Why be an employer ?

If anything, judging by comments from the earlier generations, the environment these days tends to be more pro-employer - more casuals, more redundancies, less stability, etc.
This has come about through an ever-increasing volume of obstacles and potential issues which will end up with Employers having unfair dismissal claims bought against them, as well as the necessity to continue to run a business with staff, but to decrease costs.

Do employers want casuals?

Not really; most employers want full-time, reliable and productive staff.

But, we should also have the ability to be able to let go of staff if they are not up to the pace.

But this isn't how it happens now....

In almost all industries where permanent staff are the norm, you have to provide training for the problem staff member, counselling, written warnings, mediation - and even after all those correctly followed steps; the staff can still claim unfair dismissal.

He/she might not win, but the employer has had to spend a huge amount of time and effort with the problem staff, and then has potentially more time and cost on top of that with FairWork hearings etc.

For eg; when a staff member can be caught stealing from the company, be sacked on the spot for it (and rightly so) - and then claim unfair dismissal for not being sacked through the correct steps and win - or worse; the employer opts to settle out of court to save time and maybe more money; then you have the scenario we see developing today.
 
My question was very simple: would you be happy to see an employee surfing the net for an hour? Noone has been able to answer that question.
My industry is probably vastly different to the majority of SS workers these days - none of mine have ever needed/need to be on the internet other than to research things for fixing cars, or searching for part suppliers etc...occasionally done, but not for long periods and mostly I do it..

But, if I ran an office where folks had computers, and they were on the internet for an hour just surfing and not working while being paid; I would be less than impressed.

However; if they were exceptional workers and their productivity was really good most of the time, I would probably turn a blind eye.

But, if the productivity of that worker was generally consistently below expected; then we would be having a private discussion to make them aware it is not acceptable - given their work performance, and a First Written Warning issued if the productivity did not increase after a set period of monitoring..
 
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Property Girl,
Most of people here are pencil pushers.
They have never worked a physical job in their life...working in a factory as a labourer would be beneath them.

Yes, Im a part time pencil pusher. But I have come from the workshop floor up in one of the most physically demanding jobs you wont comprehend. The past 3 weeks Ive had be on the workshop floor and I can still hit it hard that you'll think you're surrounded.

Also what we do would rank in the lowest 1% of jobs people 'want' to do. "When I grow up, I want to be a Spray painter" says no-one ever!



Now if you asked them, if they hired a plumber by the hour, and they watched him constantly playing on his phone instead of doing the job, they'd be upset.

No, just no - this discussion is not talking about hiring contractors. This discussion is that between an employer and an employee. Very different scenario, with many different tangents which you are trying to use to deflect the argument.

Side note: How do you think you contracted the plumber anyway? He would have been on the phone during someone elses job, ordering your materials for your job while still being charged. Have a look past your nose in the real world!


When an employee is hired to do a job, they should be working on it.
If there is 'downtime', they should be doing something work related, as you suggested.

Unless of course they are human and not a robot - especially in physically demanding jobs as you describe. Me, knowing exactly how hard what we do is - expect blokes to take breaks, even as often as 10min on, 10min off. Its the nature of what we do.

10 characters.
 
Such a typical female response when they've run out of arguments or they're made to look bad..........

lol, why are you so uncomfortable with someone playing devil's advocate?

Emotional? The only emotional responses have been from people who staunchly support the rights of workers to spend time on the internet while at work.

Think: if I were to now justify all the reasons why employees should be spending time surfing the net, I would receive again an avalanche of hate posts arguing against that position, so that you can act like pack animals and go in for the kill. Laughable.
 
Now if you asked them, if they hired a plumber by the hour, and they watched him constantly playing on his phone instead of doing the job, they'd be upset.

When an employee is hired to do a job, they should be working on it.
If there is 'downtime', they should be doing something work related, as you suggested.

Absolutely. Bad management of resources to do otherwise. But some posters are so busy getting themselves into a spin and ganging up, that they have lost their ability to be rational.
 
In my team I was probably tougher on contractors (hourly rates or day rates) than I was on perm employees.

The reason being that contractors were more short term project based and more expensive - around 20% more. Even they were allowed non productive time though as long as their performance and productivity was as expected.

My permies who get no overtime etc except for the occassional Time Off in Lieu (TOIL) got leeway if they proved themselves and again were still productive. An hour of internet time might be a poor example but I would grant an hour off to go see a rental home open/doctors/dentist etc during business hours

I know that those who had proven themselves and been granted some autonomous rights out of respect could be counted upon to then pay it back when it comes time to big deadlines and happily work extra hours to make it happen.
 
+1 to westminster

That's why sales guys often do no work or can come in at 10, go for a 2 hour lunch and retire at 4
As long as they are hitting their targets or exceeding them
 
pinkboy said:
Unless of course they are human and not a robot - especially in physically demanding jobs as you describe. Me, knowing exactly how hard what we do is - expect blokes to take breaks, even as often as 10min on, 10min off. Its the nature of what we do.

