Which one of these is the best deal? (Innerwest)

I've been to Kinokunyia and read through most of the books they have on sale (Lomas, Spann, Do, Yardney etc

If you've read lomas, Yardney and the likes, you should get the idea by now that this needs to be approached like a business, in a methodical and planned way. Certainly you would know a lot more about growth drivers (among many other things) as a few of those authors talk in detail about it.

I feel like gumtree is a good adhoc site to use when renting out rooms. You definitely get a higher yield for a property with more bedrooms versus traditional method.

we rent a room out to people off gumtree for $150 per week, so I feel this provides some sleep at night factor as just 2 rooms per week will cover the negative. Granted this is probably not the best way to spend rent money, but I was thinking that this could provide the "sleep at night factor".

What about property managers? their role? screening tenants? reduce the risk of a bad apple? Keeping professional distance between you and the tenant? PM up-to-date with legislation etc that your not? Does any of this ring a bell from the books you've read? Landlord insurannce??

Still unsure of buyers agent. Feel like if I use them now I will never learn

There is still heaps for you to learn mate. BA only specialise in certain areas and generally only advise you on property they think is a good buy according to what you tell them you are after. You still need to determine the area, the strategy, the price range etc etc. Heaps for you to learn still. BA can be seen as a business consultant working on your behalf. It does let you leverage your time etc. Not saying this is the ONLY way to go, just an option.

The best advice I can give you is that if you are seriously interested to build a large portfolio that will allow you to retire on a passive income in the quickest time (don't we all want it in the quickest time) you really need to go over what you've learnt again becasue a lot of the basic stuff you seem to have missed/are not applying. I wouldnt listen to those who say just go for it and buy something etc etc. This is not the way to build a portfolio over the long term that is going to allow you to achieve your goals. Especially now more than ever, we need to be extra smart about how we plan to get CG becasue growth most likely wont be as 'easy' as it has been in the last 60-70 years. We need to be a lot more aware, educated, proactive and have a solid strategy in place, This will maximise your chances of success and achieving that passive income in time.

Good luck,

sesster
 
Thanks for the replies sesster. I know it must be quite frustrating talking to me. What I gathered from reading their books is that they believe both cashflow and strong capital gain (7% long term growth) is possible. I definitely believe this is true but in my opinion requires the universe to align when picking the suburb. I feel like you need to pick an area where the historical rental yield is high (e.g. Western Sydney when it's not booming) and then look at individual suburbs which have the good growth factors you mentioned (e.g. population growth, government injecting money, good foundation of infrastructure etc). To that effect I feel that in NSW, without having to travel too far, that Western Sydney and Newcastle would be very good options given that the government is pumping money into developing a new employment area near Badgerys creek in the future and also doing up Parramatta road etc. But I feel that this may only be one strategy available.
To summarise, this strategy would be ranked as:

Capital Growth 3.5/5
Yield 4.5/5

with the money you make being from a combination of yield (not having to spend much money holding the investment) and also making some money on capital gain.

Another strategy, in my opinion, would be to place even more emphasis on capital growth by buying inner city areas such as the ones listed in previous posts. In those cases, you basically almost disregard rental yield, and put your hopes solely on capital growth and manufacture of growth (renovation or rebuilding). In my opinion, the capital growth here is MORE GUARANTEED than Western Sydney or areas further away, but the price you pay for this assurance is the lack of yield. So again, to rank this strategy, it would be:

Capital Growth 4.5/5
Yield 2/5

Now from the books I've read, all the popular authors deem this to be less recommended than the previous strategy, and fair enough because if you cannot support the property, capital growth figures are meaningless.

So what I was originally planning to do, was to diversify anyway. To buy a blue chip in the city, and to buy several smaller ones in Western Sydney or higher yield areas to balance out the inner city ones so that the overall portfolio would be cash flow neutral and hence no drain on my personal cashflow.

What do you think of my thoughts?
 
Hi Dennis,

Your right in that you are going to need to have the servicibility to go on and keep building a portfolio. Once you determine what your end goals are eg how much passive income you would like and in what timeframes, then you can work out the size your portfolio will need to be. eg 3m will 2m net, or 5m with 3.5m net etc.

