There's some things that I just don't do and that includes stimulating the Indonesian economy.
Buying in Bali?
- Thread starter reeco
- Start date
seen a few people get burnt by local partner who is needed to be on title,
u pay for everything and buy the land build the houses etc.
then local partner goes actually i will take the lot thanks, please fight the Indonesian govt if you want to contest this.
bit like doing business in dubai where u might just find yourself in an awkward situation and are happy to walk away with your freedom in exchange for the your share of the project
u pay for everything and buy the land build the houses etc.
then local partner goes actually i will take the lot thanks, please fight the Indonesian govt if you want to contest this.
bit like doing business in dubai where u might just find yourself in an awkward situation and are happy to walk away with your freedom in exchange for the your share of the project
quoted for it's complete inaccuracy and out-of-datedness.
Indonesia has changed it's foreign ownership rules for real estate.
try googling before spewing forth regurgitated dogma.
horror stories only coming from consortiums using a "local" under the old system.
new system has an aussie name on indonesian equiv. of cert of title.
No, I wouldn't. I love Bali, and I'd love to retire there, but if I do I'll be renting. The risks and headaches of trying to own and build property aren't worth it. (I do not believe the laws have changed to allow foreigners to own property on a freehold basis, but happy to be proven wrong if someone can provide compelling evidence of this.)
Bali is a complex place. Obligations to the local village, corruption and organised crime can make life pretty tricky. Lombok may be different?
Supervising your build would be a very good idea. I dread being in an earth quake there: I'm sure very few buildings would survive it.
Balipod's expat forum is a good place to research investing there, but you probably already know that.
Bali is a complex place. Obligations to the local village, corruption and organised crime can make life pretty tricky. Lombok may be different?
Supervising your build would be a very good idea. I dread being in an earth quake there: I'm sure very few buildings would survive it.
Balipod's expat forum is a good place to research investing there, but you probably already know that.
Lombok ive been told is rather different socially. The local culture is more reserved and quieter by nature. Minus the gili islands of course.
Im pretty sure that new airport will change all that though..By size its near twice the size of that in Bali. The amount of traffic that this little island will see soon, will be quite dramatic economically.
I stayed in Kuta, in the south of Lombok for a week in 1997. (Have also traveled by boat and bus from Timor to Jakarkta over a 4 months period and spent some time on Gili Trawangan).
When I stayed in Kuta (Lombok) there was an abondoned hotel about 5 kms to the east of Kuta. Foreign interests (I think it was a Eurpean consortium) had built the hotel a few years before. I heard that the Indonesian tourism authority liked the hotel and had compulsorily acquired it.
I think you will find the same complexities buying and building on land in Lombok as you do in Bali. Lombok is very Muslim (not unlike Sumatra). I didn't see any evidence of Hindu religion as I'd seen in Bali or Christianity (as in parts of West Timor, and in Rote and nearby islands).
The Europeans have been staying in hotels in Sengigi for years (and I think a few of these would be European controlled)...so obviously the property system in Lombok must work for foreigners to a degree.
South coast of Lombok is very pretty. As is the coast around Sengigi. Surf is not that great in South Lombok (except Desert Point, Mawi and probably Ekas).
When I stayed in Kuta (Lombok) there was an abondoned hotel about 5 kms to the east of Kuta. Foreign interests (I think it was a Eurpean consortium) had built the hotel a few years before. I heard that the Indonesian tourism authority liked the hotel and had compulsorily acquired it.
I think you will find the same complexities buying and building on land in Lombok as you do in Bali. Lombok is very Muslim (not unlike Sumatra). I didn't see any evidence of Hindu religion as I'd seen in Bali or Christianity (as in parts of West Timor, and in Rote and nearby islands).
The Europeans have been staying in hotels in Sengigi for years (and I think a few of these would be European controlled)...so obviously the property system in Lombok must work for foreigners to a degree.
South coast of Lombok is very pretty. As is the coast around Sengigi. Surf is not that great in South Lombok (except Desert Point, Mawi and probably Ekas).
Indonesian Property - Some Facts
As someone who has lived in Indonesia for some eight years I am quite disappointed to see the misinformation and what seems to be little more than blind prejudice evoked by this topic (apart from a few more informed posters like Aaron Sice, Reeco, CSC2).
