Are banks still lending at a 97% LVR for investment properties?

Thanks Jingo :)

First, my strategy is to target properties under 300K, which limits the size of the interest repayments. Second, as I am buying significantly under market value, I get the added bonus of high rental yield. For metro properties, I will be looking for rental yields above 7% (my current property will return a 7.62% yield), and for regional properties, above 9%. The regional properties will serve to offset any out of pocket costs generated from my metro properties. So, I will ensure that I have 15 properties that are close to neutrally geared, or as a worst case scenario, only costing me a couple of hundred dollars a week to keep.

If only this were true. Your worse case scenario is worse than $200 a week! You still need deposits, the banks discount the rent you receive and you still would need to prove serviceability on the full loan with your income. Otherwise you'll be deemed rent reliant. And if rates go up there goes your cash-flow. Then you're stuck with a property with dubious capital growth, the main reason to invest in resi property.
I hope your calculations include rates, maintenance, insurance and 48 weeks rent rather than 52.
 
Be flexible

Hi Lisa.

Good luck with your goal. If I may ask:

1. How is it that you will acquire properties under market value?

2. What is market value in your mind as a definition ?

3. In this credit environment do you think lenders are going to value on comps
even if you've bought cheaper? You may find they value on the lesser of comparables or your contract price.

4. You are relying on a rising tide to lift all ships. Do you have a value add component to your acquisition strategy or is it merely passive by buying "smart" as you've intimated?

5. What sort of passive growth do you think you will get whether metro or regional to enable you to leap frog into other IP acquisitions?

Be very mindful of some of the posts already detailed above and especially Oscar's sage words.

I don't wish to rain on your parade, however in an environment of tightening credit, you may find your lofty ambitions (if they don't involve any active value add component) somewhat unrealistic. Think Big by all means, however also be flexible.....Oh and last question:

6. What are your contingencies and buffers and stress testing for interest rate rises?

You may find that by answering these questions and others like them (if you haven't done so already) you gain a better understanding on the positives and negatives of what you aspire to achieve in your chosen timeframe.

Finally, if you are being mentored by Nathan, please disregard the contents of my post above :p :D
 
Howdy LisaP,

i say go for it, if u aim for 15 and fail and get 7-8 that's not such a bad start anyway.

There is some crap saying about aiming for the moon but even if u fall a little short u r still among the stars!

The journey Lisa will be very interesting and i admire u for agreeing to detail the ins and outs and the ups and downs along the way. You will get smashed on here by people for many reasons but it will be very inspiring for others.

Also good that the someone doing a PHD on investing and will therefore be commenting on investment property in the media going forward is living the experiences not just talking about them.

Also in terms of the effect the credit crisis and NCCP and possible positive credit reporting will have on investors, well it ain't good !!!

It does mean though the banks who need to lend money to survive will think of ways to get round it and when the cash crisis ends (could be ages) there will be a big property boom in Australia as there is massive pent up demand from people who want to invest but currently can't access their equity to do so.


Good luck with the goals and don't let people questioning or knocking you put you off posting as it will be very interesting. Many of those will be offering genuine concern or guidance so don't take it personally.

Good Luck

BT


Good luck
 
If only this were true. Your worse case scenario is worse than $200 a week! You still need deposits, the banks discount the rent you receive and you still would need to prove serviceability on the full loan with your income. Otherwise you'll be deemed rent reliant. And if rates go up there goes your cash-flow. Then you're stuck with a property with dubious capital growth, the main reason to invest in resi property.
I hope your calculations include rates, maintenance, insurance and 48 weeks rent rather than 52.

I have designed a speadsheet that calculates the net cost of holding a property, once all of the above costs are taken into account:

Strata fees (if is a unit/apartment)
Council rates
Water rates
Landlord insurance
Property management fee
Agents letting fee
Provisions for repair and maintenance
X weeks vacancy
Interest on the loan

This gives me my total costs to hold the property on a weekly, monthly, quarterly, half yearly, and yearly basis.

I then have the spreadsheet estimate my total cash flow (profit or loss) based on:

Rent
Tax benefits
Depreciation (if applicable)

While I know the tax benefits and depreciation are a rough guide, I have worked this out based on Margaret Lomas' own calculations. I will not enter depreciation though, until I have obtained a depreciation schedule from a quantity surveyor. However, there are free depreciation calculators out there though that will provide a rough estimate based on the age, property type, floor area and quality of finishes, which you can input into the spreadsheet to give you a rough guide.

