Anyone have a view on MBAs?

[Aceyducey]

Hi guys,

I'm considering starting a part-time MBA next year to extend my formal education.

My original degree was completed in 1991 and the scars of that tragic uni experience have largely faded (except for a willingness to wear togas and an intolerance for large quantities of alcohol drunk through tubes).

I'm also wanting some formal recognition for all the blood, sweat & relationship time I've put into developing businesses.

Anyone out there completed an MBA or started and not completed one?

Any perceptions of the value of MBAs from personal experience?
(not from the twat you met once at a party)

(If I invest in my education I expect a decent return!)

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[sailor]

Hi Aceyducey

I started an MBA in the mid 1980's only to do specific subjects that were of interest to me: Accounting/finance, Business Law, Management Training & Development, Industrial Relations, & Marketing. Completing the degree was of no interest and certainly wouldn't have added anything to my employability at the time or at a later stage.

The subjects I did have been most useful in running my own business ventures and in my property/shares investing, and to a large extent have enabled me to speak more intelligently to those more expert in these areas.

cheers
Sharon

 

[skater]

Hubby did an MBA part-time a few years ago. It has certainly helped with his career. His only qualification prior to that was as a licensed electrician. His income has nearly doubled since.

 

[MichaelW]

Craig,

I'm on the home stretch of my part time MBA now. I'm doing the E-MBA at the AGSM. For me its been invaluable as my undergraduate degree was in IT. So, I was missing all the real "business" knowledge required to be successful in industry. The best subject matter for me so far has been:

Economics: demand and supply curves, demand elasticity, substitute products, free market economics, consumer surplus, duopolies, oligopolies, tariffs and government interventions, deadweight loss etc.

Accounting and Financial Management: basic P&L and B/S reporting, marginal cash flows, net present value calcs, the importance of cash, all the other measures of success: NPV, IRR, Payback etc., ROE, ROI, ROCE etc.

Corporate Finance: WACC, equity versus debt decisions and the impact on WACC, equities: hedging, diversification (why, efficient frontier, expected returns and standard deviation), valuation by arbitrage, valuation of forward and future contracts etc.

Marketing: Segment, target and position (STP), the 4 P's of the marketing mix: Price, Product, Promotion and Placement., How to segment (demographic, psychographic, gender etc). Definition of an attractive segment, how to position, the difference between a marketing-centric organisation and sales/product-centric organisations.

Other subjects that were great but that I won't ellaborate too much on were:

Managing People and Organisations: Power and Influence
Managerial Skills: Know yourself and proactively manage your career
Continuous improvement beyond TQM: The importance of quality control, stats and bell curves

etc.

I've only now started my executive year and not it all gets really interesting. We are pulling all the 8 subjects to date together and now focussing on strategy. The first half is strategy formulation and the second half is strategy implementation. In strategy formulation you use stuff like Porter's 5 forces, SWOT, Uncertainty etc to understand how to formulate an appropriate strategy that addresses the external market conditions and leverages your internal strengths. That's very simplistic as there's a hell of a lot more detail in this area, but it paints the picture. Next year we start strategy implementation so I can't help you there yet.

But basically, its the best thing I've ever done for my personal development. I would not have the confidence or skills to be even half as successful as I am today without undertaking and COMPLETING my MBA.

Good luck with it. But be prepared to put in some really hard yards. I've been at it for almost 6 years now and its been a really really tough slog with lots of late nights and weekends given up for my personal development.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[ChrisOs]

Hi Craig,
I spent 4 years part-time gaining my MBA while also in full time employment. I have been working in IT for 30 years so it was definitely time to build up my general business knowledge. I finished 3 years ago and now look back on that time of study quite fondly but it was also quite a hard slog at times. There never seemed to be enough time in the day with a quite stressful full time job, 2 young teenagers at home, the wife, the dog, the cats, the house, the ...... you get the idea!

From reading your many posts over the years I don't need to be a rocket scientist to say that your time management skills appear to be excellent, which is half the battle.

