Conveyancing Errors - Disasters or Petty mistakes...

The forum is filled with people advising don't touch the conveyancing yourself... And in large I'd say that's probably not bad advice, but back many years ago, "Gregory H" set a challenge - just what were the conveyancing disasters everyone was afraid of? ... or are they just apocryphal...?

Two results back then... One missed splitting pre-paid rent - $300. Another - an unpaid water bill of $80. Incidentally - both those stories involved professionals mind you, and were solved with a few hours frustration over a couple of weeks.

While the ultimate boogyman is "Black vs Garnock" in conveyancing/property purchase stuff-ups, (Anyone know how/if that was ever resolved....) I'm wondering if others here have horror stories to share. Pls give details $$$, time, other costs, heartache...

Thanks in advance, Luke
 
Conveyancers missed a $5 water bill one time - it was an accumulated late fee that probably wasn't even there at settlement time.

Otherwise they've been more helpful than anything - I've used the same conveyancer 6 times. Bank screwed us around something severe on the last house wanting to move the settlement day at the 11th hour for "convenience" and they spent most of that day calling backwards and forwards to convince the bank to settle on time or they'd have to completely redo all their paperwork. They did convince them in the end, and then sent their most junior grunt to stand in line at the lands and titles office for THREE HOURS on settlement day (bank was trying to avoid the busiest day of the year - why couldn't they have rescheduled settlement 2 months earlier instead of the day before if they knew the last Friday of the financial year was always busy?!?).

I didn't get charged any extra for this, but it must have cost *them* a lot of time and pain.

ETA: just remembered, when the vendor was screwing me around when I bought my first house and I didn't have a car and the vendor had 'lost' all the forms on settlement day and everything needed re-signing, they dropped them off to my house! I think I'm biased towards this conveyancer *insert lovey emoticon here*
 
I am still not 100% sure if problem was conveyancer, or bank, as they blame each other, but I am sure conveyancer should have picked up on error.

I purchased an IP on 18th December, 2008 and my second son was born December 23, 2008. 18th December was a Thursday, so the stuff up did not show on my account until December 23 (2 days before Xmas and the day my son was born)

The problem was that the bank had taken off Stamp Duty through my mortgage documents to the amount payable to vendor. The stamp duty was also withdrawn from my account, but did not show up on my account until december 23rd, when my account was then overdrawn. I had to shuffle money around to bring it back out of overdraw. It was a little hard to pinpoint as some shortfall was to be taken, but not the amount that was taken out.

Conveyancer and bank were nearly impossible to contact being on Xmas break and I had no time to take calls as my wife was having a baby.

Needless to say either bank, nor conveyancer could pinpoint where the problem arose and I had to go through all documents myself. Conveyancer had looked through mortgage documents for me a day or two prior to settlement and should have picked up on this. It was a 30 day settlement, so everything was last minute and kind of rushed.

The problem took over 2 weeks to resolve, as they had to check with QLD OSR to check if Stamp Duty had been paid twice before they could return my money.

I requested interest on my money and that all overdrawn fees be reimbursed. I only got the overdrawn fees, not the loss of interest.

I do not bank with this branch anymore and now have a private banker (thank god!!).

Mind you, also on my mortgage documents, days before settlement, I also picked up that they had charged my Vic Stamp Duty rates for a QLD property (bank was a Vic branch). A quick handwritten change and initial rectified this. Conveyancer also did not pick up on this and next to the costs it stated Vic Stamp Duty, not QLD Stamp Duty.

It was one stuff up after another. The branch and Conveyancer were as bad as each other.

It was a very stressful Xmas when we should have been overjoyed enjoying our new edition to our family.

I will not use that conveyancer again and the branch I will never use again. They were hopeless.
 
My first purchase was a private sale so I used a conveyancer at the time, considering I didnt know all the "in and outs" of a purchase it really helped.

If its a good conveyancer then they can save you alot of time, if they are useless then they will just end up wasting and costing you more money, I think they are like accountants, you get the good and the bad, if you find a good one stick with them!!
 
Not a problem, but actually the opposite....

Just purchased an IP this year that was on two titles, but couldn't really tell this easily from the Section 32. One title was 692m2 and the other was 8m2 (why I don't know!) Anyway, we put the deposit on and the real estate paperwork only had the one title on it (you guessed it - it was for the 8m2 title).

Luckily, they conveyancer picked it up and we had it changed with good will from real estate agent. Would have been interesting if the vendor wanted to challenge it in court - can you imagine paying $$$ for 8m2?
 
My current solictitor is a twit. He needs to have his hand held the entiire way through the process, and checked up on repeatedly to ensure he has done it properly. Won't go into it all on a public forum, but will either use someone different or do it myself next time round.
 
When we bought our house, the first settlement statement sent to us by the conveyancer forgot the FHOG, the stamp duty concession from the SA Govt, and had the totals wrong. Apart from that, she was great!