Then if i were you i would do this:

1. purchase property that is not yet a 'hotspot' but has a lot of those growth drivers you know about. This will require you to spend the time to research carefully. You can listen to what other experienced property professionals (eg terry ryder etc) are saying in terms of suburbs that may be a next hotspot, but ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS do your own due diligence to confirm if you believe they may be right or not.

2. Make sure you buy the property at a discounted rate (should be possible because remember you WILL NOT buy into any boom market). Also make sure that you understand the demographics of the suburb you are buying into so you can determine what is most prevalent in the area eg houses, units, town houses etc, then purchase according to that demographic. Its nonsense to believe only buy houses or units. You need to buy according to the demographic of the area. Always try to buy under the median value of the area.

3. Buy something that you can also add value to, eg cosmetic reno, subdivide, maybe add a room etc.

4. Aim for neutrally geared or maybe slightly negative. I hear you talking a lot about yeild. You are in the accumilation stage of your portfolio building, and CG is the aim of the game. Forget about trying to be hardcore positive cashflow. As long as its neutral or perhaps a little negative, you will be able to hold the porperty and realise the CG in the medium to long term.
5. Diversify. If NSW is in a boom market, then look at other states where they are say at 6 - 8 Oclock. Never, ever buy in a boom market. The reasons why not to is obvious. You'll also need to along the way, build a good team of professionals that will help you make sound decisions eg fiance brokers, lawyers, accountants, property managers etc. They are crucial to your success. You need to develop this team.

Make sure you have buffers for each property in place. This will give you some breathing space for those variables you can't really predict eg increased intrests rates, property maintenence, vacant periods etc

Good luck

p.s if you really, really want to be the best you can be and maximise your potential for success, then also work on developing your mindset. Very, very important IMHO. I found Jim Rohn, Brian Tracy, Anthony robbins to be very useful. I know so many "investors", and I use that would loosely, who will never achieve financial independence becasue their current mindset screws them over. When times get tough (and they will), when it all seems too frustrating and draining, when you go through disppointments, and failures and stressors, the only thing that will determine whether or not you survive to go on and achieve your goals is the mindset you have created for yourself.
 
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Hi Dennis,

Your right in that you are going to need to have the servicibility to go on and keep building a portfolio. Once you determine what your end goals are eg how much passive income you would like and in what timeframes, then you can work out the size your portfolio will need to be. eg 3m will 2m net, or 5m with 3.5m net etc.

OK, so to really nail this down then. My after tax income is about 1000 per week. So realistically, I can service about $200 negative in my whole portfolio per week. Ideally, I would like to first achieve $50K/pa passive 'money' (not income as I'm counting equity gained) and then eventually $100K/pa passive 'money', all in today's dollars. To that effect, assuming things grow at an average of 4% per year (counting in holding costs) moving forward, working backwards, we would need firstly $1,250,000 in today's equity and then $2,500,000 in today's equity. Right now, I have about $300,000 worth of investable assets, not including current investment property. Assuming $50,000 of that money is purchasing costs, that means I only have $250,000 of investable assests. Then, if I assuming slight negative or neutral cashflow for each property, at 80% LVR over the entire portfolio, I can buy $1,250,000 worth of property. If I go to 90% LVR, I can get to $2,500,000 already! Additionally, of the 35-40K pa I save, I could then buy $250k property each year, to be on an additional $2,500,000. So total after 10 years, it could be up to $5,000,000 worth of property. Now that does not answer the question of passive income because you can't really spend equity money for lifestyle costs, so technically assuming that 4% growth each year is 1% rental income and 3% equity gain, you would then need $10,000,000 in today's worth of property to retire on $100,000/pa of today's money or $5,000,000 in today's property to be at $50,000/pa. If you think about it actually $50k/pa is quite a lot to live sensibly if you own your own home. But that means in my case, my maximum passive income would be $50k/pa and $100k/pa would not be achieveable then. Are these calculations on the right track?

Then if i were you i would do this:

1. purchase property that is not yet a 'hotspot' but has a lot of those growth drivers you know about. This will require you to spend the time to research carefully. You can listen to what other experienced property professionals (eg terry ryder etc) are saying in terms of suburbs that may be a next hotspot, but ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS do your own due diligence to confirm if you believe they may be right or not.

