Why be an employer ?

Discussion in 'Coffee Lounge' started by Macca, 18th Jul, 2012.

  1. Macca

    Macca Member

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    I have been following a thread elsewhere and this part of the new employment laws is currently being discussed.

    It would seem that any one who employs people is regarded as guilty of any wild accusation made against them by a disgruntled employee unless/until they can prove their innocence.

    Our laws have been turned on their head, this will be very anti employment once it becomes general knowledge, I for one would not employ anyone ever again because of it.

    Some links to an explanation of the law as it is now

    <<A substantial difficulty for any party facing a General Protections complaint, and thereby forced to defend their actions, is the reverse onus of proof requirement set in place by Section 361 of the Fair Work Act. The reverse onus of proof requires that an allegation is presumed to be true if a person alleges that another person took adverse action against them for some particular reason. The burden of disproving the allegation is placed on the second person against whom the allegation is made.>>

    <<Example
    John is an employee of a hardware store, Fix-It-Up Pty Ltd. John's manager, Peter, has advised John on a number of occasions that his performance of his role was below the standard expected. Peter undertakes a performance
    management process with John in an effort to lift his standard of performance.
    Peter formally counsels John on his performance deficiencies and finally issues a written warning to John that his employment may be terminated.
    John's performance does not improve to the standard required, and his employment is terminated.
    John notifies a General Protections dispute to Fair Work Australia, alleging that he has been dismissed due to his religious beliefs.
    Despite the fact that John's religious beliefs played no part in the decision to terminate his employment, Section 361 requires the former employer to prove that the allegation in regard to John's religious beliefs is not true. If the former
    employer is unable to prove that there is no basis for the allegation, the employer is liable for a fine of up to $33,000 and individuals who were involved in the decision-making process are potentially liable for a fine of up to $6,600 each.>>

    http://www.deewr.gov.au/WorkplaceRe...view/Documents/ConfederationofACTIndustry.pdf

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/...slipper_assumed_guilty_under_labors_laws/P20/

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/fwa2009114/s361.html
     
  2. Perp

    Perp Member

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    Whilst I do agree that employing people has become ridiculously complicated, bureaucratic, and onerous for employers, wouldn't records of the counselling for his work performance constitute proof that the grounds for termination were related to performance?
     
  3. Peter 14.7

    Peter 14.7 Wannabee Farmer

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    As an employee it is scary out there. It is a JOKE!

    We are very small Company and have had to terminate 2 employee and got taken to FWA on one. Even though we spend $1k a year on a contract program to ensure we are compliant. The outcome is confidential but whilst we won it still cost us $$$.

    Yes records count but in the end any employee can cry unfair and you the employer have to defend yourself.

    Employees can simply fill in one page pro forma. We do the same but sent pack 32 pages of detailed denial. Spent $3k on expert advice which in the end was to do deal as if we end to Court it would have costs both parties $30k each but they can self defend, lose and claim bankruptcy. It is actually a tactic to go to Court and know you will lose,,,, to provide pain to the employer.

    Workcover is worse, consider these....

    Employee have successfully claimed Injuries at Work under Workcover for getting hit by lamp in Motel whilst having sex at a conference on the weekend. How can am employer possible manage that risk!!!!! A chair that collapses yes but a lamp in some motel on the weekend in a bed!!!!!

    NSW is trying to get travel to and from work taken out and please do! It is ridiculous that and ampler is liable for when a staff walks out there do at home till the get home again. Again you cannot control wet weather, potholes, drunks staff, etc..... you not even allowed to.

    A joke, rant over....Peter 14.7
     
  4. moyjos

    moyjos Member

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    Yep employing staff is just waaaaay to hard now. All the guys we use are "as needed" contractors. All have their own ABN and a couple of them work for a few different businesses.

    They come in do the job as per scope given, hand me an invoice and I pay it. MUCH easier. We still have a OH&S duty of care for the workshop to be a safe environment, but basically we all are doing our own thing without the bureaucratic BS.

    Employees? NEVER EVER EVER again !!!
     
    quoll likes this.
  5. Peter 14.7

    Peter 14.7 Wannabee Farmer

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    I hear you, Thinking of doing the same!

    Aside from the benefits , most contractors are hard working and no layabouts. IF not they don't survive.

    Peter
     
  6. Peter_Tersteeg

    Peter_Tersteeg Finance broker/strategist

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    And people wonder why there's a shift towards contract and casual employment. I agree completely. All new staff initially start as contractors or casual. I only have one employee who is permanently employed. Had a few others over the years who I've used various means to 'encourage' them to move on of their own determination.
     
  7. china

    china Member

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    I guess there is a price for everything. You have to ask yourself whether the pain of being an employer is adequately compensated for by your increased earnings as an employer rather than being an employee. So if you are not earning significantly more as an employer, then you need to stop.
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Member

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    Yep; it's terrific.

    Question; can anyone explain why every form of manufacture (other than mining) has pretty much left Australia?

    The only ones left are retail and service, and you can't sack anyone as discussed.

    But thanks to Ebay and internet for outsourcing of services and retailing, we don't need either of them now.

    Shut the door and turn off the lights on yer way out, thanks. See you tomorrow and don't be late; I'll have yer redundancy made up by the end of the week..
     
    Last edited: 19th Jul, 2012
  9. BayView

    BayView Member

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    Yep.