It's a shame because the reality is that for those prepared to do their homework and back their judgment there are great property opportunities emerging in Indonesia and other countries of South-east Asia such as Malaysia, Thailand and the Philippines.
These regions also happen to be very beautiful, warm, laid-back and inexpensive with very attractive lifestyle options, particularly for people approaching retirement.
First some background (and perhaps a de facto declaration of interest) -
I am a former licensed real estate agent in Western Australia and NSW (licences now inactive) but most of my Australian property experience involved putting together some modest developments (mainly Perth and Adelaide) and a role as development manager with a hotel company. I now head an investment company on the island of Batam involved in property development and (more recently) sales of the Western-standard apartments we are building as housing for a substantial and growing Western expatriate community based here.
Through this hands-on involvement I and some Western colleagues here (mainly Australian, US, Kiwi, UK) have developed practical expertise and an understanding of the property scene in this part of the world – land titles and tenure systems, conveyancing processes, foreign ownership, zoning and planning issues, building approvals, company formation, manpower and unions and the whole gamut of how to operate effectively within a VERY different legal and bureaucratic framework.
Now to some of the issues raised in this thread -
Secure and Clear Title
It’s quite true that no foreign individual or corporation can OWN property in Indonesia in freehold in the Western sense - all land under freehold title (Hak Milik) is restricted to Indonesian individuals or associations comprised wholly of Indonesian citizens.
However, much, if not MOST, land in Indonesia for which titles have issued is held in some form of leasehold and non Indonesians can readily obtain secure title to property provided they follow the appropriate procedures.
But why should the absence of access to freehold be such an issue – virtually all land in Canberra and the Australian Capital Territory is leasehold and a large proportion of the land in Singapore also is leasehold. Does anyone seriously suggest that this makes Singapore and Canberra property a no-go investment?
In fact there is a special form of limited leasehold title (Hak Pakai) in Indonesia exclusively for foreign buyers. However, the Hak Pakai form of title is widely regarded as inferior because the purchaser is limited to buying one property, the lease duration is shorter (only 25 years initially) and there are only limited rights to transfer, bequeath and mortgage the property.
Consequently most foreign buyers purchase property through a nominee arrangement or by establishing an Indonesian corporation which becomes the owner. These procedures allow non-Indonesians to hold property under the most common leasehold form of title (Hak Guna Bangunan or HGB) and confer the same rights to transfer, bequeath or mortgage their properties as are enjoyed by Indonesian owners.
HGB is a building rights title and is the form of title typically held by Indonesian Corporations. The nominal term may vary from province to province (typically from 50 to 80 years). In effect it is very much like the 99-year leasehold title in the Australian Capital Territory or the leasehold forms of title which apply in Singapore.
We strongly recommend foreign buyers use the incorporation method for the purchase of Indonesian properties as we consider it the most secure – you do NOT need to have any Indonesian partner.
We DO NOT recommend the nominee method as at the end of the day this takes you back to some extent to the old situation of some degree of dependence on the goodwill or ignorance of the Indonesian nominee. Notaries and agents handling these transactions say there are ways of ensuring their safety (irrevocable powers of attorney and mortgagee arrangements). But some critics argue these are artifices which are contrary to the spirit of the land laws and may not survive a determined legal challenge.
We have used an Indonesian foreign investment company (PMA) to acquire our portfolio. All of our properties are held as HGB and we enjoy full rights to mortgage, sell/transfer, lease, bequeath, develop etc.
The PMA form of incorporation came into being only a little more than 10 years ago and this category of company can be WHOLLY foreign owned, though it is required to offer to sell-down 5% to an Indonesian entity or individual within 15 years.
A PMA company must have two shareholders but both can be foreign individuals or entities (for example you and a company you already have at home). Foreign nationals may be appointed as company officers. Creating such a company can also offer advantages in obtaining long-term visas for anyone wishing to spend extended periods in Indonesia.
The base cost of establishing a PMA company is about SGD$4,500 but the consequences of not having real security of title do not bear thinking about.
Horror Stories
It's quite true that there are plenty of horror stories out there, usually involving people who were too lazy to do their homework, too impetuous, too trusting or too proud/arrogant to seek and listen to advice from experienced, competent people who have been there and done it.