The other really nifty thing about the spreadsheet it that it allows you to input different scenarios, such as interest rate increases or decreases, rent increases or decreases, number of vacant weeks, maintenance etc, and it will automatically calculate the total cost of holding the property, cash flow (loss or gain) taking into account rent only, or total cash flow (loss or gain) taking into account rent, tax benefits and depreciation, on a weekly, fortnightly, monthly, quarterly, half yearly, and yearly basis.

So, as I purchase each property, I will be very mindful of the the total costs of holding the property, and I can create different scenarios based on what I think will occur in the future: such as a rent increase in the next 6 months (bringing my costs down), or an interest rate increase (which will increase my holding costs).

As a risk mitigation tool, I will ensure that I can hold onto all my properties if interst rates increase to 10%.

And if rates go up there goes your cash-flow. Then you're stuck with a property with dubious capital growth, the main reason to invest in resi property.

While I know that these properties won't be "blue chip", if every property is purchased at a hypothetical $200K, and I have 15 properties, I will be sitting on a portfolio worth $3 million. This does not take into account the equity that I have manufactured by either buying these properties under market or renovating them.

Another thing to take into account is that these properties will be spread across different locations, including metro, regional and other states, thus exposing my portfolio to different market cycles, and minimising my risk. Moreover, say my property portfolio only achieves a 3% increase in value per year, as it is worth $3 million, it is still growing by $90,000 per year.

Now another hypothetical is if the rates go up to 10% over the next couple of years (which I don't think is likely), it will cost me $1500 a week to hold 15 properties (average cost of $109 per property @ 10% interest, rather than $10 per property @ 7% interest). However, during this time, rents will also go up (more people will rent because they can't afford to own), which will reduce this amount, and I will have the equity to capitalise interest until the rates return back to normal levels.
 
Hi Lisa.

Good luck with your goal. If I may ask:

1. How is it that you will acquire properties under market value?

Looking for properties that are:

- Listed to sell quickly
- Listed incorrectly (agent does not know the market well)
- Vendor or agent not seeing full opportunity of property

2. What is market value in your mind as a definition ?

In my mind, market value can be determined by comparable sales in the same area over the last 3 months. The closer these comparable sales are to the property in question, (i.e the same street or same complex) the better.

3. In this credit environment do you think lenders are going to value on comps even if you've bought cheaper? You may find they value on the lesser of comparables or your contract price.

This may be a problem. For example, if you buy five units in the same complex really cheaply, a lender will value based on those sales. The aim is to ensure that comparable property prices are significantly higher than your property.

4. You are relying on a rising tide to lift all ships. Do you have a value add component to your acquisition strategy or is it merely passive by buying "smart" as you've intimated?
A combination of both. My first property will require a renovation, however some properties will create equity purely based on buying "smart".

5. What sort of passive growth do you think you will get whether metro or regional to enable you to leap frog into other IP acquisitions?

Be very mindful of some of the posts already detailed above and especially Oscar's sage words.

I don't wish to rain on your parade, however in an environment of tightening credit, you may find your lofty ambitions (if they don't involve any active value add component) somewhat unrealistic. Think Big by all means, however also be flexible.....Oh and last question:

6. What are your contingencies and buffers and stress testing for interest rate rises?

See my above post regarding the above :)

Finally, if you are being mentored by Nathan, please disregard the contents of my post above :p :D

Yes, I am lucky to be learning from the best, including Nathan. And I have to say, from what I've seen so far, I'm very impressed!!! :D
 
Thanks for your responses Lisa. :)

Your journey should make for interesting and informative processes. Please journal your succe$$es and the sour moments so that we can all learn from and support your road ahead.



................................................Good luck with the goals and don't let people questioning or knocking you put you off posting as it will be very interesting. Many of those will be offering genuine concern or guidance so don't take it personally.

Good Luck

BT


Good luck

What he said. Indeed, this is certainly nothing personal; merely trying to flesh out how/what you are thinking to either genuinely assist/guide or cause you to reflect and take any necessary detours when there are obstacles or too many forks in the road. ;)

All the best.
 
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Howdy LisaP,

i say go for it, if u aim for 15 and fail and get 7-8 that's not such a bad start anyway. There is some crap saying about aiming for the moon but even if u fall a little short u r still among the stars!

Thanks for your words of encouragment BT, they mean a lot, as hearing about your journey was really the ignition that got my fired up again about my own property investing.

