Drug Warnings

[Olly]

(bold is mine)

Olly,

I don't understand the process whereby you draw this 'logical' conclusion.

Can you explain the process of determining how the vaccine was the only logical conclusion?

I was waiting for something ike this from you Acey I know with your scientific bent you would like me to produce facts and figures based on valid tests and not assumptions, but that's not always possible. In this case the assumption has been made by process of elimination. We've looked at ALL other possible reasons for this change in him and haven't found a thing. Yes, it could be pure coincidence that he got sick following a vaccination but that remains the only link. If they find something concrete which discounts the vaccination as the cause I'll be more than happy to apologise for jumping to conclusions.

Particularly when tests have revealed nothing medical as the cause.

That's my point. If he is suffering from something known why can't they pinpoint it? Conclusion - it must be something new/unknown/uncommon. Next step in the thought process - what has he recently been exposed to that he's never had before - answer - this vaccination. By the way - how do they test for a reaction to a vaccination?

How were things such as allergies, bedtime or diet changes, the child's normal growth, the onset of winter and other such non-medical potential causes discounted?

All looked at and more. Nothing new/differnet/changed has happened. Funny that you should mention allergies. Normally you remove the offending item that is causing the allergy - food, animal etc. How do you remove the allergy producing ingredient from something that's been injected into you?

Is it a process of simply blaming the vaccine because the doctor can't find anything else (circumstantial evidence), or is there positive proof that the vaccine causes this type of reaction on occasion?

No, but there isn't positive proof that the vaccine didn't cause the reaction either.

In either case, would you and your family prefer that the child caught the disease for which they are being immunised? How much disruption would that cause and over what time period?

Depends on the disease. Like I said - I don't follow the all or none approach. While I can see that some vaccinations may be OK, I think that some are unnecessary and that the child should build it's own immunity by having the illness naturally not artificially.

Cheers,
Olly

 

[Aceyducey]

While I can see that some vaccinations may be OK, I think that some are unnecessary and that the child should build it's own immunity by having the illness naturally not artificially.

Yes I know someone whose folks felt that way until their daughter got polio. She became profoundly deaf from the age of 12.

Olly, there SHOULD be a (mild) reaction to these innoculations. Most vaccines are a mild form of the disease or a near relative that allows the body to build up its natural immunity without having to catch the disease 'in the wild' at full strength.

The effects of the late onset (in adulthood) of a number of childhood diseases, such as measles and mumps, can lead to sterility, blindness and other highly adverse reactions.

The alternative to exposing children to a weak version of a disease in an innoculation is to ensure all our children are exposed to these diseases at full strength while still children in order to avoid the possibility of late onset issues.

This is the natural way to build resistance. One of the other outcomes is a much higher infant mortality rate.

I'd suggest with the child having a reaction from something that you follow the approach we like to think we use in our society of innocent until proven guilty rather than guilty unless proven innocent.

There are clearly documented side effects that occur one in X cases of innoculations and unless if the reaction matches this it's highly unlikely that the vaccine is the cause.

It's very easy to simply catch a virus - particularly if the body's defences were slightly lowered as it was busy countering the vaccine (as it's supposed to do). In that case the vaccine could be contributory, but not the cause of the sickness.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[Lissy]

My major concern with vaccinations is complacency. This covers a number of areas:
1) the assumption that vaccinations are safe. Well, maybe they are for most kids, but not for all of them. And having worked in adverse reactions, I can tell you now that anything which surfaces more than 48 hours after a drug is taken, will NOT be counted as an adverse reaction. To me that's just ludicrous. there are plenty of things that take longer than 48 hours to manifest.
2) the assumption that vaccinations actually WORK. Well, sorry, but again that's rubbish. In fact the take up rate is not 100%, and some vaccinations are as low as 80%. So here we are, all wandering around thinking that the vaccinations have worked and that we're protected for life - not true.
3) the assumption that vaccinations are better than no vaccinations. with all other drugs, double blind placebo testing is essential - what this does is prove that taking a drug is more effective than not taking it. Vaccinations don't have to prove that they achieve anything, only that they're not poisonous.
Kev, I'm glad your kids are healthy, it seems to be becoming a rarity these days. I've had a lot of people tell me that by not vaccinating my child I'm putting theirs at risk. But quite frankly, if vaccination is everything it's meant to be, then shouldn't MY child be the only one at risk? If all the others are vaccinated, they should be protected, right? So the fact that people bring this point up regularly suggests to me that deep down, we all know that vaccinations aren't what they should be, but the pressure to conform and "do the right thing" is stronger.
Like I said in my earlier post, I've seen a lot of the "dark" side of the pharmaceutical industry being in adverse reactions, and it's not pretty. I've seen many studies questioning vaccination and its efficacy, only to see them all torn apart by the big drug companies. Drug companies have millions of dollars to spend on research that supports their products, whereas their opponents have almost nothing. Drug companies have a huge amount invested in the goal of 100% vaccination, and on balance I refuse to risk my child to satisfy their bottom lines.

