Dick Smith's Population Puzzle.

Loving the fact some old adversaries are starting to look behind the facade of the inner city, cafe late sipping, greeny pseudo intellectual and start giving them (us) some credit.

Most green voters are high income and live within 10km of the cbd btw...

TC first post was great....

ww having a hard time adjusting though.
 
Looking at that chart though we were actually on track for another million yrs at least until 1500 ac - when man began to develop really , just too bigger brain for his very own survivals good .
That's pretty depressing really !
 
From boing boing (charles platt), here: http://boingboing.net/2009/01/30/charts-3.html

To what extent do we feel overcrowded, as a species? I’m not talking about resources; just psychological factors.

For me it is indeed a great feeling flying back into Oz, something about this old place...

Square_Feet_Per_Person.png
 
Nice one.

But does it say more more about how much of our country is uninhabitable? Surprising to see the comparisons to Canada and Russia.
 
The link on the top of my previous post has his article/thoughts:

To create this chart I turned to the CIA Factbook, where I looked up the populations of various nations and then divided this number into their land area (excluding lakes and rivers) to get the number of square feet available per person. I represented the results in squares that are all drawn to the same scale.

Of course if you are in Australia, where each resident has almost 4 million square feet to play with, you won’t make full use of your land ration, if only because most of it is desert. On the other hand, when I was in Australia I did feel intuitively aware that the country was, so to speak, empty. As soon as I drove out of an urban area, the emptiness was right there. Conversely, in Hong Kong, where citizens have barely more than 1,600 square feet each, everyone is intensely aware of being crammed into a very crowded place.
----and so on, there is more.
 
...actually my understanding of Canada is similar to us, (perhaps not desert tho':p), but meaning "uninhabitable like", according to some friends over there. They tend to urbanise heavily like us, from memory Australia is actually one of the most focal urbanised countries, which will sound contrary to that chart Charles has done...but you can soon see why.

Here we go:

Australia is an independent Western democracy with a population of more than 20 million. It is one of the world’s most urbanised countries, with about 70 per cent of the population living in the 10 largest cities. Most of the population is concentrated along the eastern seaboard and the south-eastern corner of the continent.

ripped from: http://www.about-australia.com/facts/
 
You might say, We could do with another plague. Or mother nature will deal with us in her own time.
 
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There's some annoying facts in this debate such as the reality that moving people from poor countries to rich countries is one of the best things that can be done on a global scale to reduce global population growth. So can I ask the "close the borders" crowd whether they would prefer to see:

- A world with more people.
- Or a world with significantly fewer people but that involves some compromises on the size of the average blocks of land or the number of ski boats per capita in this little country of ours.

I'm still yet to be convinced sticking up our collective middle finger to the rest of the world's population problems is in my family's best interest... and I agree we should always act in accordance with what is in our own interests.
 
There's some annoying facts in this debate such as the reality that moving people from poor countries to rich countries is one of the best things that can be done on a global scale to reduce global population growth. So can I ask the "close the borders" crowd whether they would prefer to see:

- A world with more people.
- Or a world with significantly fewer people but that involves some compromises on the size of the average blocks of land or the number of ski boats per capita in this little country of ours.

I'm still yet to be convinced sticking up our collective middle finger to the rest of the world's population problems is in my family's best interest... and I agree we should always act in accordance with what is in our own interests.


I'm busting to write a big reply to this HE, but maybe tonight. Bit firstly, what are you proposing? Tell us what you would do?

Would you leave immigration at it's current high rate of say 200 to 300 thousand. I already know you want more humanitarian and less skilled, so leave as is, but just adjust it a bit?

Would you slash skilled, and increase by heaps humanitarian but have a lower overall rate?

Would you increase immigration further from here by heaps and try to reduce the strain in poor countries? If so, how many?



And how do you get westerners to lower their standards of living, move into multi-story units, sell the boats, lower energy use, stop driving cars and going on holidays, and stop eating meat? Any government that tries to do this will get voted out.



What if we were dumb enough to increase our immigrants to a million a year. keeping in mind some countries are growing at millions per year, like Pakistan, growing at 3 million per year, or Ethiopia, 2 million. As I've said before, we would quickly reach 60 million people and suddenly become a food importing nation.

The grain I grow gets eaten here and exported overseas. Here, it mostly gets fed to animals, and turned into a T-bone steak, eggs, pork, milk. In asia it gets either eaten directly or fed to animals and gets turned into a meat that gets put in small proportions in a stir-fry or similar. In Africa my grain gets eaten directly. Grain at 25 cents per kilo will feed a lot of people for little cost. That's why food price increases effect the third world so much. If grain prices double, it costs an african twice as much to eat. In the west, double the price of grain, and it has a neglible effect. Wheat costs 25 cents per kilo, and there is just 15 cents worth of wheat in a loaf of bread. Double grain prices in western countries and food prices won't even rise by 10%.

As I said before, Australia grows enough food for 60 million westerners, or 120 million asians, or 200 million africans. As far as I can see, by increasing our population to 60 million we are committing 100 million or more africans to starvation. They are heading there anyway no matter what happens, but it will just happen a lot earlier.


