can you teach financial literacy?

The federal govt are putting some tax dollars into a programme to teach people of all ages "financial literacy".

RDPD afficiando's are probably nodding their heads and saying "and about time too" and "I told you so"...

But my question is - can you TEACH anything beyond a rudimentary understanding of personal financial affairs? Can you TEACH someone to be a successful investor?

What is it that makes a successful investor? Certainly a degree of technical skill (whether people recognise it or not) in analysing a deal. A fair dose of motivation? A hint of luck...stir in a bucket of experience and simmer over the flame of adversity???

prob best not to post after long boozy client lunches... :p but I wonder if our tax dollars are being best spent in this way...
 
There are definitely much worse things we could be teaching people....

Though whether the government is qualified to teach financial literacy is a debatable point.

BTW - got a link for it Nigel?

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Yes Acey, financial literacy can be taught. I've even learnt a few things of this forum.

The only problem is, it's not something most people actually want to learn.
 
Heard the term 'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink?' Anyone can sit down with one or more people and talk financial literacy until they are blue in the face, but if the participants don't want to know about it, you're going to have their attention for about 5 seconds, if at all.
 
I think its a great idea, and that many people, especially the young, would benefit from it.
After all, not everyone manages money well or indeed knows how to go about managing it. Budget is a dirty word for most of the population, the word investment conjurs up yawns and boredom, and mere mention of the phrase "planning for retirement" sends people scurrying onto a more interesting conversation.

Let's face it. The govt isn't dumb. They know the welfare coffers won't be able to afford old age pensions forever, so they're finding ways to make upcoming generations smarter about money. Perhaps they could also put "lowering useless, outdated, revenue-raising taxes" on the agenda as well, to give people more of a financial headstart. :p
 
With so many things being added to the school curriculum, it's probably time to draw the line somewhere, or chuck out some of the old to make way for the new.

In these discussions one muses about the purpose of school education (to form a person, to teach independence or to equip for a job) and the values that it should transmit. Indeed whether it should transmit values at all (though I think almost everyone's given up on value neutrality, as there's always a 'hidden curriculum').

Then there's the extent to which we regard education as the fixer of all social ails, or at least provide therapy to the individual, perhaps to ameliorate the worst effects of bad parenting. Or, at its most ambitious (and sinister), to bring about a new society.

Many of us would be favourably disposed towards the idea. But there have been numerous education movements before us. For instance environmental education, health education, peace education, teaching thinking (a la Edward de Bono), computer education, education for leisure (ie almost accepting that youth unemployment is intractable and hey, you gotta make the best of it) and much more.

Every pressure group in the country wants to get their stuff on the school curriculum to bolser their 'lifestyle choice'. Investment people included, no doubt. Just think of the scope for co-produced books and marketing opportunites that the big managed funds, real estate institutes and broking houses would jump at!

And, oh yes, in all this education it would help if the kids could read, write and add up as well!

My view is that those who propose teacher-time for their pet topic simultaneously propose cuts in other areas to make the proposal time-netural. But assuming we can do this, and financial education does get in, what should it include (assuming overlap with current topics)?

* Consumer education - deconstructing advertising, proving and disproving advertised claims, researching products you buy, secondhand shopping (benefits and hazards), making a complaint, alternatives to buying, environmental consequences of consumerism, shopping around, do you really need it and the concept of opportunity cost.

(a typical project could be to compare prepaid mobile phone plans and write on the strengths and weaknesses of each one!!!)

* Consumer finance - paying for things, cash versus credit, credit cards versus personal loans, interest free deals, concept of borrowing for depreciating items, alternatives to credit (ie not buy, buying secondhand, saving up).

* financial basics - budgeting, saving, value of saving over time, importance of habit, concept of compound interest, risk and reward relationship. Values: prudent spending, saving and self-discipline

* advanced finances - investing, different asset classes, tax and super, hazards and benefits of borrowing to invest, more risk and rewards, setting up a financial plan and linkage to life objectives, concept of financial independence. Giving and responsibilities of rich to society.

* the world of work - mostly identifying strengths, CVs and looking for jobs, but also setting up a business and self-employment as lifestyle choices.

This could be simplifed or made more advanced depending on the age. But the basic concepts are very simple and should only be a few lessons.

Regards, Peter
 
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Hi all,

With regard to the concept of can you teach financial literacy, rather than should you teach financial literacy, I believe the answer is yes, from an experiment conducted in the US 20 years ago.

This "experiment" was really a bet between 2 traders(one of them, Richard Dennis had turned a few hundred dollars into over $200 million). The $1 bet was that he could teach people to trade successfully. This was no idle bet, as it is often stated that over 90% of all traders lose money in the longer term(all these funds end up in the hands of the other 10%).