 

[Lplate]

Immunisation? See a Real Doctor for an Opinion

The problem with threads such as this is that inevitably some doubt is planted in the minds of parents or parents to be about the efficacy and safety of immunisation for their children.

I don't doubt the best intentions of the opposing side, however in Australia, drugs and information provided on them go through a very rigorous examination process before they are released. Where public funding of immunisation is proposed, there is a further raft of approval processes.

On the other hand, there is NO quality control whatsoever of allegations, usually by lay-people, that the approved drugs and vaccines could be harnful. It is about facts and risk management.

Following the birth of our first child, my wife had fits of anxiety caused by some ill-informed comment alleging risk of 'brain over-heating, shock and eventual coma' in children following triple antigen vaccination. Fair dinkum it was a load of old bollocks and although exhaustive studies have been done, NO study had ever found a link.

However my wife, like some others was not reassured by this and she wanted to 'prove the null hypothesis', as it were. [This is a problem of course, only Oz journalists can prove a null hypothesis. ]

With time she lost her fears, but for a time we had children whose only protection against certain horrendous diseases was the high vaccination rate of the immediate population of which we were part. We were lucky in this respect.

Ill-informed comment has already caused a reduction in childhood immunisation in Australia and diseases previously 'unknown' such as Whooping Cough are on the resurgence.

With the greatest respect to all, I'd advise parents to listen to the professional, independent advice of their family GP, pediatrician and State Department of Health.

Better to focus on ridding your home of pesticides, strong cleaning agents and safety hazards - that is where timely action will result in lives saved.

My 2 cents worth
Lplate

 

[duncan_m]

The problem with threads such as this is that inevitably some doubt is planted in the minds of parents or parents to be about the efficacy and safety of immunisation for their children.

I fully understand what you're saying but a how can a population give complete allegiance and trust to its governmental health agencies when they've allowed so many disasters to occur over the years and to CONTINUE to occur?

 

[Olly]

Hi Olly

I once learnt that combining proteins and starches in the one meal isnt a good idea since they both require different enzymes and different times to get throuygh the system. The simple carb like white rice will need to get through reasonably quickly, whereas the protein needs longer to be cycled.

Yes, I've read that too and it's something that Sandra Cabot pushed in her bestseller - The Liver Cleansing Diet. The liver acts differently for proteins, carbs etc and when they are mixed the liver does crazy things trying to cope.
My father has a really old 'diet' book that he has used from time to time. Basically he only eats meat on one day, only eats fruit on another etc so the liver can do it's job properly with each food type. The weight drops off him too!

At the extreme end of this, in some people, with say pizza or pasta with lots of meat content, ever noticed how it can make one bloated and gassy ?

Um, no comment

Cheers
Olly

 

[Olly]

With the greatest respect to all, I'd advise parents to listen to the professional, independent advice of their family GP, pediatrician and State Department of Health.

With all due respect to you and your choice, I will never blindly follow the advice of a family GP, specialist or government body. I will always listen to what they have to say, do my own research and make my own choices. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 incidences in just the last 10 -15 years where I'm glad I didn't follow my doctors/specialists advice - when going through a depression a few years back I was prescribed valium and prozac - didn't take them and 'cured' myself with more natural means, didn't have my thyroid taken out and live on pills for the rest of my life (my blood tests continue to fall in the normal range not requiring medication so I must be doing something right) and didn't have the ligaments in my face tightened to fix a 'clicky' jawbone on one side. It only gives me trouble if I've eaten something especially chewy like a doughy bread roll or tough steak. I can live with that.

Over the years I've watched the confusion created by the constant switching and changing in dietary advice, medical opinions, what level of exercise is just right, what is or isn't good for you etc. Dairy food is good for you - dairy food isn't. We should eat more meat - we shouldn't. Chicken is a better meat to eat - yeah right! Eat more vegies, but they're are sprayed with who knows what. These drugs have been thoroughly tested and are safe to use (remember thalidamide), drink more milk - don't drink more milk, soy is better than milk - soy isn't better than milk and so it goes on. I know I've been confused by it all which is why I choose to make my own decisions now.

Doctors do make mistakes. All their learning is based on what is good or works for the majority of the people, but we are all different and one size doesn't fit all.

I appreciate it's harder to make these decisions for someone else - your children - which is why I said I'm glad I'm not in that predicament now.

