Disc Trusts - Is Asset Protection Weaker than we Thought?

Hi Gang,

I was just reading DBA Bulters latest newsletter (see link below). Those with Trusts may want to read the article "Asset protection and discretionary trusts" in light of a decision handed down in relation to the Westpoint fallout.

http://dbabutler.com/download/dba_newsletter_200607.pdf

It would be interesting to hear what any forum members more knowledgible about trusts have to say about this.

Cheers - Gordon
 
Trusts are for protection against liability claims. I have heard that they will not protect you against:

.The ATO
.The family court
.Bankruptcy proceedings

I assume asset protection should proceed along these lines.
 
Hey!

I was listening to Chris Batten and his friends on this very court case just the other day. They do not feel that the position is weakened as a result of this court case, at all.

Have fun

Dale

austini said:
Hi Gang,

I was just reading DBA Bulters latest newsletter (see link below). Those with Trusts may want to read the article "Asset protection and discretionary trusts" in light of a decision handed down in relation to the Westpoint fallout.

http://dbabutler.com/download/dba_newsletter_200607.pdf

It would be interesting to hear what any forum members more knowledgible about trusts have to say about this.

Cheers - Gordon
 
I note in the newsletter that it says you may need to review "who" the Appointer is?

I'm sure that there are numerous other ways that some of these executives "own everything but control nothing" such as via nominee companies etc and some of the Asset Protection specialists may be able to shed some light here?

Redwing
 
Interesting article not that many comments! I thought that more people would be interested. What structure do people use with their IP's?

cheers
 
Johny

Not many comments presumably because not many people have the specialist knowledge to comment. (Or, perhaps they do have the knowledge but don't disagree with what has been said already :D )
 
Hi Gang,

To be honest the article confused me somewhat. It mentions the importance of who is nominated as the appointer. However the defendent in the case I think was a director of the trustee coy and beneficiary of the trust. His wife was the appointer from memory!

Cheers - Gordon
 
geoffw said:
Trusts are for protection against liability claims. I have heard that they will not protect you against:

.The ATO
.The family court
.Bankruptcy proceedings

I assume asset protection should proceed along these lines.
and also allow you to disperse the income in the most tax efficient manner.
 
austini said:
Hi Gang,

To be honest the article confused me somewhat. It mentions the importance of who is nominated as the appointer. However the defendent in the case I think was a director of the trustee coy and beneficiary of the trust. His wife was the appointer from memory!

Cheers - Gordon

Maybe there was a degree of seperation needed (Just guessing here- for a more informed opinion please defer to those in the know :D )?

redwing
 
But how much seperation do you want from your assets Redwing?
Would you make a stranger the appointer of your trust?
Or would you consider me as appointer? Ha Ha

The more seperate the appointer the more risk you may have of them running off with youe assets. And if they do how are you going to get your assets back.

I'll stick with someone close as appointer thanks.

Cata
 
The reality is that the appointer is the person with all the power. Even though they can't make decisions on who gets the money, they are seen as the 'controller' because they can put somebody else in as the trustee if they want. So don't be flippant when putting in a new appointer.

I believe for government pensions, that they will be affected if the person receiving the pension is an appointer to a trust, because of this effective control.

You've mentioned bankruptcy as a factor. This is the same thing as being sued. If somebody sues you then they get a ruling for more than you have, thus when you dont (can't) pay, they can bankrupt you and try to get to your assets. This is why your asset protection strategy must distance you from your assets in the event of bankruptcy.

I've been told by a number of people that in the event of bankruptcy there is no problem if you're set up correctly. If your assets are being liquidated, your role of appointer cannot be added to your estate, so no liquidator can take that role on. If they could, they would be able to become the appointer, appoint their own trustee and do what they want with your assets. This is fair enough, because if a trust has assets purely for the beneficiaries, then they would be affected unfairly as their asset would be taken from them even though they were not the ones being liquidated.

The people who have given me this information are:
Commercial solicitor (quoting Wiley's case)
Chris Batten (from his website)
Ed Burton
Another accountant

However, keep an eye on ruling like this to make sure this doesnt change. I saw one a while ago where it almost got up (it was only 2 judges for and 3 judges against). And, of course, continue to seek your own legal advice.

Tubs
 
I understand that effective control is a test the court can apply which can undo a trust however I can't understand how they got to this conclusion particularly when the appointer was not the defendant however I'm sure there's more to this. If someone is aware can they please expand?

Also if someone is to control a trust for myself, my partners, any potential kids, etc benefit I would feel uncomfortable if it were not ourselves. Might this be a case to have your trusted accountant set up as an appointer or trustee (which I remember in a thread somewhere in here) albeit this has its own question marks.
 
tubs said:
I've been told by a number of people that in the event of bankruptcy there is no problem if you're set up correctly.
I had heard that you needed, not only to be set up correctly, but for an appropriate amount of time.

Waht I was told (from memory) was that a bankruptcy court can unravel transactions made within a certain time period (12 months?)
 
If it is proven you are insolvent at the time of structuring, I believe it can go 5 years back. Other than that 24 mths.

Cata
 
The most significant amendments will:

* increase the time limit for recovering under-market value transfers to related parties;
* allow the trustee to recover consideration paid to third parties in some circumstances;
* create a rebuttable presumption of insolvency where a bankrupt has failed to keep proper records; and
* void those transfers where it was reasonable for the transferee to infer the bankrupt was trying to avoid creditors.

Something along those lines anwyay.

Cata
 
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