Navrainvest Fund Performance (Calender Year)

Navrainvest

Steve Navra said:
.....
The percentage figures shown represent absolute returns. Income funds then distribute the return as an income rather than capitalising value each year.

To date we have distributed 6.79% (half year) and the unit price is at 1.13. (13% capital growth) Since 01/07/04 ....

Regards,
Steve

Hi Everyone,

** warning newbie question on way **

Have organised for information/pds to be sent via mail for Navrainvest. Until then, Steve could you give us a simplistic example to follow... ie I invested $1000 with you either since the fund started or since 010704, and answer the following....

* What would that $1000 be worth today?
* What would I have been charged?
* What returns (as in cash $) would I have received?

(Sorry if this has been covered before) :)
 
Hi Muz,

Very good questions for a newbie :)
Muz said:
* What would that $1000 be worth today?
As per the fund calculator on the website http://www.navrainvest.com.au/index.asp?content=perf_cal
The Retail fund performance is: 31.05% (01/5/03 to 27/01/05)

Therefore your original investment of $1,000 would now be worth $1,310-50 (17.74% pa average)

An original investment of $50,000 is now worth $85,000 with compounding of the re-invested distributions!
See ** note below on compounding.



Muz said:
* What would I have been charged?
Charged?? :confused:

The above return is net of the performance fee!!
No performance fee was charged to the end of June 04; and the performance fee since 01/07/04 is currently at 1.42% (figures shown above are net of the fee)



Muz said:
* What returns (as in cash $) would I have received?
You would have received distributions as follows:
Year 03/04 10.09%
Year To Date 6.59%

**Note: If you had re-invested your distributions, then you would have received compounding interest on the extra amount of units held.

Currently your position for this financial year would be:

Year to date 01/07/04 to 27/01/05 (7 months)

Net fund return.............18.60%
Net distributed income.....6.59%
Performance Fee..............1.42%
Management Fee..............0.00%
Unit price........................1.1314



Regards,

Steve
 
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Reactions: Muz
AdamN said:
I have a few questions

Hi Adam,

Sorry, I haven't been ignoring you!!
All your questions have been previously answered in this forum . . . please do a search and all will become clear. :)

I will send you a detailed (because your specific questions do require the detail) e-mail
. . . answering these questions in full.

You might then like to post a response to that; giving your understanding to other members.

regards,

Steve
 
The first 12mths performance was ~10%
The next 9 mths was 21% which is a good absolute return, but nothing to rave about given market conditions and compared to the index.

It's still way to early to be "tootin horns" or to be dismissive after not even 2 yrs of the fund's existence thruogh a bull market.
 
dee said:
Ive found it hard to find good comparisons to the asx on the net, but this is one which is close. It tracks the ASX300

ASX S&P 200:
01/01/2004 3389.900
31/01/2004 4053.100

S&P 200...........19.56%
Navrainvest......24.04%

EXCEEDS INDEX BY 4.48%
 
Steve Navra said:
ASX S&P 200:
01/01/2004 3389.900
31/01/2004 4053.100

S&P 200...........19.56%
Navrainvest......24.04%

EXCEEDS INDEX BY 4.48%

hold on
Retail
Start Date:*
31/12/2003
End Date:*
31/12/2004
Performance:*
23.78%

Where are you getting your s&p figures steve?? please quote sources if you post numbers
http://table.finance.yahoo.com/d?a=11&b=25&c=2003&d=0&e=31&f=2004&g=d&s=^AXJO
http://table.finance.yahoo.com/d?a=11&b=25&c=2004&d=0&e=11&f=2005&g=d&s=^AXJO
ASX200 performance
31/12/2003 = 3299.8
31/12/2004 = 4,050.60
22.75%

for asx300
31/12/2004 = 4,056.10
31/12/2003 = 3,305.30
22.7%

outperformance for retail fund 1.03%
I wonder how vanguard got 27.06% - I will ask them

However if you look at those assirt/morningstar comparisons
I use etrade - they have a ranking vs market
they also have set the benchmark for aust market performance to be around 27% - so anything under that is underperforming
 
Those index gains are average figures, so if you wanted to be an average investor you'd buy the index. Beating it by a little bit is no biggie.

No one buys the index anyway so i have always thought it was an irrelevant comparison, not just the Navra fund but all funds who publish returns relative to the index instead of absolute returns. IMHO the comparison is even more irrelevant than the comparison to the huge super funds.
 