Needless to say, we have used a different conveyancer for our IP.
 
We had a solicitor stuff up our conveyancing 3 1/2 years ago and cost us - I'd estimate, in lost rental income, extra financing fees, extra construction costs etc - somewhere near $300K. On a $720K purchase.

I paid the solicitor for a consultation during my due diligence prior to purchase, telling him specifically what my intentions were for the property and what enquiries he felt were necessary. One of those, a particular search, I requested and paid for on 18th November, and he didn't conduct it until 5 weeks later, when we'd already gone unconditional. He knew, from our interview, that we needed all the searches done prior to going unconditional.

Even then, when the search turned up disastrous information (with respect to our plans for the property), we weren't given the search results, but just told "nothing showed up, everything was fine".

The first time we knew there was a problem was 6 weeks after settlement, when we found out we'd potentially purchased a $720K property which couldn't be made habitable, nor could we demolish and sell for land value because it was character-listed. That was fun.

We had a chance - we got a great consultant who said if we applied for a particular waiver, we just might get it, but it would cost approximately $100K in works and fees. We felt we had no option but to go for it. We went back to our lender and said "you know that IP we just bought? Well, you'll never believe what's happened, could we please have another $100K?" Well, they not only said "no", but they threatened to call in the loan because they were now aware that the asset was worth much less than the valuation upon which the purchase and finance were based. :eek: They said if we could refinance within 6 months they'd "look the other way" and pretend they hadn't noticed.

The fact that we were already highly leveraged at $720K, the valuation had dropped now that this search issue had come to light, and we had to find another $100K, meant that we were now at a VERY high LVR and had to take whatever finance we could get. We refinanced and with construction costs, ended up with $980K loan at about 13% pa. :eek: And the construction blew out by 6 months while we waited for the waiver to come through, meaning we had to find about $70-80K to cover holding costs above what we'd estimated.

The assets now worth about $1.4M and we've managed to refinance at a reasonable LVR and are probably going to be cashflow neutral for the first time this year - when we'd anticipated being cashflow neutral from day 1. We've been playing financial catch-up nearly every day since that disastrous day when the conveyancing error was uncovered. I often wonder if our solicitor - who'd probably done about 8 transactions for us over 7 years - has any idea how devastating his oversight has been to us the past 3 1/2 years.

We sought legal advice but were told that whilst he would clearly be found guilty of professional negligence, the difference between tort law and contract law would mean we'd get nothing.

In other words, if the vendor had assured us that the title was clear (ie and that formed part of the contract), then we'd be entitled to be restored to the position that we'd be in if the titling problem hadn't existed, and we'd probably get about $300K in damages from the vendor.

But under tort law, which is when a 3rd party to the contract stuffs up, you're only entitled to be restored to the position you'd be in if the error hadn't been made. In other words, if he hadn't stuffed up, we wouldn't have bought the property. Because we've bought the property and the market's going up significantly, we have at least a few $00K equity in the property (though we'd have had a lot more without this screw-up). So the court looks at it that we've benefited from our solicitor's negligence, because even though it was traumatic, we ultimately ended up better off by buying this property, than if we'd let it go.

I try and remind myself how lucky I am and how much I've "benefited" from the solicitor's negligence, during those months when it's difficult just to stay afloat. It doesn't help that we've had 3 years of zero to slightly negative growth during this time.

One more good year of growth and I'll be feeling a lot happier and we'll be able to emotionally and financially put this incident behind us.
 
One more good year of growth and I'll be feeling a lot happier and we'll be able to emotionally and financially put this incident behind us.

Amazing that you could live through this and still be pro-property. What a total nightmare.

I think stories like this make a good case to change the laws so that they are more like the ones in the USA(well, California, the only state I'm familiar with). As you have probably found out in your travels there, the resi vendor is 100% responsible for disclosing everything about a property. This is done with searches, paid by the vendor. Every search has to be completed by an independent professional company, signed off and viewable by every potential buyer before the property is listed for sale. The escrow office, independent of the agents, buyers and sellers, then check everything again before releasing funds and property.

There is something to be said for full, compulsory disclosure. This caveat emptor nonsense prevalent in Australia which results in such a disasterous scenario despite your best efforts is just so....16th century.
 
We had a solicitor stuff up our conveyancing 3 1/2 years ago and cost us - I'd estimate, in lost rental income, extra financing fees, extra construction costs etc - somewhere near $300K. On a $720K purchase.


But under tort law, which is when a 3rd party to the contract stuffs up, you're only entitled to be restored to the position you'd be in if the error hadn't been made. In other words, if he hadn't stuffed up, we wouldn't have bought the property. Because we've bought the property and the market's going up significantly, we have at least a few $00K equity in the property (though we'd have had a lot more without this screw-up). So the court looks at it that we've benefited from our solicitor's negligence, because even though it was traumatic, we ultimately ended up better off by buying this property, than if we'd let it go.


