Cyprus raids banks accounts

It'll be interesting to see how the $80M "in the bank" number was worked out?? :confused: Specially when the banking industry was leveraged approx 8 times country's GDP...

I will ask him tonight. He watches lots of Foxtel and CNN finance so i assume that is where it is at.

He also pointed out that when the banks do re-open expect inflows of $ to AUS currency banks at 2% of something in a safe haven is much better than -40% of everything.

Thus $A rises.

Peter
 
I will ask him tonight. He watches lots of Foxtel and CNN finance so i assume that is where it is at.

He also pointed out that when the banks do re-open expect inflows of $ to AUS currency banks at 2% of something in a safe haven is much better than -40% of everything.

Thus $A rises.

Peter

I heard that figure mentioned on Inside Business last Sunday by Ivor Ries,
Also iirc the population of the Republic of Cyprus is around 8 or 9 hundred thousand.
http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2011/s3722490.htm

IVOR RIES, SENIOR RESEARCH ANALYST, WILSON HTM: Yeah. I believe the other thing you've got to bear in mind is the sum of money we're talking about here is about $8 to $9 billion - which is nothing in the scheme of things in Europe - and it's money that is owed to people who can't legally put their hand up and say 'I own it'.

Most of it is illegal money, right? So they can't actually go and lodge a claim in a court anyway and say 'I want my money back' because the people they stole the money from in the first place are going to say 'How did you get that money?'

ALAN KOHLER: What was that thing you were you saying about the deposits per person?

IVOR RIES: In Cyprus, the bank deposits per person is $80 million. It’s quite ridiculous. And the obvious answer is, all the money is from rich people from other parts of Europe - Russia, Eastern Europe - and it's basically stolen money, or illegally obtained money.

LIZ KNIGHT: It's laundered, yeah.

IVOR RIES: Yeah, and so they can never claim it back.

LIZ KNIGHT: The national industry in Cyprus is money laundering.

ALAN KOHLER: They're obviously not as good as the Swiss are at hiding money.

IVOR RIES: Yeah, the Swiss are the consummate at preserving wealth from other parts of Europe, but the Cyprus guys are obviously a bit rough in the way they deal with the money.
 
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FYI I was told by an educated friend...
He watches lots of Foxtel and CNN finance...
CNN finance is hardly cutting edge. Anyway...

According to reports in the magazine Newsweek bank deposits from Russian business corporations total $60bn out of a total deposits of $120bn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–2013_Cypriot_financial_crisis

1,116,564 - Cyprus Population. 2011 (Source: World Bank)

$120,000,000,000 / 1,116,564 = $107,472 per person.

For there to be $80m per person the total deposits would need to be:

$89,325,120,000,000 (1,116,564 x 80,000,000)

That's $89 TRILLION. At least by my calcs!
 
I don't know but FOX news says:

It's been estimated that Russians have more than $31 billion deposited in Cyprus banks.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/0...ecure-agreement-toward-bailout/#ixzz2OcV9oBkZ

Population from WIkipedia is 1,103,000 but it is 790,000 in the Republic of Cyprus where the matters resides. They use the EURO and the northern section does not.

So on this and other notes above, it would seem the ABC interview was way off. More like $39,000 per person.

But I guess it is irrelevant. What is more a concerns if the flow on effect tot he EU.

I have also read it may be a non event because the whilst the Banks are closed they own Russian Banks they are open and freely paying out.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/us-eurozone-cyprus-muddle-insight-idUSBRE92O0TM20130325

More and more this seems like a tipping event. A serious depression for the EU.

Peter
 
This is very worrysome.
Markets are not reacting much at this point, so i guess the underlying trading feeling is over-riding it.

But to me this is a very very big concern, given its dictated by the euro ministers and not some isolated country event (with its own currency).

Bank deposits (especially under the agreed limit) are sacrosant.
But the rules are being changed as the game progresses.

Gold reacting a bit, but silver is not. This is telling me that at least in the short term, the market is looking for excuses to 'buy the dip' in equities.

Wheather this will last i dont know.

But my warning attena's are beeping like mad.