He took a number of people from various walks of life, and levels of market experience, and taught them how to trade sucessfully like himself. He then gave them accounts to trade with. Many of these people proceeded to make above average returns, and some of them today manage large successful funds.
There were of course failures, some couldn't handle the presure, but mostly from those who couldn't follow the winning system. There was a tendancy for the more highly educated to be the failures. These were the people who thought they new better than the winning system.

Of course these were the "Turtles", and everyone can read all about them in Jack Schwagers book Market Wizards.

My opinion from the above is that financial literacy(whatever that means to you) can be taught, but the student must be willing to learn and follow the rules to be successful.

bye
 
NigelW said:
But my question is - can you TEACH anything beyond a rudimentary understanding of personal financial affairs? Can you TEACH someone to be a successful investor?

Great thread !

One of the first questions we need to answer is: what exactly is "financial literacy" ?

Personally I don't count the concept of "literacy" in with success. So being finanically literate, does not necessarily make one successful with money - but I do expect it to make one competent.

I think there are two stages - the first is an understanding of the true nature of money and a fundamental grasp of how money works and more practically, how to live within your means to remain financially viable, how to manage debt and the true cost of credit.

The second stage is then building on that fundamental understanding and involves the concept of wealth building.

I really don't think we need to be focussing on the second stage of education in wealth building - this is a very personal issue and something that you must be motivated about to actually achieve and to actually go out there are find the information on your own.

The first stage is critical I believe and some carefully chosen fundamental education should be provided to secondary school student in some form - and many of their parents could probably do with similar education. It needn't take much time - in fact some well chosen texts could be made compulsory reading - or perhaps seminars or other supplementary structures - minimalistic rather than trying to take too much away from the existing curriculum.

The real challenge is that there are many different approaches people take with these things - and prescribing rules and recommendations may not be in everyones best interest (kind of like the "super is best" argument that is sold to us ... not saying it's not good, just saying it's not necessarily "best"). I'm not sure I'd trust the government to necessarily provide the right direction in these matters - indeed it may be another one of those topics which I myself will prefer to teach at home using my own values, standards and experience with such matters.
 
I agree with you guys (great english i know :D ) that the fundamentals should be taught in schools.....beyond that I believe kids should be given a general understanding of the different options out there so they know where to start looking should they want to research it further.

This would be a great concept to start in year 9 because this is when many kids get their first jobs.....i know if I had some understanding back then I'd be further ahead than where I am now....

my 2 cents worth

Ecogirl
;)
 
Excellent Thread.

Firstly, I nominate Spiderman and Sim to develop the cirriculum.

As Sim correctly points out, we're talking Financial Literacy, not Wealth Building.

I find it scarey how many people today see $0 mobiles, 12 months interest free furniture, low start home loans and many other schemes who end up as TT/ACA fodder later on.


(a typical project could be to compare prepaid mobile phone plans and write on the strengths and weaknesses of each one!!!)

What an excellent idea. Something most kids would actually need to know, and have an interest in. Maybe even figure out the cost difference between 5 SMS's vs a 90 second phone call.......

At least then, they'l have the basics in hand.

As Mark says' (BTW - long time no hear!) you can lead a horse to water, but cant make it drink. I think you can even add to that shoving it's face in the water and it still may not drink. BUT - it's mouth still got wet didn't it? It may not get the whole message, but isn't some better than none ?

I see my role as a parent to teach my kids, but then the vast majority of parents aren't equipped to do this - they don't know themselves. I'm sure I don't know everything either - but I do know more than most (as would most forumites purely by reading posts here). I even try subtly to influence my family - with varied success. :confused:

Cheerio

Simon.
 
For us, its only little things to start (as my kids are 9,7 and 3).
Teaching them the value of money, and how expensive (or cheap) fruit prices or grocery prices are etc
Another thing we do is play "Cashflow for Kids" - which the older girls love to play - they are really starting to understand doodads!! eg the expenses that are put on credit card which leave less money in your pocket at the end of the day.
The kids also hear our conversations each day about money/finance/IP's, and enjoy visiting our local IP when it is not renting!!
Kiyosaki says that kids who grow up listening to these types of conversations end up taking it all in as second nature, and I would agree. Once they reach an age (say 18) they are more likely to invest as you do - esp if you tell them you will give them as much advice as they want.
I think you need kids to learn from a very early age.
 
perky29 said:
I think you need kids to learn from a very early age.

I agree with you Perky, best to teach kids the values before they get too old & unteachable, like many adults :)

And it MUST be possible to teach financial literacy - because people have learnt it :)

However, I have my concerns over who they will have teach it.