Congratulations to you Lizzie for having the strength to stand by your convictions.

Cheers
Olly

 

[Rolf Latham]

Hiya All

We have freedom of choice - thats the most important thing.

Both my little buggers have had all the shots, and Im 99.99 % sure if they hadnt, the time we have spent in typhoid, measles, and malaria infested places I wouldnt have an 8 and 5 year old that havent missed a day of school.

One takes judgement calls on a regular basis. I was quite recently on an anti-malarial, often also prescribed as a form of anti-biotic.

6mths of exposure to the same drug and a good friend of mine had a form of leukemia, subsequently recovered, you have to wonder ........

ta

rolf

 

[Lplate]

I fully understand what you're saying but a how can a population give complete allegiance and trust to its governmental health agencies when they've allowed so many disasters to occur over the years and to CONTINUE to occur?

Duncan
You are probably right, there has not been much honesty from Govt in recent times and not even the semblance of Ministerial accountability. Political appointments are rife at all levels of govt. I'd say that most people recognise that they are being fed spin and bulldust by senior people in bothe public and private sectors in an environment where self interest, opportunism and greed prevail.

I think our leaders have gone out of their way to earn the cynicism and mistrust of the community. On the other hand, I believe there are enough courageous, forthright and ethical people in medicine to 'out' charlatans and 'bad' public health policy.

Still, you've got to wonder when confronted by the continual labelling of normal health issues as 'diseases' so that a drug company can make megabucks. A example could be the identification of menopause as a 'disease' and the proliferation of drugs for 'treatment'. Another could be the 'behavioural problems' of youth that need to be treated with dangerous 'psychiatric' drugs such as Ritalin and Sertraline. What they do to normal kids going through growing pains in an uncertain world would make you weep.

Lplate

 

[kissfan]

Hi again all, especially Duncan.

Just wanted to add that since the start of this thread, I have literally dropped approx 5 kilos in weight. Please note that I still have not read the Paleo Diet book yet, but have been following the basic guidelines (of how I perceive them anyway) from the Paleo website and from the questions that Duncan has kindly answered. As I already mentioned, I had a concern about losing too much weight but for anyone wanting to lose those excess pounds, you should really consider this eating plan. Prior to this thread, I considered myself to be eating a fairly good diet, although I did go a bit stupid over Easter, which is a bit unlike me, but anyway, so far, I've basically been eating heaps of fruit, vegies, salads, tuna, have included nuts (walnuts) into my diet. Am finding breakfast the hardest meal to come up with for ideas on what to eat, as before I would have cereal or wholegrain toast (which I thought was healthy), but now I'm having a couple of pieces of fruit and maybe some nuts thrown in. Like to have the walnuts with raisins. Oh yeah, am also eating lean meats, which I was already doing, but if the weight keeps dropping off I may have to increase my intake of meat or devise a better system using the same foods. As I mentioned before, my goal is not to lose weight, even though I can afford to as at present I'm now down to around 90 kg's, but if I get down to the 85kg mark, I feel a bit scrawny.

Anyway, just thought I'd let you know and apologise for getting away from the vaccination/medication theme.

Regards
Marty

 

[Lissy]

On the subject of tuna....
What other alternatives are there in this Paleo diet for someone who is unable to eat fish? I ask because it seems to form a fairly central part of the eating plan.

 

[duncan_m]

On the subject of tuna....
What other alternatives are there in this Paleo diet for someone who is unable to eat fish? I ask because it seems to form a fairly central part of the eating plan.

Tuna doesnt really form a central part of the eating plan, its more just a lean meat or fish. Tuna just tends to feature prominently because its exceptionally convenient.

Any lean meat is fine, the more 'free-range' it is the better.. Other options are shellfish, squid, octopus, cat, and of course eggs.

 

[duncan_m]

Hi again all, especially Duncan.

Just wanted to add that since the start of this thread, I have literally dropped approx 5 kilos in weight.

Neat!

Consider getting your body fat percentage measured. Its worth working out if your concerns about dropping too much weight are valid.. if its the appearance side of things you're concerned about it it would certainly be healthy to maintain a bulkier appearance with muscle than fat.. Lean muscle is a better look than a little bit of fat too

 

[quoll]

g'day Kissfan

Have you thought about doing some weight training, not sure how much the back problem will restrict you? I'm down to 66kg and starting to think I need to change my training plan to bulk up a bit. I'm 5'10" so about average height but getting to the low end of the weight scale. Might have to start eating more nuts and protein, and do some low rep heavier weights.

I can't think of any other way to increase your weight / bulk other than adding muscle and the only way to add muscle is to work it, therefore doing low rep heavy weights is the only way I see to add the bulk.