This is only cyprus, but given that this has been done once bythe euro, we no know that if things get really bad in the future, they could do this to the other periphial euro countries, and if this happens, it will be really really bad.

They are breaking a basic rule book, a rule that has not been broken since the great depression.

Updates:
they got caught out on being 'obvious' in breaking the rule book.
So they back pedal a bit, at least the sacrosant small deposit gurantee is being mantained.

But continue to read through all the hype, and we still have rule breaks (although not so crystial clear as the first)

* we now have commentary that Bank of Cyprus will be held accountable for ECB loans to Popular Bank.

Whaaaaat????????????
Aren't they complete seperate banks with seperate legal entities??????
How can you lug a seperate entity with debts from another completely independent legal entity!!!!!!!

think about this for a moment. How can i explain this that will resonate with a property forum.

Ok how about this:

In simple terms, there is only one bank in australia to lend from. All australians borrow from this bank.
Different australians have differen LVR ratio's on borrowed property, some 30%, some 40% some 50% etc etc right up to 100%

Now lets assume property has a crash, property prices drop 30%.
Suddenly there is negative equity amongst the high borrowing group of property owners.

So the equivalent is the bank brings in a rule, those with higher than 70% debt (before the crash), loose their houses.

But here is the kicker,
Those with less than 70% LVR will suddenly have a 90% LVR.
Ie the bank will assume that you now owe 90% on your property, regardless of your actual LVR.

But you are different entities right? some under individual people, some under company structures? bank says doesnt matter this will apply accross the board.

Where is basic contract/commercial law??????
 
and to continue:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100588887

Dijsselbloem was quoted as saying that future bank restructurings could seek funds from uninsured depositors, among other measures, suggesting to already nervous investors that any European institution could grab depositor funds.


If the bank can't do it, then we'll talk to the shareholders and bondholders, we'll ask them to contribute in recapitalizing the bank, and if necessary the uninsured deposit holders," Dijsselbloem was quoted as saying in the Financial Times and on Reuters

Interpretation:

"I would read it as a broader message. No bailouts without some sort of bail ins," said Vassili Serebriakov, currency strategist at BNP Paribas. "I think he meant what he said. I think there's a general pressure for any type of bailout to be accompanied by private sector bail ins. I know we were told Cyprus was a special case."

After the markets reacted:
Dijsselbloem later denied that he called it a template, reiterating that Cyprus is a separate case

Interpretation:
My own words:
He got in trouble, the markets werent ready for this straight talk. He got some harsh phone calls, and had to retract his words.

"He's the new guy on the job," said Boris Schlossberg of BK Asset Management. "I think sometimes they try to be too honest. They have to learn to be more political and disciplined ... but all of this stuff is a sideshow

i see so its like my interpretation. Actually the officials are just reacting as things go along. Officials must use 'fed speak' to obfusicate (spelling) the clear meaning. But at least 'fed speak' only deals with legal central bank medalling. It doesnt involve the blatent breaking of the rule of law.

So how do the officials overcome this? they say its limited to cyprus, cyprus is a 'special case'.

BUT HOW CAN THE BREAKAGE OF THE RULE OF LAW BE A 'SPECIAL CASE'.
If you break it once, you can break it again.

Then there were some other media articles that i read (respected sources as far as media reports go), in a nut shell the commentary coming out of them was essentially the degree to which markets react determines the 'fixation methods we adopt'.

Now again look at this above paragraph again. And think it through. What B/S is this?????
Policy is dictated by market reaction?????
5 years after the GFC!!!!!

How can a long term secular uplift occur under these sought of market impositions????

For those long term Somersofters, you might remember i posted an article on secular bull/bear markets, a year before this terminology became common place in media writings.

You might want to refresh yourselves of it.

But one word of updated personal insights which i might not have posted in that original article,
within a secular bear market, its quite possible (and probable) to have cyclical bull runs that may last for several years, however as history presents its road, the underlying secular bear market is still in tact.

My feeling is that my original hypothesis is still intact.
I have made incredible returns over the last 5 years playing his market.