It's taken me a number of years to finally find an investment strategy that feels right for me. When you know, you know - if that makes sense - and I am confident that I will achieve my goals (or come damn close!).

Also good that the someone doing a PHD on investing and will therefore be commenting on investment property in the media going forward is living the experiences not just talking about them.

And yes, I have pointed out in my thesis that being an insider to the phenomenon provides me with a number of advantages; a ‘special vantage point’ unavailable to other researchers. However, I have to point out that doing a PhD on the lived experiences of investors does not make me an expert on investment strategies.

Also in terms of the effect the credit crisis and NCCP and possible positive credit reporting will have on investors, well it ain't good !!!

Yes, the only thing that I can see putting a break on my goals is the current lending environment, which I will need to look more carefully into. However, if I buy well, and can justify my purchases to the banks using real numbers, hopefully I can mitigate this risk.

Good luck with the goals and don't let people questioning or knocking you put you off posting as it will be very interesting. Many of those will be offering genuine concern or guidance so don't take it personally.

Thanks again BT. I'll post when I can about my journey to 15 properties. Given the PhD is due in April 2011, it will make for some interesting times ahead!

Cheers,
Lisa :)
 
Wow, sounds like you will need and have a lot of energy!! :D You sound like a very determined person, good on you and good luck! :)

Ok no-one has said this yet. I'm gonna. Your goal of at least 15 ip's in two years sounds really unrealistic to me! I'm curious. How much do you earn pa? You may have it worked out in theory but in practice will it be so easy?

I reckon though you will do well in the next 2 years even if you dont make it to 15. Please keep us posted with your journey. I am sure it will be inspiring!!

Good luck hey :)
 
Thanks for your responses Lisa. :)

Your journey should make for interesting and informative processes. Please journal your succe$$es and the sour moments so that we can all learn from and support your road ahead.

What he said. Indeed, this is certainly nothing personal; merely trying to flesh out how/what you are thinking to either genuinely assist/guide or cause you to reflect and take any necessary detours when there are obstacles or too many forks in the road. ;) All the best.

Thanks Player :) I will be sure to document my successes, set backs and learnings as I go. While I may be opening myself up to criticism from some (please be gentle!), if it helps motivate others; generates discussion; or assists me or someone else along the way, it will be worth it.

Cheers,
Lisa
 
Thanks Player :) I will be sure to document my successes, set backs and learnings as I go. While I may be opening myself up to criticism from some (please be gentle!), if it helps motivate others; generates discussion; or assists me or someone else along the way, it will be worth it.

Cheers,
Lisa

Looking forward to it :) Yep we can all learn from each other! It'd be great if you could keep some kind of journal. Would be awesome.

Oh i forgot. I thought of something else to say. Do you have a buffer in place? Some savings?
 
Wow, sounds like you will need and have a lot of energy!! :D You sound like a very determined person, good on you and good luck! :)

Ok no-one has said this yet. I'm gonna. Your goal of at least 15 ip's in two years sounds really unrealistic to me! I'm curious. How much do you earn pa? You may have it worked out in theory but in practice will it be so easy?

I reckon though you will do well in the next 2 years even if you dont make it to 15. Please keep us posted with your journey. I am sure it will be inspiring!!

Good luck hey :)

Thanks Alex :) Yep, I'm a pretty determined person and will not give up until I've succeeded. If one path leads you know where, find another path.

Well, I'm lucky that I received a scholarship to do my PhD, however the scholarship income isn't flash. So for the last two years, I've been living off about $40K per year (tax free), which includes additional research assitant work, and a top up stipend from my uni.

Next year, when I finish my doctorate, I have decided that I am going to forego a job in the private industry, and enter the world of academia. Lecturers can earn anything between $60-120K, and if you ever reach the level of Professor, income climbs to $170K.

Things are never so easy in practice, but if you never try, you'll never achieve. :)
 
Looking forward to it :) Yep we can all learn from each other! It'd be great if you could keep some kind of journal. Would be awesome.

Oh i forgot. I thought of something else to say. Do you have a buffer in place? Some savings?

As I'm just starting, I've got all my savings sitting in my account, but as this is used towards buying property, I'll need to make sure I keep a buffer in place for any unexpected emergencies.
 
Yep, my LMI cost me $5K for this property, but I view LMI as an opportunity cost - that is, instead of it costing me $38K to purchase the property, it will only cost me 23K - a saving of $15K, which can be used towards a deposit on another property.

