Anyone Sued a Solicitor?

[josko]

What a predicament I have been placed in. I'm sure it won't go that far, but believe me I have thought about it.

Here is the problem:

I have a property that has been registered with the QLD Dpt of Land and Natural Resources in the INCORRECT Trust Name.

The Contract for the property is in the CORRECT Trust name.
The Loan for the property is in the CORRECT Trust Name.
All correspondence with the bank and banks solicitor is in the CORRECT Trust name.

In January this year I received a Land Tax bill for $3800. I was shocked as I have different trusts set up and have made sure I have not gone over the Land Tax Threshold within those trusts.

When I ran down the list of proerties listed under X Trust, I saw a property that should be under Y trust!

To cut three months of exhausting, frustrating conversation down, I had given up on finding out which Solicitor was to blame and wanted the mess sorted out. I need to fill out Forms 1 and 24 which transfers the property from myself to myself Myself being both the Transferee and the Transferor!

Then it dawned on me yesterday that I would be eligible for Stamp Duty!

After more hours wasted on the phone I found I had to fill out a form to the Office of State Revenue and apply for a transfer due to a Clerical Error.

In order to submit this new Form...I need the guilty party to write a letter admitting clerical error.

So here I am back at square one with neither Solicitor wanting to admit error and both passing the buck back and forth!

I am absolutely fed up with it, not to mention I changed my ISP from Bigpond to Optus and have spent AT LEAST 12 hours on the phone in the past week speaking to Indian people trying to sort out my wireless connections.

What is that thread about the Law of Attraction? It is so long I haven't got there yet...

Any ideas?

My SOlicitor says the Transfer documents were filled out according to the Banks Solicitor's From 14 which states the name of the Trust???

Bank's Solicitor is asking how they got a hold of the wrong trust? I have paid for a copy of the Instrument submitted to Dpt Land and Nat resources and Banks Solicitor has their nice big stamp on it.

Two possibilities:

1. My Solicitor sent wrong trust with Transfer.
2. Bank's Solicitor found wrong Trust due to loan on another property.


Regards JO

 

[LynnH]

Goodness, Jo, it certainly hasn't been the best of times for you of late, has it?

I had a problem with a solicitor re settlement on an IP. Vendors had separated and lived o/s and a family member had POA. I made a number of phone calls and wrote at least 2 letters to the solicitor, instructing them to ensure that the POA was registered with the Land Titles Office well before settlement was due - this didn't happen and settlement was delayed by 2 weeks!

Several problems arose as a result, including an increase in fixed IRs which left me out-of-pocket several thousand dollars. I lodged a complaint with the solicitor - their response was that, since I didn't inform them of the potential for an IR increase, it was my problem and not theirs!! Coming from a firm of solicitors who supposedly specialised in Property Law, this was a bit rich. I would have thought that this came under the category of "should have known in the ordinary course of business"!! And if they'd done their job, as instructed, settlement would have occurred on time and the IR increase wouldn't have applied. Grrrrr!

I contemplated taking the matter further, but decided it wasn't worth the angst and wasted time.

But by the sounds of it, you're going to be up for something considerably more than several thousand dollars.

Can't offer any suggestions I'm afraid - without documented evidence or some form of absolute proof, I think they'll both give you a jolly good run-around, unfortunately. But I do wish you the best of luck! Let us all know how it goes.

Cheers
Lynn

 

[Dazz]

I need the guilty party to write a letter admitting clerical error.

Not a problem Jo. Solicitors regularly write and sign off letters admitting they were guilty of clerical errors.

I've never known one to argue or deny anything was their fault. They are very upfront and honest. They have entire units dedicated to this honesty at University that they all study.

When they eventually graduate, they must take the mandatory "lying sack of sh**" Hypocrite Oath.

It all comes part and parcel of charging you only $ 100 for every 6 minutes.

See....if you wanted it to go smoothly, you should have paid a solicitor $ 200 for every 6 minutes of their time.

As they say, you pay peanuts - you get monkeys.


But then again, I'm probably not being fair. In fact, I really admire solicitors for their efforts. I reckon they are really good value. Jo - maybe you'd be best to just admit it was all your fault and pay them double.