I studied externally with the only contact being via telephone conference calls or e-mail and while I found that the easiest way to juggle my commitments and study in my own time, I reckon that I missed out on the networking that can come with attending lectures and doing group assignments. Anectodally, it is the networks that can be developed that are often as rewarding as the actual knowledge and experience gained.

Has the MBA helped my career? Not really as I was in a senior manager role before and still am, with no immediate intentions of changing employer. What I did get out of it was a very real sense of accomplishment and personal pride.

If you have the time, the energy and the funds I would not hesitiate to recommend you indertake the study.

Regards,
Chris.

 

[MarkB]

Hi Craig

I'm not an MBA as you know (I am an MEc), but having looked closely at MBAs (for a variety of reasons) I have the following POV:


- MBA's are, for the most part, 2nd and 3rd year undergraduate business units dressed up with flashy materials and sold at a very lucrative premium. It will be revision for you (at best).



- There are dozens of different MBA's on offer in Australia. Virtually every university offers one (why, I dont know), not to mention the variants of the EMBA, the MBA (specialisation), etc. Imho this devalues the qualification.



- Depending on what you seek to gain from an MBA:

a) If it is contacts and credibility then imho stick to an AGSM, MBS, or MGSM (or look at international programs)

b) If it is business skills, then most MBA's will likely suffice



- MBA's are so common now (and easy to get into) that imho the ROI to most of them is severely diminished compared from say a decade or so ago before the management education sector expanded greatly



- You have to wonder about the quality of candidates in some MBA classrooms



- I don't believe you will find anything in an MBA that pushes your (and I mean your) intellect.




What about a course run by the Australian Institute of Company Directors with a view to getting the FAICD postnominal, or something in Executive Development at Harvard Business School?

I would have they'd be more your thing.

M

 

[MarkB]

FYI:

Financial Times - TOP 100 Global F/T MBAs 2006

Warwick Business School (UK) MBA - this could well be the most internationally prestigious MBA that can be studied from Australia (FT Rank # 52) (It is available externally)

Btw. MBS is # 69, AGSM is # 75 and MGSM isn't in the top 100.

M


Edit.....

Another international rankings site - this one from the Economist Intelligence Unit.

Puts Warwick at # 28 overall.

Interestingly, if you change the criteria to "Student Quality" that EIU list puts MGSM at #1.

Not sure of the methodology of either list though.

M

 

[Dazz]

I haven't had alot to do with MBA's. I had the chance to do one straight after graduating with Petroleum Engineering, but everyone reckoned it would have been better to get a few years practical experience first and then go and get one. Never went back.

My brother-in-law who dropped out of college, finally finished his MBA just recently, and has since been promoted to State Manager in his field. However, he is pretty bored with his job and is looking at starting in the property development field and ditching the job altogether.

From an outsider looking in, it appears the MBA helps enormously impressing the bosses to climb the corporate ladder, such you can pay larger amounts of income tax ??

I'd rather just sit up the top of my own large ladder.

Like all of the mega wealthy back in the 80's who didn't have any qualifications at all....I'd be happy to pay an MBA 100 or 200K p.a., as long as they made me 1 or 2 MM.

 

[MarkB]

Like all of the mega wealthy back in the 80's who didn't have any qualifications at all....I'd be happy to pay an MBA 100 or 200K p.a., as long as they made me 1 or 2 MM.

Mark Barnaba, who was top of his class of something in the mid 80's in UWA's BCom, was hired by Allan Bond straight from uni and sent off to Harvard to do their MBA (on the understanding he worked for Bond on his return).

He did the MBA, returned to work for Bond - whose empire collapsed shortly thereafter (through no fault of the Mark B) and is now one of the wealthiest people in Australia under 40 (in 2003 the BRW had him at $18m).

M

 

[Aceyducey]

Hi Pitt,

Yeah I'm an AICD member and plan on one of their five day residential courses as well. Just waiting for some dust to settle (things to close) before I schedule the time.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[thefirstbruce]

I agree with some of the comments above...

that most subjects are dressed up undergrad commerce and economics....
have several friends with them and the ones that did Commerce, Accounting, or Economics didn't get as much out of it.......I view a MBA as helping to prep ppl with technical qualifications for management roles....

two guys who it helped most had theirs paid for by work.....one was around 28 when he did it. AMP gave him full time pay for 2 years while he did it full time....

