Amendment of planning permit issue- neighbour from Hell

What was the difference in floor level?

the front of the house where my 3 bedrooms are, my hall way and 2 bathrooms are is only 180mm out. The kitchen and dining area is 650mm out but the lounge room is 1000mm out.

I've had another read of your OP.

It seems that your neighbour is being frivilous, although not necessarily vexatious. Asking for a 6m fence is absurd, and that demonstrates it being frivilous. If you are a small amount higher, then you should simply raise the fence by that much.

The council has approved it but unfortunately because it needs a planning permit your neighbour has taken the opportunity to object.

I would lodge with VCAT as soon as possible. You have no choice but to do this. Your neighbour has a legal right to appeal the council's decision, and by the sounds of it will not negotiate.

Also, since you have sold the front property subject to subdivision then this is holding up the sale, and will have financial implications if it is not passed. You have done everything in good faith, and done all the right things from a planning point of view. And it is a very simple matter. So I think this is a good chance of getting an early hearing.

Sounds good and that's basically what I have clearly detailed in my submission so we'll see how we go.

THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR RESPONSES ON THIS MATTER
 
the front of the house where my 3 bedrooms are, my hall way and 2 bathrooms are is only 180mm out. The kitchen and dining area is 650mm out but the lounge room is 1000mm out.

Is it a split level home on a slope? A one metre increase in height is quite a lot if it is the part of the house that is overlooking your neighbour? Have you infringed the building height plane by any chance?
 
Is it a split level home on a slope? A one metre increase in height is quite a lot if it is the part of the house that is overlooking your neighbour? Have you infringed the building height plane by any chance?

It is a split level home to an extent. The house is a single storey and although it is quite out in one part of the house, it virtually was a bunker to begin with. I dont believe it has infrindged on any building height plane, the house was originally planned to be built the way it has been built but apparently during the orginal planning stages of which I was not apart of as I purchased the place with the plans and permits, the floor levels were dropped. The house is about 5.5m heigh in total.
 
I'm confused. The house must be built according to the DA approved plans. You need an amendment to change these.
You are saying that the plans do not reflect the way the house was originally meant to be built? How do you know this if you weren't involved in the planning? How about a photo to show us the impact on the neighbour? Sorry to be acting like interrogator :D
Just trying to understand the situation.
 
It is a split level home to an extent. The house is a single storey and although it is quite out in one part of the house, it virtually was a bunker to begin with. I dont believe it has infrindged on any building height plane, the house was originally planned to be built the way it has been built but apparently during the orginal planning stages of which I was not apart of as I purchased the place with the plans and permits, the floor levels were dropped. The house is about 5.5m heigh in total.


Looking at this statement, I am hazarding a guess that the floor level was dropped after objections from the neighbour. Builder goes ahead with the original plans, ignoring the amendments (or not being told of them). An error of a few cm is understandable, but it is difficult to believe that a metre is an honest mistake.

I am looking at the big house over the road that is about 5-6m high up to roof level (it is two levels), a one level house of that height is hard to visualise. I would hate it to be overlooking my backyard.

No wonder the neighbour is annoyed, and has every right to be if this is the case.
Marg
 
I'm confused. The house must be built according to the DA approved plans. You need an amendment to change these.
You are saying that the plans do not reflect the way the house was originally meant to be built? How do you know this if you weren't involved in the planning? How about a photo to show us the impact on the neighbour? Sorry to be acting like interrogator :D
Just trying to understand the situation.

This is why I had to seek an amendment to the planning permit. I know that the plans do not reflect the way the house was originally built because I saw them at council during the amendment to permit stage. I'll get some pictures up tonight, stay tuned ;-)

Looking at this statement, I am hazarding a guess that the floor level was dropped after objections from the neighbour. Builder goes ahead with the original plans, ignoring the amendments (or not being told of them). An error of a few cm is understandable, but it is difficult to believe that a metre is an honest mistake.

I am looking at the big house over the road that is about 5-6m high up to roof level (it is two levels), a one level house of that height is hard to visualise. I would hate it to be overlooking my backyard.