Do any of the parents out there feel that their kids' teachers are qualified to teach financial literacy? Most of the teachers I've met through my kids' schools are wonderful educators, but not particularly good at their own financial management.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Aceyducey said:
I agree with you Perky, best to teach kids the values before they get too old & unteachable, like many adults :)

And it MUST be possible to teach financial literacy - because people have learnt it :)

However, I have my concerns over who they will have teach it.

Do any of the parents out there feel that their kids' teachers are qualified to teach financial literacy? Most of the teachers I've met through my kids' schools are wonderful educators, but not particularly good at their own financial management.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
My 14yo knows that the teachers aren't qualified to teach financial literacy.

In commerce at school she was learning about investment and when I looked at her homework I was surprised by a statement that she had written that said, in a nutshell, that shares were the only way that you invest. When I questioned why she had said that, her reply was that that was what she had been taught, so that was going to be her answer even though she knows that not to be the case, because she wants to get good marks.

She said I'm not going to bother learning commerce anymore at school (meaning in an elective next year) because in her view the teachers don't know what they are talking about.

My husband is at Uni at the moment doing an MBA and one of the subjects that he had to study was about investments and on his first class they talked about the risks of different investments and property comes in as the riskiest with collectables.

As far as I'm concerned, let them (the educators) teach the masses that propery is a bad investment, it leaves more renters out there to rent our houses.
 
I remember back in year 8, the extent of our commerce studies was limited to being taught how to write a cheque, how to use eftpos, and how to waste money "wisely". Then, I thought it was funny. Now I think its disgraceful that they teach children how to spend money, instead of to save and/or invest it.

J.
 
Great thread so far ...

I believe financial literacy and 'becoming an investor' is a way of thinking - not just a set of 'tools' you can use.

Universities are supposed to change the way a person thinks ie ... 'Think like a lawyer', 'think like an engineer' , 'think like an accountant'. Along the way, students are exposed to tools that help them solve problems in their profession.

To train a person to think like an investor, an exposure to investng over a number of years (via lectures, tutorials and professional experience) coupled with introductions to 'evaluating deals', 'choosing accountants, solicitors', 'selecting loans', 'cgt 101', 'income tax 101', "trust structures', 'company structures' may produce graduates who 'think like investors'.

Reading this form has ceratinly changed the way I think
 
Good Idea

Hi All

This is a great idea!!! Whether the kids take to it doesn't matter. This will at least benefit the poor and working class kids who want it. I should know, I grew up serious working class.

From Year 7 I did part time work until HSC sometimes two jobs but that didn’t teach me financial literacy. It taught me to work hard.

My parents never and still don't understand money; I now manage everything for Mum. Because we were poor when I asked questions I got curt and mean answers. As I adult I now realize that the answers were so because my parents were embarrassed in their lot and ignorance. By 12 I knew more about money than my dad and use to argue with him. By 15 I worked out he was illiterate and felt sorry for him. It was not until I meet my future wife's parents at age 16 that I had someone to even talk money with.

If we want to have less welfare we have to give the kids at least the opportunity to learn how to get out of out. Intelligence will not do. My mum cried when I got into RMIT (University) as she knew she could never afford to send me to the City from the Country.

So I went to the local TAFE and learned all I could, built a career and have done well. But many of my bright but poor friends didn't make it, they gave up to drink and drugs.

Sorry to go on but this, as you can read, is a topic very close to my heart. Being poor is circumstance, being ignorant is choice or lack of opportunity. I'm glad to see the Gov is reducing it to choice only.

Regards Peter 147 :)
 
I'm currently in business set-up mode & this thread has stimulated my thinking in the youth education area.

Anyone interested in doing some brainstorming around establishing a business which involves visiting schools & teaching children about investing/financial management PM me.

It's an idea that would greatly support our kids, support our schools (who are not equipped to do this) and could lead into some interesting spin-off opportunities around financial tools for young people & their parents to help communicate sound financial management practices.

Probably could finance it through govt. grants initially but would also involve some of us providing some time at our local schools.

Could also be extended to older young people just out of school.

Yes I know there are some products out on the market already - have one we're going to trial with our kids soon - but the products are only effective where the parents introduce them to their kids - which misses most of the population.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
I don't know what you guys think of this idea - but after seeing many people (such as Geoffw) say that "The Richest Man In Babylon" is a great read - I am half way through reading the book now.
I gave thought to this thread and thought - I am going to lend my children this book when they reach teenage years (if they are still talking to me :rolleyes: ) - to me it looks like an ideal way to start them off on the right path.
Maybe it should be part of the school curriculum??
 
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