This does not apply just to Indonesia - we have seen Westerners come (and go) after attempting to buy property in other Asian countries only to be royally screwed over.
A big issue is often a blithe assumption that if you know how the land system works in your home country you should be fine because it can't really be all that different elsewhere. WRONG - you are operating in a very different, legal, bureaucratic and cultural system. If you recognise this and take the trouble to listen and learn you can make it work for you. If you don't then you can expect to be SLAMMED.
Most amazing is the number of otherwise intelligent people who readily accept the bar and beach-talk myths without checking and who blindly trust local people (Indonesian girlfriends, Indonesian wives, selling agents, Chinese Indonesian developers, local lawyers or notaries) who recognise them as just another lazy or ignorant “Bule” looking to be parted from his money.
Sadly, there are even a few resident Expat urgers, especially in places like Bali, who either really don't know or who are prepared to trade a commission for their integrity.
The real irony is that for every disaster there are hundreds of other foreigners (whom we never hear about) who have done the research, sought and taken advice and have bought well. Typically they are very happy with the outcomes, usually enjoying much more for much less than they could ever contemplate in Australia or any other developed Western country.
Most Western purchasers do so for lifestyle, relationships (Indonesian spouses or partners), retirement, or for reasons associated with their work or business needs and interests – even in Bali, other than for a few developers, investment appears not to have been a priority.
(It's a little different in Batam - one of Indonesia's most rapidly growing economic regions - where we are targeting a rental market for well-paid expatriate professionals employed in the island's heavy industrial and manufacturing estates.)
The many Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, Brits, Norwegians, Germans and others who now own property around Indonesia are doing what the Dutch (the original colonizers) have been doing for years. And they are discovering what the Dutch already knew – despite many petty frustrations Indonesia can be a welcoming, fascinating and very inexpensive place to live.
Building and Development Standards
It is certainly true that building codes and regulations and the apparatus for their enforcement is very inferior in this part of the world compared with the standards applying in places like Australia.
This is not to say that there are no well-built and well-finished buildings in Indonesia’s towns and cities because there are. Some are in fact imaginatively designed and superbly built.
But there is much that is sub-standard and very inferior by Western standards. It’s not that it may fall down – generally most buildings are over-engineered.
But with some exceptions in Java there is no real tradition of properly trained and skilled tradesmen and the results show with rapid deterioration of finishes and potentially high maintenance costs. Plumbing and electrical intallations can be problematic (we plan for complete rewiring and new plumbing as a given in every renovation). Electricity feeds typically are inadequate and despite the generally warm climate concepts like insulation and solar hot water systems have made little headway.
This means that unless you have the time and the expertise to closely supervise any building or renovation work you are undertaking then you had better find someone – preferably an experienced or qualified Westerner – to do it for you.
It means also that if you are buying an existing property then you probably need to arrange for someone with some expertise to check it out for you so that you can anticipate and allow for the cost of any potential problems and essential upgrading to achieve suitable standards.
There is also an issue of different expectations – two of the most important considerations in an Australian house or apartment are likely to be the kitchens and bathrooms. A brand new Indonesian home often comes without a kitchen at all (in our sense of the term) and bathrooms may be very basic indeed. The first step for many buyers of new residential properties is a “renovation” to add kitchen and bathroom fittings, cupboards, benches and built-ins.
Bits and Pieces that May Help
1. If you decide to buy property in Indonesia then you will need to pay cash – as a Westerner (even incorporated) you almost certainly will not be able to raise bank or other mortgage finance here. To benefit from gearing you would need to raise borrowings against property at home and bring the cash.
2. We recommend caution if you are considering buying land with the intention of later building. I am not familiar with the scene in Bali though I know some Westerners have successfully undertaken developments there. But our experience elsewhere is that a “greenfields “ project is likely to be very tough – there are just so many areas requiring permits and approvals where corrupt local bureaucrats can hold you up and squeeze you for (sometimes substantial) pay-offs. If you do decide to go this way then try to make sure any planning and building approvals are in place before you buy. Otherwise buy an existing property which you can upgrade or renovate without the need to consult or involve local authorities.