Not an issue, I agree LMI is a good tool

300 k resource / 3 8 = 8 Ips a bit short of the 15

Unless of course you are looking at doing a bunch of real cheapies ?

ta
rolf
 
Yes, the only thing that I can see putting a break on my goals is the current lending environment, which I will need to look more carefully into. However, if I buy well, and can justify my purchases to the banks using real numbers, hopefully I can mitigate this risk.

I can see u doing a bunch of very quick refinancing. Its not the lender you have to convince of your strategy. the first line of defence is the LMI provider, and even in good times it was tough to get them to accept val over contract.

With that much exposure in such a planned short time, the biggest challenge will be having your finance strategy in place, and working the properties toward it, and managing to contain your credit score.

Knowing what lender and lmi provider to use on what part of your journey is just as important as sourcing the right stock, for you can have a 100 great IPs, if you have cooked your CRAA file, you are STUCK.

With recent changes in the LMI world like ST George Bank and WLMI combining thus lowering overall exposures, they will make it harder for you.

After yor initial burst you will be mainly stuck with 80 % lends ( and less in some regionals depending on lender) so youd want to get every drop out of the 3 major insurers

ta
rolf
 
Not an issue, I agree LMI is a good tool

300 k resource / 3 8 = 8 Ips a bit short of the 15

Unless of course you are looking at doing a bunch of real cheapies ?

ta
rolf

Hi Rolf,

I don't quite understand that calculation. Why did you divide 300k by 3?

Cheers,
Lisa

ps. I think I called you Ralf in an earlier post - sorry!!! :p
 
My first challenge and what I have learnt...

My first challenge....

Well I heard back from my mortgage broker today, and apparently CBA won't lend to me as an owner-occupier at a 97% LVR because my current income is too low!!

I admit that my income is a little different from most, because my income consists of a three year tax free scholarship which is paid to me by the Australian government. However, the scholarship plus additional work that I do means I earn about $40K a year (approx $50K gross). For all your experienced mortgage brokers and investors out there, can you confirm that a single person, with no dependents, claiming no rent, no credit card debt, (although I do pay interest on a margin loan of about $230 a month), and claiming the FHOG - CAN NOT GET A LOAN FOR $245,000!!!

So, as a result I have had to accept CBA's investment loan, which means my LVR will be at 90% not 97%.

What have I learnt....

I have learnt that I am uncomfortable handing over control of the lending process to a third person when I do not know:

- How they are arriving at their decisions (what calculations are they using before approaching different banks)
- How much effort they have really put into getting me a loan at 97% versus going down the path of least resistance (how many lenders did they really approach)
- How best to set up my loan structures to ensure that it assits me on my investment journey, rather than hinders it.

So for my next loan, the solution is either:

- Learn what a mortgage broker knows so I am in a better position to me more informed next time;
- Avoid a mortgage broker and approach the lenders myself;
- Find a mortgage broker who understands my investment approach and will communicate how he/she arrives at his decisions and keep me in the loop, so I don't feel "left in the dark".

As I believe the finance aspect of investing is just as critical as the actual property buying process, the fact that I am not well versed on this side of things, makes me uncomfortable.

Any thoughts, comments, feedback welcome!!

Ps. my current mortgage broker is not a member of SS
 
Hi Lisa

Thats part of your journey

Do u have any credit facilities with CBA or maybe a savings account with St George Bank ?

ta
rolf

Hi Rolf,

lol...yep I think it is part of the journey - from ignorance to enlightenment. :)

I have all my banking with CBA (including a credit card), have a great savings history, and even worked as an employee for CBA in their Head Office for three years. Geez, what do you have to do to be considered a safe bet these days?

I don't have any accounts with any other banks.

Cheers
Lisa
 
Hey Lisa,

U need a good broker, just another part of the team u need to build around urself, u cant be an expert at all aspects involved in the journey so u need to hire the right people, BA, broker, PM, accountant, conveyancer etc

pointless and impossible to learn the ins and outs of the each aspect of the process.

sit down with a syd broker and work out a plan for the next 24 months, which lender for property b, which for property c, deposit from where, which mortgage insurer etc, what lVR for property d etc, as u said it is a vital part of the process, without access to the $$$ u can do nothing. You need to understand the plan but don't be involved in the sourcing of the $$$ part.

just curious did u do a pre-approval? if so when, strange u r running into these problems now, most of the issues should have been cleared upfront before u bought

this journey is going to be fun :D been a roller coaster for u already, excitement of purchase, then frustration, then anger and now the control freak side of personality is emerging! :)

enjoying this
 
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