BS!...I have loaded 30kg cement bags on a truck,done brickies labouring and other hard tasks....10min on,10 min off,your one lazy $ chewbacka that has no concern but yourself...Sorry i don't agree and would not employ you nor your workers at this slack rate.
 
Then you would be happy to let the boss see all the sites you visit during your work hours?
He's not interested. All he's concerned about is that at the end of the week, we deliver the output to the required standards/quality as requested.

In short, as long as deadlines are met and the work is of sufficient standard.

It's been the same for any place I've been at. And contrary to the expectations of Victorian-era factory managers, it works every time.

Like I said, unless you work in something like retail, data entry or a factory assembly line, and maybe some trades, there's no reason to have your every minute tracked and monitored. In fact, most basic work that requires staff to behave like robots will soon be replaced by...well, robots.
 
Now if you asked them, if they hired a plumber by the hour, and they watched him constantly playing on his phone instead of doing the job, they'd be upset.

Hi Kathryn, a lot of office jobs these days are salaried positions. Which means you get paid the same, regardless of how many hours worked. Personally, I like this system better as it encourages efficiencies.

Unfortunately, most employers still hold onto the hourly rate mindset, effectively giving them the best of both worlds. In other words, they pay a salary, but expect employees to be there from 9 - 5. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

To me, a salaried position means to get paid a set rate to do a set amount of tasks. If those tasks get done by Person A in say, four hours, then what's the point of expecting them to do additional work? If this is what the employer wants/expects, then they should pay an hourly rate.

Let's say Person B takes 8 hours to do the same set of tasks. Note Person A and Person B are both getting paid the same amount. If you (as the employer) expect Person A to take on more work, then you are effectively punishing Person A for being efficient and encouraging them to slow down.

When you address being paid by the hour, then your point is understandable, but what are your thoughts on the above example? The reason I ask is because the example I outlined above is exactly what happened to me (I was Person A). I actually quit the business I was working for, partly for this reason.

The other reason was when I approached my employer asking for a raise (to market rates), after the other two people in my section left the company, I was given a token raise, which still left me about 25% under market. So I was doing the work of 3 people (3 and a half if you include the extra work I did when I had downtime) for well below market rates.

You might respond with 'your employer appreciates you working harder'. That might be true in La La Land, but not in the real world. In my case, the employer merely took it for granted that I would take on additional work - in fact, it was expected and if I didn't ask for/take on additional jobs, they viewed me as 'lazy'. Even though I was doing the equivalent work of 3 and a half people (measured by the output of others in the office). I even had the practice manager come up to me one time and tell me to slow down! The reason for that was because I was helping another section with their work and was doing it at a much faster pace than they do it (and doing it to the required standard), making them look bad.

The boss actually sent me an email just prior to my leaving saying that my output had been suffering the last few months. At which point I showed him my record of work done showing that if hadn't decreased, but increased!
 
HOW TO PROPERLY PLACE NEW EMPLOYEES

1. Put 400 bricks in a closed room.
2. Put your new employees in the room and close the door.
3. Leave them alone and come back after 6 hours.

Then analyse the following:-

A. If they are counting the bricks, put them in the Accounting
Department.

B. If they are recounting them, put them in Auditing.

C. If they have messed up the whole place with the bricks, put them in Engineering.

D. If they are arranging the bricks in some strange order, put them in the PlanningOffice

E. If they are throwing the bricks at each other, put them in Operations.

F. If they are sleeping, put them in Security.

G. If they have broken the bricks into pieces, put them in Information Technology.

H. If they are sitting idle, put them in Human Resources.

I. If they say they have tried different combinations, they are looking for more, yet not a brick has been moved, put them inSales.

J. If they have already left for the day, put them in Marketing.

K. If they are staring out of the window, put them in Strategic Planning.
0
L. If they are talking to each other, and not a single brick has been moved, congratulate them and put them in Top Management.

m. Finally, if they have surrounded themselves with bricks in such a way that they can neither be seen nor heard from, put them in Government.
 
Hi Kathryn, a lot of office jobs these days are salaried positions. Which means you get paid the same, regardless of how many hours worked. Personally, I like this system better as it encourages efficiencies.

Unfortunately, most employers still hold onto the hourly rate mindset, effectively giving them the best of both worlds. In other words, they pay a salary, but expect employees to be there from 9 - 5. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

To me, a salaried position means to get paid a set rate to do a set amount of tasks. If those tasks get done by Person A in say, four hours, then what's the point of expecting them to do additional work? If this is what the employer wants/expects, then they should pay an hourly rate.