 

[Raddles]

Hi there Jo
start by making your complaint with the firm and require remedial action - the purchasers solicitor is the one that prepares the transfer - that the bank in turn relies upon - I am not sure how the wrong trust got used - but in my opinion the buck stops with the purchasers solicitor
if they don't give you satisfaction lodge a complaint with both the law society and the legal services commissioner - this normally starts a process with a professional indemnity insurer - which will cost the firm in the long term if they don't do something quick smart
Ian Berry is the current law society president - so that is where correspondence could go if necessary
thanks

 

[josko]

Hi there Jo
start by making your complaint with the firm and require remedial action - the purchasers solicitor is the one that prepares the transfer - that the bank in turn relies upon - I am not sure how the wrong trust got used - but in my opinion the buck stops with the purchasers solicitor
if they don't give you satisfaction lodge a complaint with both the law society and the legal services commissioner - this normally starts a process with a professional indemnity insurer - which will cost the firm in the long term if they don't do something quick smart
Ian Berry is the current law society president - so that is where correspondence could go if necessary
thanks

Thanks LynnH,

Isn't it frustrating? They really are a law unto themselves.

I love how our NSW Solicitor rings my husband on the weekends or at 7pm when he wants advice. But when we spent 15 minutes in his office having him JP a loan, we are charged $250! I would love to see his face if Husband sent him a bill for his advice.

Thanks Daz,

You made me smile and I had a little chuck, I mean chuckle at your sarcasm.

And Raddles,

Thank-you! I am waiting on the banks Solicitor to get off his butt and retrieve my file from archives. I spoke to him today and all references he makes are to files he has on his computer. it is the second time he has told me he has to retrieve my file....If I don't hear from him within two days I will call him and do as you suggest.

I am SO hesitant to sound demanding as I have always found that if you are nice to someone, regardless of who is at fault, you can usually achieve what you need to achieve.

However, I feel I have been "nice" for long enough.

Regards JO

 

[Propertunity]

However, I feel I have been "nice" for long enough.
Regards JO

Jo, I had an issue with Citibank recently - I phoned once a month for 6 months. I was pleasant for the first 3 times. A bit more testy the 4th time. The 5th time said I was annoyed and the 6th time said I did not believe they had fixed the problem still despite being told it was 'all fixed now'.

After that it was a letter to their complaints department with a reference and a cc to the Banking Ombudsman.

Apologetic phone call from a Manager 2 days later and all fixed. Sometimes being pleasant does not cut it and threats do - go figure!

 

[craigb]

hi ya josko good to see ya fighting spirits are back , i'll betya a beer or two it was the banks solicitor, .
some days its so funny you could cry! i have em too! take a breath!

 

[Bradsdad]

i would suggest that they are all at fault. Unless the process is different from that of here in Victoria, you solicotor prepares the transfer of land. YOU then sign it. If it was wrong it should have been picked up then.
Assuming it was wrong (otherwise the lT may be at fault) the transfer is given to the lender/their solicitor. the transferee name should have been checked against the application and the contract of sale. From here you mortgage documents would have been made up and sent to yourself. what name appears on the mortgage documents (you should have been given a copy)?

I doubt it was the land title office as they wouldn't be able to just pluck a trust name out of thin air.

Regards
Steve

 

[Raddles]

HI there
the purchaser's solicitor prepares the transfer of land in QLD - but can sign on the purchaser's behalf - so the purchaser would not have had an opportunity to check the trust details
the problem with the trust is it is referred to via an instrument number (which is a lodgment number for a copy of the trust document filed with land titles) - there could possibly have been a typographical error at that stage
thanks

 

[turk]

Hi Jo

"In order to submit this new Form...I need the guilty party to write a letter admitting clerical error."

If as Steve suggested you had to sign a transfer form or that you can claim you made the error in not checking the paperwork, you can write the letter admitting the clerical error thus solving the problem.

Cheers

Pete

 

[AUSPROP...]

I am in the early stages of launching an action against a Qld lawyer for a disastrous conveyance. Will tell you how it goes when it is resolved either way.

 

[Raddles]

Hi again
Melbourne forum people - please note that a purchaser in QLD does not necessarily sign the transfer - their solicitor can do it for them - and perhaps herein lies the problem - Jo did not have an opportunity to check if all the details were correct
thanks

 

[Bradsdad]

HI there
the purchaser's solicitor prepares the transfer of land in QLD - but can sign on the purchaser's behalf - so the purchaser would not have had an opportunity to check the trust details
the problem with the trust is it is referred to via an instrument number (which is a lodgment number for a copy of the trust document filed with land titles) - there could possibly have been a typographical error at that stage
thanks

OKIE DOKIE.....there goes my theory out the window. Well at least most of it. What about the mortgage documents?