3. It is probably a complete waste of time to consider buying any newly released Government land – should you do so you can expect to pay backhanders on the way in and then again at every stop along the way. There is also a fair chance you will be gazumped at the critical moment by someone else who has mysteriously been provided with complete and full access to all of your planning proposals.
4. Always remember in any dealings that Indonesian people tend not to speak directly and can in fact consider a typically direct Westerner quite confronting. They also will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid delivering “bad news” or causing disappointment. The agreements, affirmations and smiles that you are receiving may well be a mirage and the deal you thought you just made may in fact have just gone down the spout. (Ideally you need the help of someone who speaks the language and knows the culture.)
5. Always remember that a contract in Indonesia is often merely the beginning of a negotiation. There are no Builders Licensing systems, there are no indemnity funds, there are no Ombudsmen or Builders or Estate Agents Registration Boards and your chances of enforcing a civil claim through the courts are minimal.
The Good News
The good news is that despite all of the grim stories and warnings outlined above, for those who are prepared to make the commitment, do the work and stay the distance there are some great opportunities, particularly in niche markets catering to Western visitors, retirees, business people and professionals working in the region.
While It is NOT for the strongly risk averse or for those who are not prepared to do their homework, Asia is very much a coming region and serious property investors looking for good returns and strong capital growth should be looking at its potential.
For example (without wanting to abuse the privilege of posting to this forum) it is worth noting in this context that we are able to offer our purchasers 10-year lease-back arrangements at 11% of the purchase price with annual inflation adjustments and a minimum buy-back provision and STILL be confident we can make money as operators.
As a newcomer to the Board trawling through the massive numbers of interesting and informative posts I was surprised to see so little interest in Asian opportunities.
Curiously there is quite a lot of information and debate about the merits of off-shore property investments in the USA where the economic charge backwards would still seem to have some distance to run.
But only meagre information about the Asian region where most economies continue to power ahead, confidence abounds and living standards and aspirations just keep on climbing. In fact it is largely because of its Asian trade relationships, that Australia has been such a notable exception among the developed Western economies during the economic downturn.
A couple of numbers – Indonesia registered economic growth of 4.6% during the depths of the GEC in 2009 and the number is currently running at 5.6% for this year.
It is a member of the G20 International Economic Forum with the largest economy in South-East Asia, the 19th largest economy in the world and average per capita income greater than that of China.
A long way to go but since the end of the New Order Suharto regime in 1999 Indonesia has been making sufficient progress for many economic authorities to be suggesting there should be another “I” added to the so-called BRIC group of emerging economies (Brazil, Russia, India China).
I trust all this does not come over as a sermon and that it is not too long and boring – my hope is that it will be useful for anyone who is serious about taking a look a little wider afield and is not afraid of taking a step into the relatively new and unknown. Those who are sufficiently bold, ready to learn and prepared to persist they may find a serious look at South East Asia to be well worthwhile.
(By the way, I am unaware of any changes to the ownership laws in January Travelbug but if you have something on that then I would b very interested - there has been speculation in the media throughout the year about several ideas to make foreign ownership easier but so far as I know nothing has come of it).
As someone who has lived in Indonesia for some eight years I am quite disappointed to see the misinformation and what seems to be little more than blind prejudice evoked by this topic (apart from a few more informed posters like Aaron Sice, Reeco, CSC2).
It's a shame because the reality is that for those prepared to do their homework and back their judgment there are great property opportunities emerging in Indonesia and other countries of South-east Asia such as Malaysia, Thailand and the Philippines.
These regions also happen to be very beautiful, warm, laid-back and inexpensive with very attractive lifestyle options, particularly for people approaching retirement.
First some background (and perhaps a de facto declaration of interest) -
I am a former licensed real estate agent in Western Australia and NSW (licences now inactive) but most of my Australian property experience involved putting together some modest developments (mainly Perth and Adelaide) and a role as development manager with a hotel company. I now head an investment company on the island of Batam involved in property development and (more recently) sales of the Western-standard apartments we are building as housing for a substantial and growing Western expatriate community based here.
Through this hands-on involvement I and some Western colleagues here (mainly Australian, US, Kiwi, UK) have developed practical expertise and an understanding of the property scene in this part of the world – land titles and tenure systems, conveyancing processes, foreign ownership, zoning and planning issues, building approvals, company formation, manpower and unions and the whole gamut of how to operate effectively within a VERY different legal and bureaucratic framework.
