterns in the reputation and manner of the person we are considering investing with
-pattern similarities between new investment product and our engrams on previous successful investments or readings and research.
- patterns in whether the opinions of others are congruent with our patterns.

I think many are perceived as more rational when they have more sutble or complex patterns to overlay on their observations of the world.....at the end of the day though, we are all heavily enslaved to the patterns within our engrams....

In summarising, human rationality is inhibited by:
- a lack of time to process data rationally
- a lack of computational power..
- limited available neural networks or mind maps or patterns in how to process data efficiently and rationally...very few have highly disciplined minds capable of acknowledging their own bias or thinking outside their own patterns..
- that we have millions of years of evolved hardwired circuits of pattern recognition that will cloud pure rationality...

i.e. how credible would a hesitant poorly dressed, inarticulate frugal type be in trying to sell an investment strategy? the two images just don't resonate according to our neural patterns. Much more effective to put your best suit on, talk loud and confident, lots of examples of how wealthy you are....well, that strategy works with 80% of the population, and that's all you need to make a 100 million before you are too old to enjoy it......(even if that frugal was Einstein)

This is just as true when choosing to decide what fund to invest in, what new car to buy, or house, or tube of toothpaste, and maybe even life partner.....we all have limited time and energy to make these decisions...

those that can exploit the patterns of the majority, by moulding themselves to fit it, are more likely to successfully gain others' trust, hence money....they are also very likely to be more successful in manipulating others to turn against those who would disagree with them...


as Andrew_A mentioned on another thread, it is very much all about a leap of faith whenever going with an investment not controlled 100% by self....


And it is made even more a leap of faith when we have to make a decision whether to trust a human rather then a trading strategy.....when you throw humans into the equation, I doubt what role explicit rationality has........what I am thinking of here is the process one goes about in selecting a life mate.....it will never be a totally conscious logical decision.....pattern recognition going back millenium in the deep recesses of our brains, will influence what we believe is a viable life mate........


_____________________________________________________

Apart from all that, the other reason we are prone to a bit of personality worship is because we like to reinforce the investment decisions we have made.....by selectively filtering out negativities about those decisions....think about how sentimental some become towards the shares they hold....or the presenter who's first seminar's strategies made them a motsa....

BTW, the reason I got screwed a few years ago, and still have a litigious matter hobbling me from moving forwards more aggressively is because I selectively filtered out data that might have made me doubt my investment......and the reason I filtered that data, was because there was someone involved who'd never advised me wrong before, and had made me quite a lot of money.....but she saved the big hurt till the end.....

Incidentally, I know a developer who's modus operandi exploits this. He builds relationships gradually....throws a lot of work at a contractor, over and over....let's them make money, let's the trust build...then he starts doing bigger and bigger jobs, then gets later and later with paying.....recently, a mate with an earthworks company was owed $800k by this guy......then this developer turns and turns hard.....starts accusing the earthworks company of not finishing jobs on time etc....and sues them for $3M in damages, and refuses to pay the $800k....this is when you need a deep pocket to get the best legal representation....... (if anyone wants to know the name of the developer, I am happy to put you in touch with the guys he has screwed. they are determined that this guys world gets a lot smaller)


________________________________________________________

Another point is that you cannot invest in something you are not aware of....and that is one of the first defences of advertisiing.....familiarity sells. if you put 3 non generic never adertised new brands of toothpaste up against Macleans or Colgate, great packaging, great price, etc etc...you'll still sell lmore Macleans and Colgate....why? cos ppl haven't heard of the newies before....they don't know whether they are good or bad.....best to go with what is familiar.....

this effect doesn't weaken until a product is very much a commodity.....but that can take decades and is never a pure effect, and some products like houses or shares or managed funds might be difficult to commodify, because so much is at stake, and there actually is a lot of variety in quality.....

__________________________________________________________


THough I agree BillL, it is in the interests of the human race, for all of us to develop more complex pattern recognition capabilities, and rely less on the more primitive patterns that lead us so readily and lazily and unquestioningly into surrendering one's will and discernment to another.........for just as there are so many who are apt to surrender, there will always be another supremely confident, charismatic, and bullying type not too far away who will exploit that tendency as means to attain their own ends.........even if that person's name is not Hitler....


Bill.L said:
Is it because of something else??
 
Bill,

Given your normal level of analysis I'm surprised you'd ask such as question.

If you're asking someone imbibed with 'religous zeal' to analytically answer the question in a manner that would satisfy you, then you're looking for NZ to win a series against Australia in Cricket, not going to happen (in the near future at least)......:eek:

Let it go

Cheers
Mark
 
Hi all

Both these methods work equally as well with the population

"Dazzle them with brilliance"

or

"Baffle them with Bulls...t

cheers
BC
 
see_change said:
Bone crusher

What I'd heard was " If you can't convince them , baffle them with Bulls..t:" ;)

See Change
Seech,

I think BC is close, I've always known it as:

"If you can't blind them with brilliance, then baffle them with bulls..t" ;)

That was our mantra during my consulting days... :eek: :D

Cheers,
Michael.
 
I think it's Charisma. We went to a Seminar and following that I invested $50k of which I've only got back $18k and I don't think we'll ever see the rest. This guy/company has lost a lot of investors money yet still negotiating with ASIC and still operating. I'm not sute what to do as ecah time we speak to him he's optimistic an dcharismatic, I know if we go to ASIC we won't see our $$ again but I am still holding out. I am so stupid.