Let's say Person B takes 8 hours to do the same set of tasks. Note Person A and Person B are both getting paid the same amount. If you (as the employer) expect Person A to take on more work, then you are effectively punishing Person A for being efficient and encouraging them to slow down.

When you address being paid by the hour, then your point is understandable, but what are your thoughts on the above example? The reason I ask is because the example I outlined above is exactly what happened to me (I was Person A). I actually quit the business I was working for, partly for this reason.

The other reason was when I approached my employer asking for a raise (to market rates), after the other two people in my section left the company, I was given a token raise, which still left me about 25% under market. So I was doing the work of 3 people (3 and a half if you include the extra work I did when I had downtime) for well below market rates.

You might respond with 'your employer appreciates you working harder'. That might be true in La La Land, but not in the real world. In my case, the employer merely took it for granted that I would take on additional work - in fact, it was expected and if I didn't ask for/take on additional jobs, they viewed me as 'lazy'. Even though I was doing the equivalent work of 3 and a half people (measured by the output of others in the office). I even had the practice manager come up to me one time and tell me to slow down! The reason for that was because I was helping another section with their work and was doing it at a much faster pace than they do it (and doing it to the required standard), making them look bad.

The boss actually sent me an email just prior to my leaving saying that my output had been suffering the last few months. At which point I showed him my record of work done showing that if hadn't decreased, but increased!

Mr. Fab, I really do understand what you saying.
As an employee, I do understand this mindset.
As a manager, I also understand. (they are still only an employee)
As the owner of the business...I wouldn't agree

My answer would be if employee A was done in 4 hours, and employee B took 8 hours...how much goofing off was employee B doing? Were they also playing on FB, SS or some other 'non-work' project? Who knows...

As a business owner, I would finding out why employee B is so slow. Monitor all computer usage. Obviously if employee A can do it in 4 hours, the workload is far too low. If that means firing and hiring 2 different employees, so be it. (I'm sure employee A wouldn't appreciate having their work load increased for no extra pay) The new employees hired, don't know any difference.

I worked for 20 years in a factory, as a machine operator. We didn't do piece work, but we did have a daily quota.Management was constantly trying to get us to work more. They would take the best worker, who didn't have a 'slow' speed and they would time her movement,breaking it down and then decide if the 'quota' should be increased or decreased.
If we didn't make our quotas on a consistant basis, we were fired.

There were always co-workers trying to get her to slow down, while being timed. The fact is, the employer has a right to expect a full days work.
 
Hi Kathryn, I see where you're coming from, re: Person B possibly slacking off. I have no doubts whatsoever that is the case in many workplaces. However, what if Person A (me) had put in place processes and checklists to ensure work was done to the required standard, as efficiently as possible and Person B was merely slower in getting things done, not because of slacking off, but because they just weren't as efficient. Once I get the hang of a certain task, I can do it pretty quickly, my brain works at a million miles an hour pretty much all the time. What might take the average person X amount of time to complete, I can usually do faster. It doesn't make the other person a slacker, it just means I am more adept at that particular task than they are.

Piling more and more work on efficient employees is only going to see the employer end up with a workplace full of slackers, because the efficient staff are all going to go elsewhere, where their efforts are recognised, after they've recovered from burning out! The way that I work, which I find makes me incredibly productive, is that I will do 30 minutes on/10 minutes off. Sometimes I go longer, but I find if I go for more than say, an hour straight, I start to drift and my mind starts to wander, so I need that regular downtime to stay at my maximum productivity.

Now that I am a business owner, I intend to implement processes and checklists for future contractors (no employees for me!), who will all get paid a flat rate per job (similar to a salaried employee - although they get a flat rate per annum instead). How long they take to get the job done is entirely up to them - the quicker it gets done, the higher their rate is.

That's what I love about contract work as opposed to being a salaried wage slave - efficiency is rewarded, because the quicker I can finish a job (to the required standard of course) the more work I can take on, which means more money in my pocket.
 
I worked for 20 years in a factory, as a machine operator. We didn't do piece work, but we did have a daily quota.Management was constantly trying to get us to work more. They would take the best worker, who didn't have a 'slow' speed and they would time her movement,breaking it down and then decide if the 'quota' should be increased or decreased.
If we didn't make our quotas on a consistant basis, we were fired.

Wow,i didnt realise you worked at Mitsubishi!!!!( Chrysler)
 
These sought of threads have no real solution.


The sad thing is as an 'economy advances' the % of the population at the forefront of real business (for lack of a better term) declines.

started writing and then thought stuff it, whats the point, and mass deleted.
 
Wow,i didnt realise you worked at Mitsubishi!!!!( Chrysler)

Actually it was a carpet factory.

I would have rather worked piece, than hourly wage.


Mr. Fab
As you said, many on SS are salaried.
I've never worked for a salary.
How does an employee know when they have done what is required that day?
Is it black and white?
 
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