Are there any other ways?

Good luck
quoll

 

[Lissy]

Thanks Duncan.
A number of Coles supermarkets near us sell a free range chicken brand, with no added hormones etc.
I have to say that it does actually taste a lot nicer than the normal cheap stuff.
Not so nice for the hip pocket though! When it was first launched not that many people bought it, so it was quite easy to buy marked down packs closer to their use by dates. Now more often than not that section of the shelf is empty. Sigh....

 

[kissfan]

g'day Kissfan

Have you thought about doing some weight training, not sure how much the back problem will restrict you? I'm down to 66kg and starting to think I need to change my training plan to bulk up a bit. I'm 5'10" so about average height but getting to the low end of the weight scale. Might have to start eating more nuts and protein, and do some low rep heavier weights.

I can't think of any other way to increase your weight / bulk other than adding muscle and the only way to add muscle is to work it, therefore doing low rep heavy weights is the only way I see to add the bulk.

Are there any other ways?

Good luck
quoll

Hi ya quoll.

I think you're spot on with the weights. I used to work out a fair bit prior to back/neck problems and may have to consider doing some sort of resistance training if I continue on this trend. In your position I would definately consider getting stuck into the weights. Don't just do the low rep heavy sets either, mix it up a little with different routines. You may want to do (for the one body part) 2 heavy workouts followed by 1 lighter workout, of course, allowing adequate rest in between workouts. Dont forget such exercises as squats, deadlifts, bench presses and a basic shoulder press work major muscle groups and allow for maximum weight usage.

It's all a personal thing, but for me 66kg's would be too light, but as I get a bit older (and hopeully wiser) I also start to think more about health and longevity so maybe I should/could lose a bit of weight and try to add lean muscle.

*Sigh* If only one knew all the answers in life.

Regards
Marty

 

[duncan_m]

Hippocrates

A recent article on mercola.com that quoted Hippocrates led to some googling and these 2 great quotes:

"Leave your drugs in the chemist's pot if you can heal the patient with food."
-- Hippocrates

"Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be your food."
-- Hippocrates

And of course, the already well known:

"First, do no harm."
-- Hippocrates

 

[House_Keeper]

Am finding breakfast the hardest meal to come up with for ideas on what to eat, as before I would have cereal or wholegrain toast (which I thought was healthy), but now I'm having a couple of pieces of fruit and maybe some nuts thrown in. Like to have the walnuts with raisins.

I also used to have cereals for breakfast. That was until I realised that it was yet more carbohydrates added to my diet (I eat quite a bit of rice).

Since then I have switched to a big salad for breakfast. I mean lettuce, cucumber, tomato, onion, avocado, nuts, broccolli, cauliflower, carrots.

I've also stopped having coffee and I feel so much better during the day. I don't feel tired as I used, needed to drink coffee throughout the day to keep me going. I found the salad to be very refreshing to eat, and extremely easy to digest. I don't feel heavy, even after eating as much salad as I can possibly eat.

I feel this is the best diet change I have made in a long time.

Try it. You might be surprised.

Cheers,

 

[bawley]

Brekky was the most chalenging for moi when I became wheat intolerant. My favourite at the mo is to turn on the non stick pan, warm some olive oil and throw in tomato, zucchini, capsicum etc and when it's nice and almost stewy fry two free range eggs next to them, nick out the back door and grab a couple of parsley stalks and crumble on top, lots of freshly ground black pepper - yummo

 

[kissfan]

I also used to have cereals for breakfast. That was until I realised that it was yet more carbohydrates added to my diet (I eat quite a bit of rice).

Since then I have switched to a big salad for breakfast. I mean lettuce, cucumber, tomato, onion, avocado, nuts, broccolli, cauliflower, carrots.

I've also stopped having coffee and I feel so much better during the day. I don't feel tired as I used, needed to drink coffee throughout the day to keep me going. I found the salad to be very refreshing to eat, and extremely easy to digest. I don't feel heavy, even after eating as much salad as I can possibly eat.

I feel this is the best diet change I have made in a long time.

Try it. You might be surprised.

Cheers,

Hi House Keeper

Prefer salad/s during the day. Currently, I'm sticking with the fruit and nuts for breakfast, but may add a small tin of tuna. Later on in the day I make up a large tuna salad (tuna, tomato, lettuce,carrot, eggs (no yolk), cucumber etc) which may last for 2 meals. The beauty of this eating plan is that I don't have specific "meal times", I just eat, or snack might be a better word to use, whenever I feel the urge as I know it's all healthy food (mainly fruits, nuts, or berries etc). The suggestion bawley made also sounds quite nice too, very omelette like.

Regards
Marty