A comment on wraps

Okay, this is NOT intended as a debate on wraps - I could care less whether or not people choose to do wraps and what others think of them, so don't jump on this and shout me down.
What it actually pertains to is this comment by Neil Jenman: 'Unlike traditional loans, where the buyers become the owners, wrap loans are different. The title to the home remains in the name of the wrapper. The buyers do not become the owners until they make their final payment in 25 or 30 years.'
Okay, again, this is NOT an attack on Jenman either, but rather a question about his statement. In it, he says that loans from banks are different to loans from wrappers. In that, if wrappees don't pay their loans, they can be evicted, but he insinuates (spelling?) that those with bank loans will not be.
Umm, hello Neil? Try NOT paying your loan back to the bank and see what happens.... I remember reading an article about home 'ownership' a few years ago where the author stated that people who believe they own their home BEFORE the loan is paid out are kidding themselves - and I thnk he's right. You don't own the home until the last payment is made, standard loan or wrap.
The point of this is that it annoys me that those that choose to attack wraps use emotional language like Neil's to make wrappers out to be latter day pirates, like the banks are goody goodies that will let you stay in a home indefinitely whether or not you pay the loan back. Besides, all the banks are these days are just wrappers themselves. They buy money from the RBA and sell it at an inflated price to us, the consumers.
 
I guess each is entitles to their own opinion.

I feel the main difference is generally the type of buyer you are servicing.

If they had good credentials they would be entitled to finance thru banks.

That doesnt mean to say that some of these buyers have just had some bad luck and could be a low credit risk in the future.

It is also recognised that you are asking a higher interest rate to cover the increased risk.

Having been involved in a bit of media interaction. The media must make theirs stories sound eciting else they lose the viewers interest and gence market share.

You never want to let the truth get in the way of a good storey (tongue in cheek)

Dave P
:)
 
I would think the wrappers would want people to refinance out of the deal within 5 years using their payment history to satisfy debank rules.

Nobody is forced to sign the deals and they can compare prices before they decide to sign on.

Even if the playing field was leveled the 80/20 rule would still apply after a while, I know which side I want to be on :D

bundy
 
Mark,

I dislike the man intensely..

But.. his very valid point is this:

The people who buy the house, on Vendor Finance, are at the mercy of the person who wrapped it to them.. if the payments aren't made to the bank by the Wrapper they WILL get evicted when the bank forecloses on the property..

With a traditional mortgage they are entirely secure if they make their payments to the bank.

Of course this problem could be eliminated if people who want to Wrap just chose to go as guarantor on the loan for the credit impaired person, and the credit impaired person paid the guarantor a fee each month.. Problem solved, everyone wins :)

I also like the statement that someone made, I dont recall who.. That sometimes, certain people just dont qualify for finance for a damn good reason, Home Ownership is great.. but not at any cost.
 
Originally posted by duncan_m

With a traditional mortgage they are entirely secure if they make their payments to the bank.

Until they default on the loan to the bank, in which case the outcome is the same...

And wrappers do not play dice with the money from their wrappees. The wrappers I know have it set up so that the money goes direct to pay the mortgage first.

I believe there are more defaults on wrapping than 'standard' home loans - but there is more risk, that's why the wrapper can charge extra....

More risk, more return - not an unusual formula in any financial transaction.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Originally posted by Aceyducey
Until they default on the loan to the bank, in which case the outcome is the same...

Yeah I think I made that point.

And wrappers do not play dice with the money from their wrappees. The wrappers I know have it set up so that the money goes direct to pay the mortgage first.
[/B]

Yes but it doesnt cater for the Death or Divorce of the Wrapper, or the Bankruptcy etc.. The whole transaction is just a little bit shaky in my opinion.. Imagine trying to be a party to the probate process when the siblings are bickering over the estate for example.. Sure your position might be reasonably provable, but imagine the uncertainty you'd go through..

I'd rather rent than be involved in a transaction that is so fragile and dependent on Trust and Goodwil.
 
Originally posted by duncan_m
Yes but it doesnt cater for the Death or Divorce of the Wrapper, or the Bankruptcy etc..

Dunc,

That's why these transactions are set up in companies at arms length to the wrapper.....

Besides, it can all be covered in the legal agreements.

I'd rather rent than be involved in a transaction that is so fragile and dependent on Trust and Goodwil.