Now to some of the issues raised in this thread -
Secure and Clear Title
It’s quite true that no foreign individual or corporation can OWN property in Indonesia in freehold in the Western sense - all land under freehold title (Hak Milik) is restricted to Indonesian individuals or associations comprised wholly of Indonesian citizens.
However, much, if not MOST, land in Indonesia for which titles have issued is held in some form of leasehold and non Indonesians can readily obtain secure title to property provided they follow the appropriate procedures.
But why should the absence of access to freehold be such an issue – virtually all land in Canberra and the Australian Capital Territory is leasehold and a large proportion of the land in Singapore also is leasehold. Does anyone seriously suggest that this makes Singapore and Canberra property a no-go investment?
In fact there is a special form of limited leasehold title (Hak Pakai) in Indonesia exclusively for foreign buyers. However, the Hak Pakai form of title is widely regarded as inferior because the purchaser is limited to buying one property, the lease duration is shorter (only 25 years initially) and there are only limited rights to transfer, bequeath and mortgage the property.
Consequently most foreign buyers purchase property through a nominee arrangement or by establishing an Indonesian corporation which becomes the owner. These procedures allow non-Indonesians to hold property under the most common leasehold form of title (Hak Guna Bangunan or HGB) and confer the same rights to transfer, bequeath or mortgage their properties as are enjoyed by Indonesian owners.
HGB is a building rights title and is the form of title typically held by Indonesian Corporations. The nominal term may vary from province to province (typically from 50 to 80 years). In effect it is very much like the 99-year leasehold title in the Australian Capital Territory or the leasehold forms of title which apply in Singapore.
We strongly recommend foreign buyers use the incorporation method for the purchase of Indonesian properties as we consider it the most secure – you do NOT need to have any Indonesian partner.
We DO NOT recommend the nominee method as at the end of the day this takes you back to some extent to the old situation of some degree of dependence on the goodwill or ignorance of the Indonesian nominee. Notaries and agents handling these transactions say there are ways of ensuring their safety (irrevocable powers of attorney and mortgagee arrangements). But some critics argue these are artifices which are contrary to the spirit of the land laws and may not survive a determined legal challenge.
We have used an Indonesian foreign investment company (PMA) to acquire our portfolio. All of our properties are held as HGB and we enjoy full rights to mortgage, sell/transfer, lease, bequeath, develop etc.
The PMA form of incorporation came into being only a little more than 10 years ago and this category of company can be WHOLLY foreign owned, though it is required to offer to sell-down 5% to an Indonesian entity or individual within 15 years.
A PMA company must have two shareholders but both can be foreign individuals or entities (for example you and a company you already have at home). Foreign nationals may be appointed as company officers. Creating such a company can also offer advantages in obtaining long-term visas for anyone wishing to spend extended periods in Indonesia.
The base cost of establishing a PMA company is about SGD$4,500 but the consequences of not having real security of title do not bear thinking about.
Horror Stories
It's quite true that there are plenty of horror stories out there, usually involving people who were too lazy to do their homework, too impetuous, too trusting or too proud/arrogant to seek and listen to advice from experienced, competent people who have been there and done it.
This does not apply just to Indonesia - we have seen Westerners come (and go) after attempting to buy property in other Asian countries only to be royally screwed over.
A big issue is often a blithe assumption that if you know how the land system works in your home country you should be fine because it can't really be all that different elsewhere. WRONG - you are operating in a very different, legal, bureaucratic and cultural system. If you recognise this and take the trouble to listen and learn you can make it work for you. If you don't then you can expect to be SLAMMED.
Most amazing is the number of otherwise intelligent people who readily accept the bar and beach-talk myths without checking and who blindly trust local people (Indonesian girlfriends, Indonesian wives, selling agents, Chinese Indonesian developers, local lawyers or notaries) who recognise them as just another lazy or ignorant “Bule” looking to be parted from his money.
Sadly, there are even a few resident Expat urgers, especially in places like Bali, who either really don't know or who are prepared to trade a commission for their integrity.