No wonder the neighbour is annoyed, and has every right to be if this is the case.
Marg

I believe that was the case and had I knew this I probably would have placed much more emphasis on the floor levels but truthfully I never knew how important it was to them this is why I gave so many remedies to council given of course I cannot pull the house down. It is hardly a double storey house, it is a single storey house that all in all sits at around the same level as the neighbours which is 30m away, hardly the biggest of deals I would of thought esspecially given all the remedies I have given as apart of the amendment to planning permit.
 
Try mediation on a 'without predjudice' basis. If you can get the NIMBY to agree.
Honestly, people like this neighbour were the bane of my life when I worked in planning, they would deliberatly try and make things hard for people who were gutsy enough to have a go at development and had done the right thing by getting a good quality approval that everyone supported.

I would often go all out to make things hard for an objector like this (no, I dont suffer from the usual "we hate developers attitude of most planners").

Nothng I ever recommended approval on, in 15 years, ever ended up in court !!!!! There are ways to modify approvals to fix issues like this and still achieve privacy, it should have been left to the planner to support any amended development consent and deal with the neighbour's issues in the report and leave it at that. Thank God for no third party appeals in NSW (except for a breach of the Act, something which never happended to me).

Good luck with it all.
 
This is why I had to seek an amendment to the planning permit. I know that the plans do not reflect the way the house was originally built because I saw them at council during the amendment to permit stage. I'll get some pictures up tonight, stay tuned ;-)

I believe that was the case and had I knew this I probably would have placed much more emphasis on the floor levels but truthfully I never knew how important it was to them this is why I gave so many remedies to council given of course I cannot pull the house down. It is hardly a double storey house, it is a single storey house that all in all sits at around the same level as the neighbours which is 30m away, hardly the biggest of deals I would of thought esspecially given all the remedies I have given as apart of the amendment to planning permit.


I'm also confused. How many versions of the plans were submitted to the council for approval? Are you claiming that the council approved plans were the ones built to? You mention that you are on owner builder, as such did you build to the council approved plans? If so, I don't understand how she can object if it had passed council.

On the other hand, was the house initially constructed not according to the approved plans and as such you sought an amendment?

If the above scenario is the case, the builder is responsible for the big boo boo and responsible to rectify. I suppose those figures provided would be considered as significantly outside of any acceptable tolerances.

As the owner builder, who did the set out for the job? Did You employ the services of the surveyor to mark out the job? Anyhoo, I will never recommend anyone owner build unless they are involved in the building game as a tradie and have a fair idea as to how houses get put together and understand the standards and tolerances, BCA etc due to the consequences that can eventuate if the dwelling is not built in accordance to the BCA & Standards and tolerances.

Best of luck with VCAT and hope you receive a fair and favorable outcome.
 
I'm also confused. How many versions of the plans were submitted to the council for approval? Are you claiming that the council approved plans were the ones built to? You mention that you are on owner builder, as such did you build to the council approved plans? If so, I don't understand how she can object if it had passed council.

On the other hand, was the house initially constructed not according to the approved plans and as such you sought an amendment?

If the above scenario is the case, the builder is responsible for the big boo boo and responsible to rectify. I suppose those figures provided would be considered as significantly outside of any acceptable tolerances.

As the owner builder, who did the set out for the job? Did You employ the services of the surveyor to mark out the job? Anyhoo, I will never recommend anyone owner build unless they are involved in the building game as a tradie and have a fair idea as to how houses get put together and understand the standards and tolerances, BCA etc due to the consequences that can eventuate if the dwelling is not built in accordance to the BCA & Standards and tolerances.

Best of luck with VCAT and hope you receive a fair and favorable outcome.

Second point is the corrrect one.

I basically owner built, my dad was a builder for many years so we did this together using his license. This mistake was one we came across far too late in the piece for anything to do about so we sought amendment. I wasnt involved in the original planning stage so we were not aware how important it was to the neighbour. When we found out, we sought many fair and reasoble remedies to ressolve the situation which obviously from the councils end they believed were fair too so they approved it. BCA standards are not an issue here, the house is only a single storey and we are well below the heights that may have meant we were encroaching on these standards.
 
Section 173 Agreement

Apparently I can obtain a section 173 agreement which I can have council sign off on to allow for the sub-division of the front unit to go through and hence my settlement to go through? Anyone know or undertaken such a contract?
 