Steve,

I'm not quite sure if I've got this right, but since some of your returns come from dividends, even if the fund performed the same as the index, shouldn't you slightly outperform it to the extent you receive dividends anyway? ie. the index is just measuring growth where as the fund is measuring growth, dividends and presumably interest on cash as well.

Not taking anything away from 20-odd% this year though. Any year an investor can receive that they should be happy. :)




:)
 
Alan H said:
Steve,

I'm not quite sure if I've got this right, but since some of your returns come from dividends, even if the fund performed the same as the index, shouldn't you slightly outperform it to the extent you receive dividends anyway? ie. the index is just measuring growth where as the fund is measuring growth, dividends and presumably interest on cash as well.

Not taking anything away from 20-odd% this year though. Any year an investor can receive that they should be happy. :)




:)
Thats an important point Alan H. It's one thing to take a well chosen example from any given year and demonstrate the outstanding performance of that fund (out of thousands of funds). It's another thing entirely to replicate good returns over a long period.

Witness the compounding effect 22% p.a (Berkshire Hathaway) can have on the size of your capital over the long term.
 
Alan H said:
Steve,



Not taking anything away from 20-odd% this year though. Any year an investor can receive that they should be happy. :)

:)

I disagree because if the market is returning 22-23% as it has in 2004 you can achieve that without any effort whatsoever by buying the index or similar and as i posted previously its an average return because the index is an average.

A 24 % return when the index is returning 12% is pretty good but 2-4 % above the index is no big deal.

No one is going to produce 20% every year in every market and Buffett (Berkshire Hathaway) doesnt count because he pretty much buys companies and intervenes in the companies to achieve results rather than being a passive investor in the companies shares.

I consider share funds a bit like LPTs compared to direct property investing, you'll get a return with much less effort but an average return (sometimes less) rather then an excellent one.
 
It Is Very Easy To Pick Winners In Hindsight

Aceyducey said:
So Likewow - what comparison is relevant IYHO?

Alan H said:
Not taking anything away from 20-odd% this year though. Any year an investor can receive that they should be happy. :)

I think Alan has it right :)

There is only one reason that I ever mention the index and that is that we charge a performance fee based on the extent that we exceed the index.

THIS IS THE ONLY FEE WE CHARGE
There is no :
Entrance fee
Exit fee
Management fee

Other fund managers charge fees, irrespective of whether they perform or not.

There are many ways in which to invest one's dollars:

1) Property
Average CG returns are between 9% and 10% for major Australian cities over the past decade. Yes there have been some years of between 16% and 20+%, but these need be taken in conjunction with the less spectacular years.

Comment: If a property investor could achieve 10+% medium to long term on a property portfolio, they would generally be well satisfied.

Advantages:
a) Excellent Leverage
b) Low to Medium Risk

2) Shares:
Average CG returns are between 10% and 12% on the Australian market this past decade. Yes there are funds that have exceeded this average in exceptional years as well as underperformed spectacularly (Some of the geared funds at -60% in 2001) in less favourable years.

Comment: If a share investor could achieve 12+% medium to long term on a share portfolio, they would generally be well satisfied.

Advantages:
a) Good Leverage
b) Medium to high Risk

3) Cash:
Cash rate at about 5+% No CG, just the income and no leverage.

Advantages:
a) Liquidity
b) Very Low Risk
c) Income for serviceability.
----------------------------------------------------------------

SO WHY THIS OBSESSION WITH BEATING THE INDEX :confused: :confused: :confused:

Wisdom in HINDSIGHT seems to be the catch cry of the knockers and world authorities . . .

IF you had invested in ABC fund you WOULD have got X%

IF you had utilised maximum leverage in a bull market you WOULD have . . .X++%

IT IS VERY EASY TO PICK WINNERS IN HINDSIGHT :p

Example:
Skandia Geared Australian shares – return 60% last year.

Notice though that this is a new fund. (Started Sept 2003 during an unprecedented Bull run)

Please, before you comment, I am NOT knocking this fund . . . this is an exceptional result!!

The point literally is that any leveraged fund will perform exceptionally in a bull run.
With high levels of leverage, geared funds will generally under-perform just as spectacularly in a bear run.

The REAL POINT I am trying to make is that it all averages out over time and any result that exceeds the index over time is NOT to be sneezed at.

I offer a share fund to my clients on the following basis:

1) As diversification against their property portfolios.
Most of my clients are ‘property people’ who value add the growth of their property CG into shares. If I can continue to average 15%+ medium to long term for them, they will be way ahead of their non-diversified property portfolios averaging 7% to 10%.

2) Conservative Australian Blue Chip Shares:
So as to maintain the lowest risk profile in shares . . . structured this way to suite the clients preferred and requested risk profiles.