The real irony is that for every disaster there are hundreds of other foreigners (whom we never hear about) who have done the research, sought and taken advice and have bought well. Typically they are very happy with the outcomes, usually enjoying much more for much less than they could ever contemplate in Australia or any other developed Western country.
Most Western purchasers do so for lifestyle, relationships (Indonesian spouses or partners), retirement, or for reasons associated with their work or business needs and interests – even in Bali, other than for a few developers, investment appears not to have been a priority.
(It's a little different in Batam - one of Indonesia's most rapidly growing economic regions - where we are targeting a rental market for well-paid expatriate professionals employed in the island's heavy industrial and manufacturing estates.)
The many Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, Brits, Norwegians, Germans and others who now own property around Indonesia are doing what the Dutch (the original colonizers) have been doing for years. And they are discovering what the Dutch already knew – despite many petty frustrations Indonesia can be a welcoming, fascinating and very inexpensive place to live.
Building and Development Standards
It is certainly true that building codes and regulations and the apparatus for their enforcement is very inferior in this part of the world compared with the standards applying in places like Australia.
This is not to say that there are no well-built and well-finished buildings in Indonesia’s towns and cities because there are. Some are in fact imaginatively designed and superbly built.
But there is much that is sub-standard and very inferior by Western standards. It’s not that it may fall down – generally most buildings are over-engineered.
But with some exceptions in Java there is no real tradition of properly trained and skilled tradesmen and the results show with rapid deterioration of finishes and potentially high maintenance costs. Plumbing and electrical intallations can be problematic (we plan for complete rewiring and new plumbing as a given in every renovation). Electricity feeds typically are inadequate and despite the generally warm climate concepts like insulation and solar hot water systems have made little headway.
This means that unless you have the time and the expertise to closely supervise any building or renovation work you are undertaking then you had better find someone – preferably an experienced or qualified Westerner – to do it for you.
It means also that if you are buying an existing property then you probably need to arrange for someone with some expertise to check it out for you so that you can anticipate and allow for the cost of any potential problems and essential upgrading to achieve suitable standards.
There is also an issue of different expectations – two of the most important considerations in an Australian house or apartment are likely to be the kitchens and bathrooms. A brand new Indonesian home often comes without a kitchen at all (in our sense of the term) and bathrooms may be very basic indeed. The first step for many buyers of new residential properties is a “renovation” to add kitchen and bathroom fittings, cupboards, benches and built-ins.
Bits and Pieces that May Help
1. If you decide to buy property in Indonesia then you will need to pay cash – as a Westerner (even incorporated) you almost certainly will not be able to raise bank or other mortgage finance here. To benefit from gearing you would need to raise borrowings against property at home and bring the cash.
2. We recommend caution if you are considering buying land with the intention of later building. I am not familiar with the scene in Bali though I know some Westerners have successfully undertaken developments there. But our experience elsewhere is that a “greenfields “ project is likely to be very tough – there are just so many areas requiring permits and approvals where corrupt local bureaucrats can hold you up and squeeze you for (sometimes substantial) pay-offs. If you do decide to go this way then try to make sure any planning and building approvals are in place before you buy. Otherwise buy an existing property which you can upgrade or renovate without the need to consult or involve local authorities.
3. It is probably a complete waste of time to consider buying any newly released Government land – should you do so you can expect to pay backhanders on the way in and then again at every stop along the way. There is also a fair chance you will be gazumped at the critical moment by someone else who has mysteriously been provided with complete and full access to all of your planning proposals.
4. Always remember in any dealings that Indonesian people tend not to speak directly and can in fact consider a typically direct Westerner quite confronting. They also will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid delivering “bad news” or causing disappointment. The agreements, affirmations and smiles that you are receiving may well be a mirage and the deal you thought you just made may in fact have just gone down the spout. (Ideally you need the help of someone who speaks the language and knows the culture.)
5. Always remember that a contract in Indonesia is often merely the beginning of a negotiation. There are no Builders Licensing systems, there are no indemnity funds, there are no Ombudsmen or Builders or Estate Agents Registration Boards and your chances of enforcing a civil claim through the courts are minimal.
The Good News
The good news is that despite all of the grim stories and warnings outlined above, for those who are prepared to make the commitment, do the work and stay the distance there are some great opportunities, particularly in niche markets catering to Western visitors, retirees, business people and professionals working in the region.