Mykie

1m out, how have you managed to do this?????

Learn to build a place to plans or don't do it all and Aaron why is this person a Nimby, if Mykie had of gone remotely close to the plans I am sure this neighbour would have said nothing as there would have been nothing to complain about. I wish you well with this but if I was in the same situation I would too lodge a complaint.

Jezza
 
I basically owner built, my dad was a builder for many years so we did this together using his license. This mistake was one we came across far too late in the piece for anything to do about so we sought amendment. I wasnt involved in the original planning stage so we were not aware how important it was to the neighbour. When we found out, we sought many fair and reasoble remedies to ressolve the situation which obviously from the councils end they believed were fair too so they approved it. BCA standards are not an issue here, the house is only a single storey and we are well below the heights that may have meant we were encroaching on these standards.
I still feel sorry for you, but don't you think that pointing out that you and/or your Dad managed to build the house up to 1m higher than was approved was a fact that perhaps you should have revealed at the outset? :eek:

As I say, I still feel bad for you as I feel confident in your sincerity, that it was unintentional and you're doing everything in your power to rectify the situation, but it's much easier to see why the neighbour is so upset. Revealing this at the outset would possibly have changed the advice we gave, as it's probably wise to be far more accommodating of the neighbour than would otherwise be the case. My forecast of your neighbour's chances at VCAT has just been amended.

Firstly, do you have any comeback against your father's insurances for his negligence? I know it'd be uncomfortable suing your Dad, but builders have insurances precisely for just such a scenario, and surely your Dad would understand why you'd sue his insurance company, just as you'd make a claim against his car insurance if you were in a motor vehicle accident which he caused. If he's not covered by insurance and would bear any responsibility personally, obviously I can see why you wouldn't want to do that. But I think you need to investigate this possibility now, because if this is possibly covered by your Dad's insurance, then 1) you may be able to avoid the stress of this whole drama by getting them to handle it, 2) they have probably been through all this before and can give you good advice as to likely outcomes and best way to proceed, and 3) you don't want to compromise your ability to claim by not involving them early (eg if you negotiate a settlement yourself where you have to pay the neighbour $10K compensation, they probably won't pay if they weren't involved in the settlement negotiations, even if they'd otherwise be liable.)

If your Dad's insurance company can deal with it, all well and good. If not, then my highest priority at this stage would be to seek some relevant cases which have come before VCAT in the past, and see how they were dealt with. If VCAT has usually held that Council is entitled to retrospectively amend approval without compensation to the neighbour, see if you can get a mediator to convince the neighbour of that, and persuade them to abandon their case. Perhaps offer some token compensation as a sweetener - a small bit of cash, a $500 nursery voucher for screening trees ;), etc, and see if you can convince them that this is more than they'll end up with from VCAT after their legal costs.

If VCAT has frequently awarded compensation into the $10s of K, then see if you can get a mediator to settle it prior to VCAT for a reasonable compromise figure, taking into account that you'll both save legal costs, and you'll also benefit from getting your development finished sooner.

Obviously if the only thing that will make them happy is a 6m fence, or for your building to be demolished, then you've got no choice but to press ahead to VCAT. But I wouldn't assume that this is their intractable position without giving mediation a solid effort.

Good luck in negotiating this delicate path. :)
 
Council should be able to put you on to a lawyer to prepare the section 173 agreement, will probably cost about $1000. Make sure you use one that prepares them all the time. Maddocks may be able to help.
 
thanks, my planning lawyer has already consulted with council. They are getting back to us today about the prospect of a 173 agreement, hopefully it all goes ahead and there isn’t much of an issue.

As for the previous comments, family is more important than anything and the idea of suing my dad and putting his reputation and license in jeopardy is something I would never consider. Only 1 room is a metre out, and that is the result of ridiculous planning permit that made no sense. The neighbour apparently found out about this long before, when we could have done something about it but instead of coming to us she went to council which took them 2 months to get back to us. In that time they had consequently approved all stages of the house. The problem with the surveyor's measurements is that they are inflated as they were done on ground levels that were excavated and not on original ground levels.
 
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