See ya's.
 
I mean really , it looks ok Graemsay , Melbourne has lots of streets like that but I guess I'd have to see the big picture , behind that pic !
At anyrate your moving to Oz yeah , don't worry mate heaps of space over here .

Delft's a lot prettier than Melbourne.

Not sure what the plan is just yet with Oz. I was chasing a few jobs down there recently, but they didn't come my way, unfortunately. I'm tied up with something until the end of the year, so sometime in the New Year, I guess.
 
There's some annoying facts in this debate such as the reality that moving people from poor countries to rich countries is one of the best things that can be done on a global scale to reduce global population growth. So can I ask the "close the borders" crowd whether they would prefer to see:

- A world with more people.
- Or a world with significantly fewer people but that involves some compromises on the size of the average blocks of land or the number of ski boats per capita in this little country of ours.

I'm still yet to be convinced sticking up our collective middle finger to the rest of the world's population problems is in my family's best interest... and I agree we should always act in accordance with what is in our own interests.

My guess would be this HE. A price on carbon enchourages developed nations to reverse the need for population growth as a driver of economic growth. If we do a good enough job of it we will finally learn how to survive/prosper without population growth. Extrapolating that further tells me that a high enough wolrd wide price on carbon would enchourage developed countries to share those technologies with highly populated but underdeveloped countries. So eventually real economics stop being about competition and starts being about sharing technologies.
 
Bit firstly, what are you proposing? Tell us what you would do?

Hi TC
- Reduce the baby bonus and other forms of MCW - we don't need more babies! No problem if people want to have them though, just don't support that decision financially... :) We can then rely on our affluence to decrease our own birth rate by itself. All the research points to the increasing wealth of a country decreasing its birth rate, at least in the absence of MCW.
- Yes, a material increase in humanitarian intake to a reasonable number. To me that's around 50,000 genuine refugees per year for a nation of our size and means. And don't wait for them to get on a boat before they come here...
- Reduce the skilled migration program. I know from personal experience that 457 visas are all too easy to come by. If a large employer asks - they get. So why would they bother training their own people? I've seen plenty of junior engineers get looked over for training and senior roles because experienced people can be so easily imported. Why would an employer bother training someone in that case? Take away the easy option and watch how fast they figure out ways to grow their own senior staff.
- I'm also comfortable with a 200,000 to 300,000 total in the short to medium term. I'm not advocating wholesale changes at once - I'm actually reasonably comfortable with the status quo but we still need to plan 10, 25, 50, 100 years out. A plan that shows where our revenue will come from and what infrastructure is required and in what areas. For example, I would support a plan that reduced taxation in key regional areas to encourage population growth where it's needed.
- On other topics, yes a simple carbon tax along GST lines alongside reduction / elimination of other taxes.

In short, it is in our own interest to demonstrate to the rest of the world how we can help them reduce their own population (ie we should be part of the solution rather than part of the problem) and light the path to a more sustainable means of accomodating that population (energy being the most critical part of that problem).

And how do you get westerners to lower their standards of living, move into multi-story units, sell the boats, lower energy use, stop driving cars and going on holidays, and stop eating meat? Any government that tries to do this will get voted out.

Over the last century democracies have shown themselves to be up to the major challenges they have faced - like two World Wars for example. But people need to know the facts and the reasons behind the decisions that have to be made. We have only just started this discussion on a national level really so we can't expect too much too soon. Nevertheless, when push comes to shove (eg peak oil) I'm confident we will make the hard decisions - after all we will have no choice! The question is how far ahead of the curve can we get ourselves, rather than waiting for decisions to be forced upon us in potentially less than desirable circumstances.

With the baby boomers dropping by the wayside and some less selfish generations following, you may be surprised! :p Just track the Green vote... :D

As far as I can see, by increasing our population to 60 million we are committing 100 million or more africans to starvation. They are heading there anyway no matter what happens, but it will just happen a lot earlier.

Ummm, those extra 40 million we take in will no longer be living in Africa but here? The same number of people are in the world and the same food supply is available if we do it right - they just live here rather than in the third world. We might have to drink flat whites instead of cappuccinos as a result but those 40 million people who came here will end up having a lot fewer babies than they otherwise would have. So there is much more food available than the "business as usual" path as there will be fewer people in the world.

Not sure if I read your thinking correctly on this one?
 
Actually I see where you are heading now. You think the extra food eaten by the extra 40 million people who are now in this country will swamp the impact of their reduced number of offspring.

That may be the case but firstly the population debate is made up of more than just food issues (eg if you have energy you can make more food...) and secondly no doubt these 40 million extra people could probably teach us a thing or two about healthier, less wasteful and more sustainable eating to boot. Again a cultural change is required because a price signal won't work by itself as too many people in the third world will probably starve before we change our ways through having to pay more. Cultural changes are far easier to achieve when you have a lot of people who are used to more sustainable uses for food.