All transactions are dependent on Trust & Goodwill.

The government could change the laws tomorrow - banks could go down the gurgler or call in their loans. The stock market could crash. Legal agreements get broken. Your landlord could kick you out. Your home could be ordered to be demolished for a new highway.

You can't get rid of uncertainty.

If you trust the people you are dealing with & have built up goodwill with them, you're minimising the uncertainty.

You make software for a living - how important is goodwill & trust to your customers? And how important is it that you reciprocate?

You may consider it to be a fragile thing, but it's one of those ties that bind.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Hiya

Just an opinion........

Trust, Goodwill and just general appeal for a deal that is win win will ALWAYS beat paper or any formal agreement when things turn sour be that in wraps or any other forms of business thats done person to person.

My argument has always been that if I dont feel comfortable doing the deal sans paper then its not worth doing.

ta
rolf
 
Originally posted by Rolf Latham
Hiya

Just an opinion........

Trust, Goodwill and just general appeal for a deal that is win win will ALWAYS beat paper or any formal agreement when things turn sour be that in wraps or any other forms of business thats done person to person.

My argument has always been that if I dont feel comfortable doing the deal sans paper then its not worth doing.

ta
rolf


Rolf.. But really.. on your family's own HOME?? You'd accept a loan where you're dependent on the goodwill of a) another person and b) that persons estate or spouse if they died?

Sorry.. but my home is my castle.. I want it very very clearly defined that its mine.. No matter what happens as long I make the payments its mine.. (Edge cases aside like Compulsory Acquisition)


I'll take my chances with the Government etc.. but I'd never ever accept a wrapped loan from someone advertising in the Local Paper as the finance for my home.
 
Originally posted by duncan_m
Rolf.. But really.. on your family's own HOME?? You'd accept a loan where you're dependent on the goodwill of a) another person and b) that persons estate or spouse if they died?

Dunc, you've forgotten the structuring again. Most wrappers to my knowledge use a corporate & Trust structure so whatever happens to the person the legal relationship is secure.

You seem very certain that wrappers are going to get divorced or die & leave you in the lurch. Indeed you keep pushing this point despite it being a naive view.....

Have you had a bad wrapping experience or something? If so, share it with us so we have more insight.

I'm fairly risk-tolerant, so losing the 'family home' is not something I'd ever stress over (not for long anyway). I do understand, however, that some people are insecure & live in fear - it shapes their decisions and behaviours.

A lot of people (at least 10,000 in this country, though Michaelg may have better stats on it) have chosen to go the wrappee route, so clearly either these are risk tolerant people or the risks are less than are made out :)

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Originally posted by Aceyducey
Dunc, you've forgotten the structuring again. Most wrappers to my knowledge use a corporate & Trust structure so whatever happens to the person the legal relationship is secure.


Acey, no bad experience.. I have good credit, I dont need a wrapped home :)

The Death/Divorce is just an example.. certainly not a remote possibility given that 40% of marriages are affected by it (mine included! :) ) And the Family Court LOOKS THROUGH Trusts, you might as well own the property personally as far as the Family Court is concerned.. So you asserition that the legal relationship is secure is a fallacy.. It can and will get very messy.

Mark my words, the massive uptake of Vendor Finance in the residential market in the last few years is going to result in story after story about problems that have subsequently been encountered.. this isnt a flash in the pan for the media its going to provide them a great deal of entertainment over the next few years..
 
Hi Dunc

I think my point was that if you dont feel comfortable to do the deal without paper then it shouldnt be done. This applies to ANYTHING, including vendor finance.

On a Different issue, the estate planning stuff is a lot more complicated in ANY structure where there is ANY business involved. take a family businesss that has given long term leases on say commercial property - its tough but the estate has to generally honour the arrangement.

T

rolf
 
These comments on trusts controlling the wrap, (or any other business transaction), and then a divorce or whatever between the trust "owners" occuring, needs clarification I think.

Does anyone actually know, from experience, what would actually happen.

eg: Husband a Wife (H&W) have a trust. Trust sets up wrap, or other business transaction. H&W divorce and split assets.

Would it not be sensible for the Family Court to order that all future income from trust is split 50/50, or whatever %, and for the trust to continue its normal business activity for the benefit of both parties ?

As a married man, considering setting up a trust, and wanting to look to the future, this answer could be useful one day :)
 
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