I respect a MBA qualification, but not if it isn't acted on...

 

[kero]

how about this... do i need to be in a managment position to do an Mba? i always have the impression that the person would be in a management position before doing an Mba.

another question, can i tax deduct the cost of the Mba even if i'm not in a management position?

 

[sailor]

Kero, you don't need to be in a management position to do an MBA. Usually universities require as a minimum entry a previous bachelor's degree. It can be in any field.

cheers
Sharon

 

[DaleGG]

Hi

To put a slightly different reply forward...

I am not a fan of them at all. I meet many educated idiots with fancy certificates on their walls and impressive letters after their names.....it is practical life experience that means more to me.

Have fun

Dale

 

[MichaelW]

Hi

To put a slightly different reply forward...

I am not a fan of them at all. I meet many educated idiots with fancy certificates on their walls and impressive letters after their names.....it is practical life experience that means more to me.

Have fun

Dale

Dale,

That response is normally the defence of the uneducated which frankly surprises me coming from you. You struck me as an insightful educated man. Whilst broad-based life experience is important, it is just as important to have a theoretical basis in which to ground that experience.

The education itself is also a valuable piece of life experience. It teaches you fortitude, endurance, drive and tolerance whilst simultaneously empowering you with a whole new frame of reference through which to view the world. The letters after the name are not the reward, it is the learning and life experience the education delivers that is important.

In my experience, having both studied and travelled the world extensively, those with a university education are far more open minded and receptive to alternative points of view than those without a formal education. It seems the learning process truly opens the mind to embracing new ideas and acceptance and appreciation of differences of opinion.

Regards,
Michael.

 

[Jamie]

The education itself is also a valuable piece of life experience. It teaches you fortitude, endurance, drive and tolerance whilst simultaneously empowering you with a whole new frame of reference through which to view the world

You're saying going to University teaches you this, and living life doesn't? Studying teaches you fortitude and endurance, and working for a living to provide for your family without a degree doesn't?

I have a couple of degrees. I can't think of any of these esoteric things you've mentioned that I gained from studying, that have benefitted me more than the experience that Dale mentioned above.

In my experience, having both studied and travelled the world extensively, those with a university education are far more open minded and receptive to alternative points of view than those without a formal education. It seems the learning process truly opens the mind to embracing new ideas and acceptance and appreciation of differences of opinion.
Michael.

Sorry, I don't get it.

Those that have a degree are more open minded than those that don't?

This seems a very arbitrary argument - have you come to this conclusion based on empirical evidence, or based on your own experiences? The 5 or 10 people I consider to be most open minded and accepting of the ideas of others have never been to Uni.

Your viewpoint seems quite the antithesis of what you're trying to illustrate - you have a university education, so you're saying you're more open minded than someone who doesn't. Isn't that being narrow minded on your part, and thus negating the whole premise of your argument?

Just struggling to see your point here.

Jamie.

 

[MichaelW]

This seems a very arbitrary argument - have you come to this conclusion based on empirical evidence, or based on your own experiences? The 5 or 10 people I consider to be most open minded and accepting of the ideas of others have never been to Uni.

Jamie,

I explicitly stated "In my experience, having both studied and travelled the world extensively, those with a university education are far more open minded and receptive to alternative points of view than those without a formal education." And I stand by that observation based on my experience. I'm really glad that your experience is different from mine.

And in no way did I devalue the importance of life experience, all I stated was that a formal education is, in most cases, a very significant life experience for those that undertake it.

You're saying going to University teaches you this, and living life doesn't? Studying teaches you fortitude and endurance, and working for a living to provide for your family without a degree doesn't?

Be careful not to try and put words into my mouth. I never made that argument and would completely refute anyone that did.

My point again, given you're struggling to see it, is quite simple:

1. Formal education is itself a very demanding life experience that will personally grow those that successfully undertake it whether they are aware of that personal growth or not.

2. Formal education also has the obvious byproduct of educating you. It gives you additional frames of reference through which to view the world. I am passionate about personal growth and consider formal education a key component of this.