Company was called Renovate Now now changed name to Aspecta. Stay away from them and Les Freeman. They structured the investment as a Unit Trust, the biggestd ownfall was just buying up too many properties but underestimating the time taken to complete, not enough cashflow to service the mezzanine loans and market not so favourable now.

The stupid thing we did was be too greedy, instead of buying into a project and having 1st mortgage security, we decided to but 1 unit trust in the company so we have no security at all.

I don't go to Seminars anymore. We are a Marketer's dream. Although I desperately wanted to goa nd see Michael Yardney in Bris but had no one to look after baby.

The idea was that we would invest into a company that is already doing what we do but on a bigger scale, we could get the same returns but no hard work. I guess we learnt a lot out of it.
 
What attracts me?
Well firstly, I'd have to interested.

Secondly, after the presentation, I would have to understand it.
Baffling me will only result in my walking away.

I would be interested in what I can get out of it, but equally important would be what they get out of it. Who gets the biggest cut?

I am also a believer in tried and tested. Do they have a good track record?

Lastly, I would check the benefits or liabilities when applied to my portfolio and ask myself is it really worth it and does it stem any liquidity and control of my existing setup.
 
Brenda Irwin said:
Secondly, after the presentation, I would have to understand it.
Baffling me will only result in my walking away.

I would be interested in what I can get out of it, but equally important would be what they get out of it. Who gets the biggest cut?
I absolutely agree with the points above Brenda.

IMHO, the presenter has to present stuff in a style and at a speed that is understood by >80% of the audience. If not, then it shows disdain, impatience, a hard cold level of arrogance. And if a presenter expresses that attitude in the early stage of the sell, then one can only imagine how they might regard the client if the product becomes a little unstuck...no return of calls, we warned you there was risk associated, if you didn't understand it, then you shouldn't have invested etc.....

My experience with wealth creation gurus is that they are very much in it to make money, and have limited time, patience, and concern for those who are a little slow. They are not there to patiently educate the slow and considered. They expect 20% or even as much as 80% of the audience to not understand or follow through... They take the attitude that the slow or indecisive, are not worthy or ready for the product....But that can so easliy be interpreted as the guru not having the communication or motivational skills, or the right product, to appeal to the superior crap detectors the slow and considered often have....

Another technique exploited by the gurus is to race through material, and expect you to keep up. If you don't then the inference is that you are stupid...and no one with any dignity thinks they are stupid!!! The speed delivery thing is also used to add a sense of urgency, so that you must act now or miss out on the time decaying nature of their offer. It is the same unsubtle manipulation used on demtel infommercials..

The baffling process is also due to many gurus not being skilled in presenting complex concepts. One of the true signs of genius IMHO is the capacity to present something complex, simply. The truth is simple, pure, beautiful.

I remember the first time I heard a high profile guy explaining his style of wrappnig...I thought, nah, he is leaving out a lot of detail here, lot's of mud....a serious can of worms...as it got more and more complicated...When I asked him specific questions about responsibility for rates and insurance on a property under wrap, his view was to not mention those things to the parties involved..... He lost me...

When first studying physiology, I remember struggling trying to understand the intiating factor in the cascade of events in renal filtration. The texts and lecturers I first heard just didn't put it together well. Then a brilliant doctor put up this diagram that made it all fall into place, simple, beautiful, pure....he had quietly contemplated, refined and distilled the essence into that one beautiful diagram....ahh the truth resonates deep inside when you hear it....



So, if a guru can't say something that resonates, then better to walk away and avoid their tangled verbal webs...

And yes Brenda, I agree I want to know what cut those upstream are getting...If there's no voluntary disclosure, then you have to presume it is a hell of a lot more then they are passing onto you...

They love to pass on risk, but rarely proportional reward....


_______________________________________________________

sue78 said:
Company was called Renovate Now now changed name to Aspecta. Stay away from them and Les Freeman.

Sue thanks for sharing such a rotten experience and raising Les Freeman's name. I'd encourage anyone considering giving money to someone else, to find out the full company structures and directors' names of the seller, then:
- google them.
- search Somersoft and Steve Maccas
- search asic and fido (if you are considering giving a lot of money, then pay to get the asic reports).
- search Austlii, the Australian legal databases.
- even search or email Jenman as he tends to keep up with all the cons (though many say he is a shark too)

It is amazing what you can dredge up.

Leslie Raymond Freeman
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/disp.pl/au/cases/nsw/NSWIRComm/2004/28.html?query=aspecta
http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic_pub.nsf/byheadline/04-416+Co-Develop+property+schemes+to+be+wound-up?openDocument
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?p=145100
http://www.kordamentha.com/national/display.aspx?ID=160

Renovate Now
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=106_365_931&juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1

Aspecta
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=095_519_832&juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1
http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?state_number=BN18671767&juris=4&hdtext=&srchsrc=1
 
I like this quote from The Magic of Thinking Big by Joseph Schwartz:


"It is well to respect the leader. Learn from him. Observe him. Study him. But don't worship him. Believe you can surpass. Believe you can go beyond. Those who harbour the second-best attitude are invariably second-best doers"

Mark
 
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