NB I appreciate this may differ and probably does. I just want to be completely sunk

 

[Raddles]

Hi there
with the mortgage documents the mortgagor will be xyz pty ltd as trustee

the only document which really identifies the trust is the form 24 which is prepared by the purchaser's solicitor
the mortgagee is normally more interested in the transfer document which gives the correct particulars of the mortgagor/trustee who will be the registered owner
it is normally expressed
xyz pty ltd acn 00000000 trustee under instrument 7000000 etc

if that instrument number refers to the wrong trust - is a typo or an error - then the purchaser will never see that and the mortgagee may not have seen the correct reference to the instrument number either - they are relying on the purchaser's solicitor to give them correct particulars
thanks

 

[turk]

OKIE DOKIE.....there goes my theory out the window. Well at least most of it. What about the mortgage documents?

NB I appreciate this may differ and probably does. I just want to be completely sunk

Happy to be sunk with you

 

[Piston Broke]

I dont get it.
Cant you get the solicitor to contact whoeva needs be contacted and rectify the error?
Is there no provision for a clerical or other error during these transactions?

 

[josko]

I dont get it.
Cant you get the solicitor to contact whoeva needs be contacted and rectify the error?
Is there no provision for a clerical or other error during these transactions?

Thanks for replies guys.

Raddles is correct. The Transfer Form 24 was apparently submitted by the buyer's Solicitor and on that Transfer it says "Josko G and Gosko G as trustees." Then it has a section for the name of the Trust and it is the incorrect trust that has been typed. On this Form 24 there is no need for signatures. Í've never seen it before.

I am waiting on a copy of the Form 1. The Form 1 is the form with signatures, I think. I have been told that the FORM 1 has "Josko G and Gosko G as trustees" on the form only....with a stamp from the Bank's Solicitor.

ALL correspondence from the Bank's Solicitor refers to the CORRECT trust. As you all know, with Hybrid trusts, I had to pay $250 for my Solicitor to sign a certificate in relation to the CORRECT trust.

Piston, the problem is they would rather sift through mountains of paperwork, resurrect files out of archives to ascertain where the mistake has come from and hopefully throw it back at the other Solicitor.

My Solicitor rang me late yesterday afternoon and told me there is another Form.... A Form 14 that the Bank's Solicitor can fill out and submit, stating that there had been a clerical error.

I then rang the bank's Solicitor and let them know this..to which he replied...."well I just have to dig your file out of archives and we'll go from there..."

Hopefully I will receive the Form 1 in the mail today and will have something to ring and bother him about again!

Regards JO

 

[josko]

PS: The actual Mortgage Contract and loan statements from the bank refer to the correct trust.

Property is insured under correct trust.

Regards Jo

 

[Raddles]

Hi Josko
if there is a lot of delays about getting the form 1 - you could actually obtain a copy via Citec confirm website
you actually search the dealing when the transfer was lodged and get a copy of the form 1 - obviously it will cost some $ to do that
the form 14 they keep talking about is a general request form which is used to rectify the register - see below