My nagging worry, is that could australia be like the US post 1987. Our underlying risks are actually different to the rest of the majority of the world.
We dont really have the global problems to the same degree. Could this result in a structural break out of our local market?????
 
IV I'm not sure of the breakdown in the rule of law.

To me the issue seems quite simple - uninsured and unsecured depositors left their money with the bank in full knowledge they could lose the lot in the event the institution goes under. This is what is happening and is the base case for any further discussions. If they get to keep some of their money as a result of ECB intervention then surely this is upside?
 
IV I'm not sure of the breakdown in the rule of law.

To me the issue seems quite simple - uninsured and unsecured depositors left their money with the bank in full knowledge they could lose the lot in the event the institution goes under. This is what is happening and is the base case for any further discussions. If they get to keep some of their money as a result of ECB intervention then surely this is upside?

(politely) what has this comment got to do with imposing liabilites of one instituion onto a completely seperate and independent institution
 
IV I'm not sure of the breakdown in the rule of law.

To me the issue seems quite simple - uninsured and unsecured depositors left their money with the bank in full knowledge they could lose the lot in the event the institution goes under.

This part of the comment is totall correct.

But you are not seeing the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is, depending on market reaction, i can now impose ADDITIONAL LIABILITIES on a seperate and legal institution, in the form of the ECM imposing its debts from Popular Bank to Bank of Cyprus.
Can i get away with this?????
If the market doesnt worry, then i can, if the market cracks a spaze, then i cant.

Since when is this rule of law
 
IV it has everything to do with it. Without this transfer both banks are defunct and both lots of depositors lose everything. This way at least some depositors get something (quite a lot actually). Losing only 10% was the previous solution after the rescue. Without any rescue at all, everyone loses everything. This is all upside from the base case without ECB / EMC intervention... for all the Cypriot banks.
 
IV it has everything to do with it. Without this transfer both banks are defunct and both lots of depositors lose everything. This way at least some depositors get something (quite a lot actually). Losing only 10% was the previous solution after the rescue. Without any rescue at all, everyone loses everything. This is all upside from the base case without ECB / EMC intervention... for all the Cypriot banks.

you still dont get it.

Maybe the underlying meaning lies in 'Draco'
 
Some context...

Let's put the size and potential reverberations of the Cypriot issue in context.

It seems as if the impending German elections, had an effect on the prescribed outcomes, as it seems as if Germans have had enough of the profligacy of other nations states

The only thing of note, is that bank deposits or part at least, those in excess of 100,000 euros who are not insured, have been 'raided', it could raise the possibility of this happening elsehwere. But again, the likelihood of this is still very low imo.

All be forgotten at least on a macro level in a few weeks?
 
So - not only is the government allowed to rape your money whilst it's in the country - it is no longer allowed to leave other than in dribs and drabs of a few Euro's per month.

Looks like they've got the Russian depositors by the short and curly's

http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Top..._L1-4_Cyprustolimitcashtakenabroad_RSS_270313

Or they're long gone
The Cypriot central bank has defended itself by saying that it was impossible to completely prevent all transactions, despite the account freeze. Much of the money was withdrawn from overseas, where Cyprus had no authority. Branches of Cypriot banks in non-euro-zone countries such as Russia and Britain do not answer to the European Central Bank. Their liquidity is controlled by central banks in those countries.
 
He also pointed out that when the banks do re-open expect inflows of $ to AUS currency banks at 2% of something in a safe haven is much better than -40% of everything.

Thus $A rises.

I've got some AUD I want to sell (transfer o'seas) so I hope your mate is right but his theory looks flawed if there are restrictions on preventing Cyprus funds from going abroad; although I guess there could be inflows from other sources which may boost the x-rate.

Cyprus's central bank will impose capital controls to prevent funds going abroad, limiting what travellers may take out, restricting credit card purchases and slapping a ban on cashing cheques, local media have reported.

Banks in the Mediterranean island nation will reopen at lunchtime on Friday (local time) after two weeks of frustration and resentment, but customers will not be allowed to take out more than 300 euros ($367), and cashing cheques will be banned. Payments out of the country have also been severely restricted, with a maximum of 3,000 euros allowed to be taken on each trip abroad.
 
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