2. Make sure you buy the property at a discounted rate (should be possible because remember you WILL NOT buy into any boom market). Also make sure that you understand the demographics of the suburb you are buying into so you can determine what is most prevalent in the area eg houses, units, town houses etc, then purchase according to that demographic. Its nonsense to believe only buy houses or units. You need to buy according to the demographic of the area. Always try to buy under the median value of the area.

3. Buy something that you can also add value to, eg cosmetic reno, subdivide, maybe add a room etc.

4. Aim for neutrally geared or maybe slightly negative. I hear you talking a lot about yeild. You are in the accumilation stage of your portfolio building, and CG is the aim of the game. Forget about trying to be hardcore positive cashflow. As long as its neutral or perhaps a little negative, you will be able to hold the porperty and realise the CG in the medium to long term.
5. Diversify. If NSW is in a boom market, then look at other states where they are say at 6 - 8 Oclock. Never, ever buy in a boom market. The reasons why not to is obvious. You'll also need to along the way, build a good team of professionals that will help you make sound decisions eg fiance brokers, lawyers, accountants, property managers etc. They are crucial to your success. You need to develop this team.

If that's the case, then within 50km of Sydney is out of the question then as we are booming. I thought the Balmain one would be perfect:
1. Drastically below median value (900k where the median is 1.3)
2. Discounted rate as the vacant land value is 891K already, so basically you paid 10K for the building.
3. Ability to add value e.g. refurbish and create a car space at the back of the property, renovating the indoors and also potential to knock down and rebuild later on as it is a good size chunk of land (200sqm).
4. Growth factors: 5-10 minute drive to Sydney CBD, 10 minute walk to Balmain Hospital, 10 minute walk to Balmain Public School, 10 minutes to Woolworths

The only thing creating difficulty is the cash flow which is roughly $180 per week out of pocket (after negative gearing). If I could guarantee that it would only cost $180-$250 per week for the next 10 years I would definitely buy it, I'm just afraid of the interest rates.

Realistically, I am looking to spend about $250k worth of equity/cash and then each year after the next, save 1-2 deposits per year and have one each year until the 10 year mark when all the money will go back into paying down the LVR of each property. To that effect you could have a mixture of expensive and cheap properties, or all cheap? What would you do?

Also, how do you read those demographics graphs? For example when you look at the incomes, what are you looking for? If the average house hold income for one suburb is $2500 per week, versus $1000 for another suburb, which one is "better" for capital gain? If there are more than 35%properties in the suburb being owned by investors, I'm assuming that this is "bad". If there are more families in the suburb, I'm assuming that they'd want 3/2/1s rather than 2/1/1s?
 
oh Dennis, Dennis, Dennis...

Your calculations scare the hell outta me, Your really clueless mate and you have too many way off assumptions.

I've realised that people are giving you good advice but because of your great lack of understanding the fundamentals, its just going over your head and/or you don't appreciate the value in the advice.

I'm happy to continue our conversation in 3-6 months time, after you really have read and learnt enough. Otherwise to be frank, its just a waste of time.

Good luck and all the best mate.

sesster
 
oh Dennis, Dennis, Dennis...

Your calculations scare the hell outta me, Your really clueless mate and you have too many way off assumptions.

I've realised that people are giving you good advice but because of your great lack of understanding the fundamentals, its just going over your head and/or you don't appreciate the value in the advice.

I'm happy to continue our conversation in 3-6 months time, after you really have read and learnt enough. Otherwise to be frank, its just a waste of time.

Good luck and all the best mate.

sesster

:D:D:D +1 Agree
 
I'm very surprised by the amount of books you have read that you thought you'd be able to service a $1million property
 
Then, if I assuming slight negative or neutral cashflow for each property, at 80% LVR over the entire portfolio, I can buy $1,250,000 worth of property. If I go to 90% LVR, I can get to $2,500,000 already!

Good on you for being keen and working out the numbers but I agree with the others on the thread. I think you're being over ambitious. There are many variables that come into play that can put significant strain on your cash flow.
A vacant property would obviously be the most difficult, and maintenance, tenants who don't pay on time - the bank will always be asking for mortgage payments on time.