While It is NOT for the strongly risk averse or for those who are not prepared to do their homework, Asia is very much a coming region and serious property investors looking for good returns and strong capital growth should be looking at its potential.
For example (without wanting to abuse the privilege of posting to this forum) it is worth noting in this context that we are able to offer our purchasers 10-year lease-back arrangements at 11% of the purchase price with annual inflation adjustments and a minimum buy-back provision and STILL be confident we can make money as operators.
As a newcomer to the Board trawling through the massive numbers of interesting and informative posts I was surprised to see so little interest in Asian opportunities.
Curiously there is quite a lot of information and debate about the merits of off-shore property investments in the USA where the economic charge backwards would still seem to have some distance to run.
But only meagre information about the Asian region where most economies continue to power ahead, confidence abounds and living standards and aspirations just keep on climbing. In fact it is largely because of its Asian trade relationships, that Australia has been such a notable exception among the developed Western economies during the economic downturn.
A couple of numbers – Indonesia registered economic growth of 4.6% during the depths of the GEC in 2009 and the number is currently running at 5.6% for this year.
It is a member of the G20 International Economic Forum with the largest economy in South-East Asia, the 19th largest economy in the world and average per capita income greater than that of China.
A long way to go but since the end of the New Order Suharto regime in 1999 Indonesia has been making sufficient progress for many economic authorities to be suggesting there should be another “I” added to the so-called BRIC group of emerging economies (Brazil, Russia, India China).
I trust all this does not come over as a sermon and that it is not too long and boring – my hope is that it will be useful for anyone who is serious about taking a look a little wider afield and is not afraid of taking a step into the relatively new and unknown. Those who are sufficiently bold, ready to learn and prepared to persist they may find a serious look at South East Asia to be well worthwhile.
(By the way, I am unaware of any changes to the ownership laws in January Travelbug but if you have something on that then I would b very interested - there has been speculation in the media throughout the year about several ideas to make foreign ownership easier but so far as I know nothing has come of it).
Good post Batam Guru - lots of info to digest there.
The lack of Asian property threads is probably due to the lack of information and relative difficulty in obtaining said information (and the reliability of information that you can obtain).
The lack of Asian property threads is probably due to the lack of information and relative difficulty in obtaining said information (and the reliability of information that you can obtain).
January Changes Indonesian Property Rules
Please do not be offended Travel Bug - I am genuinely interested in any information you might have re rules changes earlier this year. The information could be important to us.
Though I speak adequate Indonesian I am not yet good enough to closely follow the Indonesian language newspapers or other non English-language media and can sometimes miss reports of law changes that are minor as far as the local population is concerned.
As mentioned I have seen media speculation as to the possibility of changes but no more than that - perhaps this was what also came to your notice?
I hope you will see from the tenor of my earlier post that I am delighted that you and some of the other posters appear to be taking a real interest in the Asian and Indonesian scene.
Please do not be offended Travel Bug - I am genuinely interested in any information you might have re rules changes earlier this year. The information could be important to us.
Though I speak adequate Indonesian I am not yet good enough to closely follow the Indonesian language newspapers or other non English-language media and can sometimes miss reports of law changes that are minor as far as the local population is concerned.
As mentioned I have seen media speculation as to the possibility of changes but no more than that - perhaps this was what also came to your notice?
I hope you will see from the tenor of my earlier post that I am delighted that you and some of the other posters appear to be taking a real interest in the Asian and Indonesian scene.
Sorry. I was actually referring to this-
I did mention the new system. Perhaps it needed saying twice?
Have have many friends i Bali that own property. I know through friends how it has changed as it is affecting them.
I too speak bahasa Indonesia (hanya sedikit karena saya malas dan tidak belajar). I guessed you did by your name. Saya guru juga. My call name on a bali travel forum is sayaguru.
Original I know.
The laws are difficult even for native speakers. Even with an interpreter it is difficult to negotiate (unless you have lots of money).
God I miss Bali. Missed my fix this month due to renovations. Bring on January.
I did mention the new system. Perhaps it needed saying twice?
Have have many friends i Bali that own property. I know through friends how it has changed as it is affecting them.