    Close the doors boys and girls...don't worry about paying back any of those loans for equipment and finance to run the joint, as well as staff super commitments yet to be paid, long service accruals, redundancy and holiday-pay pay-outs.

    What overdraft, yer honor?
     
    Last edited: 19th Jul, 2012
  10. BayView

    BayView Member

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    But the Gubbmint says unemployment is down, MJ! :rolleyes::D

    I was talking to one of the local restaurant owners near our shop yesterday - came in for some work on his car.

    90% of his staff are casual - 4 full time and about 40 all up when it is busy.
     
  11. BayView

    BayView Member

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    The reality is that so many small business owners are so flat out working in their business to try and make money, they simply don't have time and/or any sort of system to handle this.

    Hell; most don't even keep good records for tax etc.

    Most people avoid confrontation, and to do what you say involves private interviews with the staff concerned, 3 written warnings, and not to mention the horrible atmosphere that would entail in the workplace.

    So, things get swept under the carpet and those practices don't get followed up to "keep the peace" so to speak.

    Many employers know what damage a disgruntled and/or resentful employee can cause - while still employed.

    Lots of eggshell walking for sure, and so when it all blows up and the Gubbmint dudes come in to say "what steps have you taken?" the response would be "a few words were said, and that's about all".

    Get out yer out-of-court check book.
     
  12. redwing

    redwing Progress Not Perfection

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    The three written warnings have to be on the same issue also, not three seperate issues ;)

    FWA will provide free legal counsel for the employee, you on the other hand get no one and even if you have all your ducks lined up with regards to paperwork, they can still take you to court, though thier preference is mediation and if not re-employment, then a payout for their client

    I know of one company who's told me that they just pay up with a $5-8k payment rather than get dragged through the courts, as he said...if you win, no one knows about it (confidential) if you lose, they'll make sure its known about and the costs and time aren't worth it, they know this also
     
  13. geoffw

    geoffw Untitled

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    On the other hand, if an employee leaves without notice, there's no real action which the employer can. It is not legal for an employer to withhold any pay unless the employee has employer's property (perhaps uniform or keys)- and employees very rarely ever fail to return these.

    I've had an employee send me a message "the reason I didn't come in for the shift that started an hour ago is that I quit"- and then proceed to tell me exactly what he thought o me. No punches held. But there is absolutely nothing I can do despite the rules for notice being quite clear.

    As has been stated, an employer must dot every I and cross every T.
     
  14. coastymike

    coastymike Member

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    My employees are Filipinos based here in the Philippines providing BPO services to the Australian entity. No issues with FWA here.
     
  15. Rolf Latham

    Rolf Latham Member

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    I have several clients that have set up small to medium businesses, with one doing 8 figure T/O................

    Its a serious workable and sensible option for many business owners, and as costs and complications rise, its one of the few "creative" ideas that can work for many businesses that have a high admin or brain work component.


    ta

    rolf
     
  16. Aaron Sice

    Aaron Sice Seldom Seen Kid

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    in the effort of securing the workforce for employees, we're effectively making it less attractive to hire them in the first place.

    we're creating mega govt and driving people to work there, now. soon, govt jobs will be the only position available, employed to look after each other.

    madness. circle of madness. it's like we're moving into a new age of serfdom - whereby you get a job at govt and you never leave because ther'e no option for you anywhere else.

    y'know, i once had a dicsussion with someone about how profit shares worked - they were a civil servant. they had ZERO idea how to break it down until i started talking in "Level 1, Level 2" salary ideas - then they got it.
     
  17. Rolf Latham

    Rolf Latham Member

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    didnt work for the USSR :)

    ta
    rolf
     
  18. geoffw

    geoffw Untitled

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    Attractive as that seems, that may not work for me. The subs would be a little stale by the time they arrived in Australia.
     
  19. Deltaberry

    Deltaberry Member

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    Well that's why I like to buy land in capitalist societies like Hong Kong.
     
  20. BayView

    BayView Member

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    Correct.

    It's not so much the cost (but it is a factor) - it's more the lack of being able to get rid of dud staff quickly and without sending you broke. It is no longer a level playing field...

    Years ago one of my golf colleagues caught one of his staff (an apprentice) tickling the till, and sacked him on the spot.

    Now; to me that is fair and reasonable, and I reckon you should have to repay the money no matter what - garnish their wages for ever until it's paid..

    My mate didn't ask for the money back; just said get lost.

    Guess what? He was sued for unfair dismissal and ended up paying the loser $7k out of court settlement.

    Tell me that works. Now he only employs old retired blokes for a bit of cash and free golf, and casuals.

    The irony is that the vast majority of employers like to acquire good staff and keep them, so there really isn't an issue of job security if you are honest and diligent and an asset to the business.

    Most employers are approachable and will work through issues that staff might have - at least that is my experience - to arrive at a solution that will work for all.

    But it has to be a give and take situation.

    Telling your boss to "get f*cked" might not be a sackable offense any longer (I recently read an article in our industry newsletter about this very event - the employee was reinstated by the court), but to get to that point means someone/both are showing lack of respect somewhere along the line.

    Add the Unions into the mix, who; from my experience are very much "worker's rights, worker's rights and worker's rights", then problems occur, and they will keep on pushing to tip the odds more and more in the owrkers' favour. Sounds fair?

    I think not.

    I don't know where it started, but the end result is now a climate of (for many businesses) less affordability and willingness to employ.