Also, the inefficiency of turning grain into meat etc will ratchet up the price impact of an increase in grain prices in the first world quite considerably. So there would be some switching away from meat etc as a result - no idea by how much though. Certainly not enough by itself...
 
we are choosing to cut right back on meat and go for veggies these days but find the cost is more. Meat eating seems under priced. (probably needs some sort of Labor tax placed on it)
 
The way I see it is that the world's population growth needs to be controlled maybe similarly to China's one child policy. With third world countries growing at the rate they are, no matter how accommodating first world immigration policies are, they will breed faster than they can be fed or accommodated.
 
Once the motor's moving , it should be able to generate most of it's own energy anyway. If something spins you can generate from it, it just needs the right gearing , better storage technology.

Not quite.

You can use an electric motor as a generator. A motor takes in electricity and converts it to kinetic energy, whereas a generator takes in kinetic energy and converts it to electricity.

Unfortunately the fundamental laws of physics prevent you from getting something from nothing. If you stop pedalling on a bike, or engage the clutch on a car whilst moving then both will slow to a stop eventually. Friction from the road and air converts kinetic energy into heat, and therefore robs the vehicle of its movement. A generator will have a similar effect.

Cars like the Toyota Prius have what they call regenerative braking, where a generator is used to capture some of the kinetic energy being scrubbed off when you slow down and convert it into electricity. That's energy conservation (it'd only go to heating up the brake disks otherwise), rather than energy creation.

If you're interested in the green energy debate then this article by Lewis Page throws some cold water on some of the rhetoric about becoming a zero carbon society. Well worth a read.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/20/mackay_on_carbon_free_uk/
 
The way I see it is that the world's population growth needs to be controlled maybe similarly to China's one child policy. With third world countries growing at the rate they are, no matter how accommodating first world immigration policies are, they will breed faster than they can be fed or accommodated.

Yeah your spot on . The long and the short of it really is that the more populated countries do have to slow breeding right down , right down. Doesn't sound nice but it's reality or where do we go - 12 bill' - 20bill' or in 100yrs 100bill' - it can't be done !

Cheers
 
Not quite.

You can use an electric motor as a generator. A motor takes in electricity and converts it to kinetic energy, whereas a generator takes in kinetic energy and converts it to electricity.

Unfortunately the fundamental laws of physics prevent you from getting something from nothing. If you stop pedalling on a bike, or engage the clutch on a car whilst moving then both will slow to a stop eventually. Friction from the road and air converts kinetic energy into heat, and therefore robs the vehicle of its movement. A generator will have a similar effect.

Cars like the Toyota Prius have what they call regenerative braking, where a generator is used to capture some of the kinetic energy being scrubbed off when you slow down and convert it into electricity. That's energy conservation (it'd only go to heating up the brake disks otherwise), rather than energy creation.

If you're interested in the green energy debate then this article by Lewis Page throws some cold water on some of the rhetoric about becoming a zero carbon society. Well worth a read.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/20/mackay_on_carbon_free_uk/


Yeah of course, physics again , 3/4 of the things we do shouldn't be either don't forget. I'm actually working on ,edited [ I've taken this out rather than wast time arguing ] but I'm playing around with you could say three different little projects right now that shouldn't be either but they basically do and will work - and hey I'm not even any good at this stuff but it's a lot of fun . Most of the little projects I'm doing are just my own modifications and ways of changing around old news and systems really .

But there's much much bigger going on all over the world right now way against physics.
But hey does it make any difference here in a property investing club , now that's really against physics !.
What your saying about the no can do is just a matter of an engine producing more energy than it uses among other goodies.That's one of my little projects right now. It'll be done commercially but it's also in backyard sheds across the world right now just as in the old lady up the roads self powered push bike , it's old news her hubby built that 20 yrs ago , a bit like some of the 40 yr old water engines a round.

I built a solar system on one of my cabins but the crap I've read , expense & costs , the not practical . Well I knew absolutely nothing about solar at the time except I've had a few friends over the yrs with solar houses and I'm about as electrical as house brick but
I did a bit of reading , jumped on ebay , 900 bucks and built my own onto the cabin.
It's been lived in for 12 mths stints a few times now and no complaints at all actually.
If I'd also spent the power connecting fee on top of that, it'd practically power a freight train - so to speak of course .

Nope, not the slightest bit interested in green energy debates here of all places now that is a wast of energy, I already know exactly where we're headed .

All I've tried to say is that it's just like the Internet. Just look how far it's come and how life has changed in even just 10 yrs.
Now that the world knows it needs to find alternatives and it's finally excepted , with some seriousness and focus , my guess is give it even just 5 yrs from now and we'll all be amazed.

Cheers

PS , I'll throw in a solar setup diagram when I get back for anyone who hasn't seen the workings of it - very very simple stuff , you can build your own easy . People do all the time.
 
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Just a side note, if anyone's really interested there's dozens of clubs all over the nett . Living of the grid , making your own solar power , making your own wind power , homesteading , I'm in 4 or 5 but I don't really have the time to play about anywhere near as much as I'd like to unfortunately
You should take a look around in a few of those you wouldn't believe what some people are building out there . One guys been mowing his lawn with his home made water powered lawn mower and driving his home made water powered car for years . That one was even on ACA . But really that one's been going on for years all over the place anyway but , still pretty amazing .

Cheers
 
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