I too speak bahasa Indonesia (hanya sedikit karena saya malas dan tidak belajar). I guessed you did by your name. Saya guru juga. My call name on a bali travel forum is sayaguru.
Original I know.The laws are difficult even for native speakers. Even with an interpreter it is difficult to negotiate (unless you have lots of money).
God I miss Bali. Missed my fix this month due to renovations. Bring on January.
Indon Certificates of Title
Got it Travelbug. Now see what you were driving at.
Aaron Sice post is quite right. Your name goes on a Certificate of Title under the Hak Pakai form of tenure. If buying through an incorporated entity under the HGB (Hak Guna Bangunan) form of tenure then your company's name goes on the title.
However, if buying under the nominee system referred to in my earlier post then the nominee's name goes on the title and that's why we advise against this method of purchasing.
Guess I should have begun with Salamat Sore (Good afternoon). Good on you for taking on the language - it adds a whole new dimension to your understanding of the people, the culture and the country.
I am not at all familiar with Bali. When I lived in Perth it seemed to me that I was one of the very few who had not been there. Still to explore it. My travels around Indonesia so far have been mainly to regions in Sumatra and Java (all fascinating).
However, I understand your withdrawal symptoms. I suffer the same way when I make the occasional trip back to Oz.
Where we live is very different to what I understand Bali to be - we are mainly a manufacturing and heavy fabrication hub. But we are surrounded by literally hundreds attractive and interesting islands, with many traditional Malayu and Bugis villages built over the waterways and wonderful Kalong seafood restaurants with very inexpensive and delicious Indonesian fresh seafood dishes.
There is also a scattering of (quite substantial) resorts and excellent championship standard golf courses targetting the Singapore market (where golf costs a fortune) plus local expat residents and visitors and Korean and Japanese tourists.
Would be delighted to show you around if you ever want to take a side-trip during a Bali visit - as you would be aware domestic air fares in Indonesia are murah sekali (very cheap).
Got it Travelbug. Now see what you were driving at.
Aaron Sice post is quite right. Your name goes on a Certificate of Title under the Hak Pakai form of tenure. If buying through an incorporated entity under the HGB (Hak Guna Bangunan) form of tenure then your company's name goes on the title.
However, if buying under the nominee system referred to in my earlier post then the nominee's name goes on the title and that's why we advise against this method of purchasing.
Guess I should have begun with Salamat Sore (Good afternoon). Good on you for taking on the language - it adds a whole new dimension to your understanding of the people, the culture and the country.
I am not at all familiar with Bali. When I lived in Perth it seemed to me that I was one of the very few who had not been there. Still to explore it. My travels around Indonesia so far have been mainly to regions in Sumatra and Java (all fascinating).
However, I understand your withdrawal symptoms. I suffer the same way when I make the occasional trip back to Oz.
Where we live is very different to what I understand Bali to be - we are mainly a manufacturing and heavy fabrication hub. But we are surrounded by literally hundreds attractive and interesting islands, with many traditional Malayu and Bugis villages built over the waterways and wonderful Kalong seafood restaurants with very inexpensive and delicious Indonesian fresh seafood dishes.
There is also a scattering of (quite substantial) resorts and excellent championship standard golf courses targetting the Singapore market (where golf costs a fortune) plus local expat residents and visitors and Korean and Japanese tourists.
Would be delighted to show you around if you ever want to take a side-trip during a Bali visit - as you would be aware domestic air fares in Indonesia are murah sekali (very cheap).
Update
Reeco where did this go mate? Did you go ahead with it? get more info and bail? fall asleep and forget?
Reeco where did this go mate? Did you go ahead with it? get more info and bail? fall asleep and forget?
Flying there in feb inspecting then fingers crossed... buying half an acre for 20k with 4k as a deposit and balloon payment in 6months. South west section of lombok. From what I've researched so far...many ups. A couple downs of course but I'm sure it's manageable...Ill know for sure when
I land. Will keep things posted. ..I'll try throw up some pics aswell
inspecting then fingers crossed... buying half an acre for 20k with 4k as a deposit and balloon payment in 6months. South west section of lombok. From what I've researched so far...many ups. A couple downs of course but I'm sure it's manageable...Ill know for sure whenI land. Will keep things posted. ..I'll try throw up some pics aswell
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