When my income was 50-60k (gross) I bought a $300,000 unit in burwood which had a 6.5% yield. There was a lot of work that had to be done to clean the place up but it's a good example of adding value, good yield and capital growth.
It was certainly manageable and didn't put much stress on my finances.

Start small. Spread the risk. You may run into lots of financial stress if you borrow too much in one go.
 
Hey Bobby,

Yeah I was recently reading that article and the more I read the more I cringed:

Strike 1: Guaranteed rent ( almost always a negative catch involved)

Strike 2: cross collateralized loans (huge no no)

Strike 3: 15k a year in unknown/miscalculated costs (unforgivable)



All the mistaskes he made were totally avoidable if he just had some basic knowledge of property investing. No wonder its a very, very small percentage of 'investors' who make it past 2 investment properties.


Sesster
 
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I wasn't gonna go out there and buy 3 negatively geared properties. Just was going to do 1 inner west originally and then have all the other positively geared ones to support it as at the moment, I am $10 per week positive on an existing property.

Anyway, over these last few days I've decided not to go with any inner city property and just focus on cashflow positive/neutral (as you guys have suggested). Partly due to the upkeep costs but also the lower internal rate of return according to longer term projections assuming the same level of growth for areas closer to the CBD versus further away. I recalculated my spreadsheet to add in mortgage fees (pretty stupid for missing that) but also $1000 per year for maintenance. I also changed the annual income figure to factor in for 2 weeks vacancy. The new spread sheet stands at:
cmuWtld.png

Basically a neutrally geared property would have to be yielding a minimum of 6% per annum.

Right now I have a few options I feel

1) Not do anything with the money, keep saving and keep learning until the current boom in Sydney ends and then try to buy in to a distressed market in a few years time (hopefully).
2) Go to another state or satellite cities in NSW

What I've learnt from this thread is that maybe I should keep a bigger cash buffer for each property, e.g. 5-10K just in case emergency maintanence is needed and/or other unforseen things.

What was that third point you were talking about about 15k in unknown/miscalculated costs Sesster?
 
What was that third point you were talking about about 15k in unknown/miscalculated costs Sesster?

The three points I mentioned was with regards to the article Bobby posted the link.

2) Go to another state or satellite cities in NSW

That would be my move mate.

Dennis I think your passion is great and in time youll get there - I hope I didnt dishearten you. I just believe in keeping it real with people.

Sesster
 
Hi Dennis,

Any reason why you don't DD brisbane or any market?
Its getting harder to ge deal in Sydney.. Best time was 1,5-2 years ago
 
That would be my move mate.

Dennis I think your passion is great and in time youll get there - I hope I didnt dishearten you. I just believe in keeping it real with people.

Sesster

Appreciate the honesty, was hard for me to hear but learned to tread more carefully. The last thing you want to do is to go in to it blindfolded.

Hi Dennis,

Any reason why you don't DD brisbane or any market?
Its getting harder to ge deal in Sydney.. Best time was 1,5-2 years ago

Yeah, my hand is forced by the sounds of it. Might just generate a list of suburbs within 5-10km of the CBD and start from there. Properties with decent land value close to transport, hospitals and education.

I rejigged my spreadsheet once again. Discovered that you can't actually get true positive cash flow properties unless the yields are almost 7.5% (unless the maintenance is extremely low). For example:

Property Value: $220,000
Deposit: $22,000

Income (7.68% yield): $313 per week (net rent when rented at $325pw with 2 weeks vacancy)

Expenses:
Council: $19 per week
Strata fees: $31 per week
Water rates: $14 per week
Insurance: $8 per week
Property management (5.5%+1 week letting): $24 per week
Interest Service (4.94% V): $188 per week
Mortgage Package Fees: $8 per week
Maintenance: $19 per week
Total Expenses: $311 per week

Therefore: $313 - $311 = $2 per week positive (aka neutral)

There would be probably no where within 50km of Sydney where you could even get that sort of yield without doing some value add, unless it is below market, or buying in an area where capital growth is weaker.
 
If you are looking at $900k+ properties, why are you not looking at commercial at 7.5%+ net yield? Deposit (35%) would be my only thought as your limiting factor, but if you are looking in this price range, then surely you shouldnt dismiss the power of commercial, even at a lower price range ($500-$600k?).

pinkboy
 
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