3) Structured Portfolios:
The share fund is specifically structured as an income fund to best fit the clients portfolio and cash flow requirements.

These world authority share experts that believe they can achieve many times the index year after year . . . please, Navrainvest is definitely NOT for you.

I aim to achieve the following:
a) Average 15% to 18% medium to long term for CG
b) Pay distributions in excess of 10% (or 2% greater than current interest rates) medium to long term for Income.
c) Maintain the lowest possible risk profile in shares, so as to match the requirements of my clients.

WHO CARES ABOUT THE INDEX when you are doubling the value of your total portfolio every 5 years

Sincerely,

Steve
 
Steve,

One question about your NavTrade strategy that occurred to me after the SIG meeting:

Your trading system buys in steps as the price falls and then sells in steps as it rises again. Am I correct in assuming that the rate of buying and selling must accelerate as the trend continues, so that the lower the price goes the larger the quantity bought and vice-versa?

Otherwise it seems to me that it could potentially be selling the same amounts and at the same prices on the way up as it bought on the way down, resulting in a zero gain.

GP
 
Is there a fund to beat the ASX accummulation index? For 2004 calendar year, it is about 27%. For the 2003-04 financial year, it was about 20%. If you can find such a fund that can achieve it after fees, you would have beaten the Navra Fund performance! This is by no means belittling the above average performance of the Navra Fund. :)

To my surprise and after two years of negative returns, my fund achieved a performance marginally less than the indexes above. :confused: I would characterise my fund as going with the best of the best - a combination of managed funds and own selection of stocks (250 largest).

The low fee index managed funds are meant to achieve the index outcome but none of them I believe has come close to achieving the index. I would gladly go with a managed fund that can achieve the performance of the ASX accummulation index and save myself the effort. Can anyone help? :cool:
 
Francesco said:
I would gladly go with a managed fund that can achieve the performance of the ASX accummulation index and save myself the effort. Can anyone help? :cool:

easy francesco
www.vanguard.com.au
http://www.vanguard.com.au/Personal_Investors/Learning_Lounge/Resources/Plain_Talk_Library/
http://www.vanguard.com.au/Personal_Investors/Investor_Funds/
they do index funds
try try and track the index
because its not actively managed MER's are typically much lower than an average fund

they are much more popular in the US
apparently most actively managed funds do worse than the index after fees
 
GreatPig said:
One question about your NavTrade strategy . . .

Your trading system buys in steps as the price falls and then sells in steps as it rises again. Am I correct in assuming that the rate of buying and selling must accelerate as the trend continues, so that the lower the price goes the larger the quantity bought and vice-versa?

Absolutely
:)

Steve
 
Steve,

The obsession with beating the index is because funds use exactly that as a means to show outstanding results, which arent really. If they used absolute returns not relative returns to show the funds performance, there would be no obsession with the index from potential investors.

Guys like Greg Perry, Anton Tagliaferro, Geoff Wilson....et al in Australia and Peter Lynch in the states achieve a yearly average of well over 20% in all markets with much larger funds.

A lot of people will transfer their money to the funds these guys are managing (if they move like Perry) regardles of the fund itself.

With the Skandia geared share fund the only increased risk is its an aggressive fund and could have high volatility and therefore requires a bit longer time frame. But the risk isnt what 'geared' usually implies as it is internally geared and investors have no more at risk then thier initial investment as with any fund.

Quick question: Does the transaction costs impact on the return with the high transactions of the 'dollar cost trading' system?
 
Last edited:
Francesco said:
Is there a fund to beat the ASX accummulation index? For 2004 calendar year, it is about 27%. For the 2003-04 financial year, it was about 20%. :cool:

I only have numbers to 30/11/04, but Perpetual Australian Share fund (retail)achieved the following after fees:
12 months to 30/11 32.2% ASX 200 Accum Index 28.7%
36 months to 30/11 14.3% ASX 200 Accum Index 10.0%

This is not a recommendation.

GarryK
 
Hi all,

I've been following this thread with a bit of interest, as the arguments flying around bring up some interesting asumptions that people have.

It's not like I would jump to Steve's defence on his fund as I disagree with the trading style, however we will leave that alone for now.

But everyone should consider the following.

1/ NONE of the indexes are a true reflection of the market over the longer term.

2/ The average fund MUST perform below the index.

If you don't understand the above, do some research.

What does the above mean?? Basically that Steve's fund has performed well for those who invested in it.
Also the fee structure, based on performance only, is very good.

bye
 
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