.

I disagree. A forensic accountant may qauntify your losses as:
1. All outlays to get property to a habitable condition (ie 100k waiver fee etc)
2. Loss of redevelopment profit if that was your plan- You need fairly concrete plans and costings to determine loss of profit
or 3. What damages are reasonably forseeable from the breach of contract (6 year limitation period) or damages for negligence ( 3 year limitation).

You will need to have told lawyer of your intentions for the lot so they are on notice for potential losses.

Get a barrister's opinion on it if necessary.
 
I disagree. A forensic accountant may qauntify your losses as:
1. All outlays to get property to a habitable condition (ie 100k waiver fee etc)
2. Loss of redevelopment profit if that was your plan- You need fairly concrete plans and costings to determine loss of profit
or 3. What damages are reasonably forseeable from the breach of contract (6 year limitation period) or damages for negligence ( 3 year limitation).

You will need to have told lawyer of your intentions for the lot so they are on notice for potential losses.

Get a barrister's opinion on it if necessary.
I lost another $11K getting two barristers' opinions on it. :eek:

Under contract law, what you say is completely true.

Under tort law, not so, apparently; you're not entitled to be restored to the position you contracted to be in; you're only entitled to be restored to the position you'd be in if the tort hadn't occurred. The barristers said if my solicitor had acted competently, we'd have not purchased the property and not suffered the "loss" of the $300K-ish. But because the value of the property went up to more than $1M ($700K plus $300K incurred), the Court views that we haven't "lost" anything, because we have some equity and we're in a "better" position than we would have been in had the tort not occurred. (Cashflow screwed, but on the balance sheet we're better off.)

Unless you can explain precisely where this reasoning is wrong, I'm not inclined to give another $5K-ish on a third barristers' opinion. :p
 
All of our conveyances have gone through OK in the end, but they all could have been de-railed many times. Without constant hustling up, constant checking of minutae in the paperwork, and without haranguing the nonchalant solicitors, nonchalant Lenders, and nonchalant settlement agents, it would be a complete nightmare.

Your only reward out of all of this stress and work is avoiding the nightmares as described by ozperp. There is no upside, just limiting the downside.

It is without a doubt the most stressful time of the entire ownership.

I find the chance of slip up increases the closer you get to settlement day. There is literally large chunks of money flying around everywhere, and the chance of an error goes through the roof.

Timewise, I've found in the past few years, that the masters of negotiation - the Banks, always box the investor into a corner and leave them no room to read / understand / negotiate, before insisting that they sign the paperwork and get it back to them ASAP.

If it's a 60 day settlement period, they'll drag out approvals 'til day 56, then insist they need at least 5 or 6 working days to gather documents, and therefore you must sign them as soon as you get them and we'll send a courier around to pick them up. Excuse me...when am I allowed to read the 300 pages you just sent through, with multiple clerical errors, like getting the name of the company wrong, the ACN wrong, and the address of the security wrong.

This is on a property that you've been scouring for, for the past 5 months, have a dossier 4 inches thick on that has cost you $ 8,000.00 and countless research hours in DD, have a signed contract on, and are very much looking forward to owning. The Banks response ?? "Oh well, if you don't like, we are more than happy to cancel the deal". No doubt you are. You've spent no time, no cost and no effort on it, and cannot see what a screaming bargain it is.

On the Black vs Garnock thing mentioned by the OP, we came across this just very recently. The Vendor's solicitor we were up against wrote the educational article summarising the case, and knew all about it back to front. We jumped in there and registered our "caveatable interest" on the title deeds ASAP after exchange. It's very difficult however when the Vendor is massive, totally unco-operative and couldn't give a rats, and warrants nothing about the property.

Our latest one was 120% caveat emptor, and there were at least 3 major things about the property and Lease that were not finalised at settlement, and at our total risk. It's taken 2 months of constant work after settlement to square the issues away and get into smooth sailing waters. I'd estimate about 65% of the conveyancing was completed at settlement. That's the price you pay however for obtaining as screaming bargain. Everything can be sourced back, IMO, to the amount accepted of the original purchase price.

I must admit though, we had 16 searches conducted, and relied on our solicitor to interpret everything was OK. I spent 2 full days reading thousands of pages to double check his legal advice, and could not see an error. These ain't no Mills and Boons books either, this is pretty dry, legalistic clap trap and pretty tough to plough through. I could easily see how you may have missed something ozperp.
 
I lost another $11K getting two barristers' opinions on it. :eek:



Unless you can explain precisely where this reasoning is wrong, I'm not inclined to give another $5K-ish on a third barristers' opinion. :p

Can't argue that point- I don't like feeding tha bast*rds either.
 
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