3. A final by-product of formal education, in my experience, is open-mindedness. Education stretches the brain and forces you to challenge your own assumptions. This very process makes you more receptive to new and alternative ideas.

Finally, I don't consider my viewpoint to be self-defeating. Whilst I hold the view that all of the three points above are true, I am not locked into this point of view. Should evidence to the contrary be effectively presented then I'd willingly discard any or all of these.

In the meantime, I hold that education should not be lightly dismissed as irrelevant. I hold in very high esteem those that have achieved a high degree of formal education just as I hold in high esteem those that haven't, yet have achieved high levels of success in other areas of undertaking. I don't consider life experience and formal education to be mutually exclusive, I consider formal education to be a complimentary life experience.

Regards,
Michael.

 

[coastymike]

I have a number of degrees but I tend to agree with Dale that life experience is much more valuable than a university education. I am not saying that a university education is not worthwhile or valuable but I have generally found that it is more useful for those seeking to move up the corporate ladder of a large organisation than entrepreneur's operating their own businesses. I must say however that even with a university degree unless you can think differently then it will just be a bunch of letters after a name.

Michael I do find that comment about "In my experience, having both studied and travelled the world extensively, those with a university education are far more open minded and receptive to alternative points of view than those without a formal education." to be interesting. I sometimes think the opposite. Look at most members of parliament who are university educated who say that marriage is not open to same sex couples. How open minded and receptive is this. What about stem cell research ? university educated tony abbott thinks it goes against moral and ethical principles. Wonder what he would say if his daughter was in a car accident and a paraplegic for the rest of her life. Maybe you just haven't met enough non-university educated people. I have many of them as clients, many of them wealthy and many who are open minded and receptive to alternative points of view. You just need to ask them.

Here are some open minded comments from some university educated people.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943 educated Millar School of Commerce

"Radio has no future."
Lord Kelvin, Victorian physicist and President of the Royal Society, c. 1897 educated at University of Glasgow and Cambridge University

"All homosexuals should be castrated."
Evangelist Billy Graham, a statement for which he later apologized. Educated Trinity College, Wheaton College

"Do you have blacks, too."
George W Bush, to Brazilian President Fernando Cardoso educated Yale University

"It doesn't matter what he does, he will never amount to anything."
Albert Einstein's teacher to his father, 1895 educated who knows where but lucky he even became a teacher.

Anyway as Dale says have fun

 

[alexlee]

A lot of degrees these days aren't designed to teach people to have broad viewpoints, etc. They're designed to teach (supposedly) knowledge and skills that you use in jobs. The more specialised and concentrated the degree, the more narrow it is. Actually, you can't really teach all the skills you need for, say, accounting or finance or law in a classroom because a lot of work is practical and people-oriented, so it's a pretty half-as*ed way of going about it. When I worked in an accounting firm we always said how I learned more in a few months working than 3 years in a classroom. The cadets (people who worked while studying uni) knew much more than we did.

Some degrees do teach awareness of the world, such as philosophy, history, etc. However, our world these days is all about specialisation and doing degrees that 'get you good jobs', with those increasingly being in professional fields such as finance, law, engineering, IT, etc. THOSE degrees do very little to broaden your mind or awareness of the world.

I think we should view certain degrees as what they are. Some degrees are done to get jobs, and they will not broaden minds. Some degrees WILL broaden minds, but they may not contribute to future income. Is an accounting firm more likely to hire an accounting grad with a very narrow view of the world, or a broad-minded and curious high school grad? The uni grad will probably get higher paying jobs, while the high school grad will have lower paying jobs generally but will probably be more interesting to talk to, and have more of a chance to be successful through business, sales, etc.

Back when very few people had degrees, degrees mattered more. Now that a lot of people have degrees, we have to think about what the different degrees mean. You're comparing graduates of different degrees, whereas a generation ago you were comparing between uni grads and high school grads. A degree is not necessarily an education.
Alex

 

[Rixter]

I am not a fan of them at all. I meet many educated idiots with fancy certificates on their walls and impressive letters after their names.....it is practical life experience that means more to me.

Great call Dale - I couldn't agree more.