Guide to completing Form 14—General request
Request to change name
The following information will assist you to complete a Form 14—General request to change name details. This
guide only applies to changing the name of a natural person who is the registered owner of a freehold lot.
Important information
While individuals in Queensland may undertake their own property transactions, only legal practitioners are
qualified to provide legal advice. Therefore, discussions with the Department of Natural Resources and Water's
(NRW) Land Registry officers will be limited to explaining the requirements of Land Registry forms and procedures.
Parties electing to undertake their own property transactions must assume responsibility for ensuring the accuracy
and legal correctness of lodged documents.
Property transactions can potentially involve complex legal considerations; it may therefore be prudent for parties
to seek professional legal advice.
How to complete the form
Lodger details: Insert name, postal address, email address and telephone number for correspondence purposes.
Item 1 Insert the nature of the request as ‘Request to record change of name of a natural person’. Under 'Lodger',
insert the lodger's name, postal address, email address and telephone number.
Item 2 Insert lot on plan description, county, parish and title reference as they appear on the title or title search.
The reference to the plan must show the correct prefix (e.g. RP, BUP, GTP, SP).
Example
2. Lot on Plan Description
Lot 27 on RP204939
County
Stanley
Parish
South Brisbane
Title Reference
16723144
Item 3 Insert the full name of all registered owners as they currently appear on the title or title search.
Item 4 Insert ‘Fee simple’.
Item 5 Insert the full current legal name of the applicant (i.e. the person requiring the name be changed) and the
postal address for service of notices (e.g. rates notices).
Item 6 Insert appropriate words for the actual request (e.g. I hereby request that: ‘the name of one of the
registered owners be changed from …. to …. in accordance with the attached evidence’).
Item 7 Execute (sign and date) the form.
How to lodge the form
You may lodge Form 14 in person, between 8.30 am and 4.30 pm on business days, at an NRW service centre
with lodgement facilities. Alternatively you may post the form to any lodgement service centre. Locations of service
centres can be found on the NRW website <www.nrw.qld.gov.au>.
You should lodge the following with Form 14:
• a supporting declaration, on Form 20—Schedule/enlarged panel/additional page/declaration/title reference,
setting out the circumstances of how the name was changed (see page 2). The page numbering on Form 14
and Form 20 must be inserted.
• documentary evidence to support the request (e.g. an original certificate of marriage from the Registry of Births,
Deaths and Marriages). A copy is acceptable, providing it is a good quality photocopy of the original issued from
the relevant authority (e.g. Registrar of Birth Deaths and Marriages) and has either:
o been properly certified as a true copy of the original by a qualified witness (e.g. Justice of the Peace,
Commissioner for Declarations or solicitor)
or
Guide to completing Form 14—General request
Request to change name
2
o been submitted with the original ‘office copy’ for comparison with the copy by a Land Registry officer. The
original will be returned immediately to the lodger
• the relevant certificate of title, if one exists.
The document does not require a duty notation.
The form should not be folded.
Fees
A regulatory fee is payable for lodging Form 14. An additional fee will apply if the document is lodged through the
post. Contact Titles Registration Customer Service to obtain current fee information. You can pay by cash, cheque
or EFTPOS (savings or cheque account, not credit).
Further information
For further information contact Titles Registration Customer Service by telephone on (07) 3405 6900 or by email
<[email protected]>. Land Registry forms are available from the NRW website
<www.nrw.qld.gov.au>.
Example of supporting declaration
QUEENSLAND LAND REGISTRY
Land Title Act 1994 and Land Act 1994 FORM 20 Version 2
and Water Act 2000 SCHEDULE / ENLARGED PANEL /
ADDITIONAL PAGE / DECLARATION Page 2 of 2
Title Reference 16723144
I, LAURA MARGARET WINDSOR do solemnly and sincerely declare as follows:
1. I am the person identical with Registered Owner LAURA MARGARET BARNARD named in Item 3 on the
attached Form 14—General request.
2. My true and correct name is as shown in Item 5 on Form 14—General request as LAURA MARGARET
WINDSOR as on the 14th day of August 2006 I married GEOFFREY MATTHEW WINDSOR, as evidenced by
the copy Certificate of Marriage deposited herewith.
AND I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true, and by virtue of the provisions
of the Oaths Act 1867.
DECLARED AND SIGNED before me at Brisbane )
this 21st day of November 2007 ) LM Windsor
(Signature of Declarant)
WJ Brown JP(Qual)
(Signature of a Justice of the Peace/Solicitor)
WILLIAM JOHN BROWN
(Name of Witness in Full)
09/08

 

[josko]

Wow, thanks Raddles.

I have received the Form 1.

In regards to above info, (I would assume you scanned that info in and hope you didn't take the time to type it all in!) Thank you so very much!

It is as you say and the names on the title are correct and only have "
"JOSKO G AND GOSKO G AS TRUSTEE"

with absolutely NO reference to the trust name.

SO...it seems ridiculous that the title even be changed as it is in effect: exactly the same!

But I guess in reference the transfer number will be different and the attached trust to the Form 24 will be different. I understand one can't be without the other?

I would also assume that in lodging a Form 14, that I would not have to supply evidence of marriage or name etc as that would also be the same.

The Form 1 does indeed have the bank's Solicitor as the Lodger. (sigh)

Regards JO