Emotion / Emotion vs. Logic / What do we have here?

What follows are some rambling, not very well articulated, thoughts.


Emotion as a part of the investment decision making process

I don't have the figures myself, but I believe I am correct in saying that owner-occupiers (or expectant owner-occupiers - ie. people who buy a place so they can live in it "one day") are the largest driver in many property markets.

Having never bought a PPOR myself I can only speculate that when buying a PPOR that the decision is or can be quite an emotionally charged one. This is, after all, not just a house (or a unit or a villa) - it is a home.

I recognise, of course, that emotions wont pay the mortgage and that the folding stuff is required. In the economic sense demand can be defined as the "desire to purchase (the emotion) backed up by the capacity to purchase [a given quantity] at a given price" (the financial aspect).

Regardless, *if* what I have said above is true, or holds true, or is an accurate generalisation - or even if it is simply specific to certain "markets" - then in those markets where it applies we have a situation where a key driver is an emotional one.

And we all know that particularly first homebuyers tend to buy the most expensive place they can afford. That may sound like a big statement to make - but I would argue that it is little more than basic human behaviour / economics 101.

What role does or should emotion play in the investment decision?

To what extent should we, as investors, be looking to capatilise on the emotions of the PPOR buying public?

And I am assuming here, rightly or wrongly, that if people want to live somewhere but for some reason cannot or are unable to buy a PPOR in that location - that in many cases they would be prepared to rent.



Emotion vs. logic

To continue in the same vein as the two questions above, I'd like to very briefly explore emotion vs logic in the investment decision making process.

What I am specifically talking about here is the contradiction that can exist between what the data tells you about the state of the property market in any given area and the situation where that area remains (for what ever reason) ever popular or unpopular as a place to live.

How, as investors, do we reconcile these?



Why am I asking these questions?

I am increasingly of the belief that there are numerous "lifestyle locations" dotted all around Australia and my pet theory at the moment is that for the foreseeable future they continue to offer good opportunities for capital growth - albeit often with poor yields owing to recent growth in those areas.

The demographic drivers are, imho, the baby boomers and so called sea-change phenomenon.

I suppose what I am asking is - is this "boom" simply another cycle like all those that come before it (not that I have any experience) or are the demographics now so different - an ageing population that moves (in general terms) towards the coast and north - that we should throw the book out on what has happened before and start with a clean slate?


I would really appreciate any thoughts that forumites have on any of this stuff - good, bad, indifferent.

MB
 
With the way the age demographics are changing in Australia.....

less young people to carry the burden of the older retiring population and the number of retiring baby boomers looking to "sea change" then it stands to reason that this property cycle is going to differ to the ones previous.

Perceived desirable locations will IMHO contiue to grow.

cheers

bicko
 
A couple of months ago there was a link to an article that drew the conclusion that the See Change phenomena was not a new thing. Possible the difference now is that it has a new trendy name.

My parents " retired up" to the Central Coast about twenty years ago. After a few years they moved back to Randwick and then on to Roseville.

It sounds nice but for people who've spent their lives in the City , even the Central coast doesn't have much to do , let alone somewhere like Lennox head. It will appeal to some people, but " the Family " in practice don't get to visit as much as they thought they would and it's a long way away from the GrandChildren. ( obviously for some grandparents, this may be a deliberate ploy :) ).

I've watched some Coastal area s in NSW over the last few years, and when the market is quiet , they get very quiet and go backwards.

While some places are going to develop a Niche market appeal but these will be subject to all the vagaries that effect other places. A friend of mine has invested fairly heavily in Airley Beach ( good timing ) because he ( and many other people ) think that it's going to be the "next Noosa ". One fairly wealthy developer decided the same thing but started investing several years prior to my friend. I met the developer last year and he said for the first few years he was wondering if he'd made the correct decision becasue for all Airley's potential , it wasn't moving. It didn't start moving untill the rest of the market down south started moving.

I'd be reluctant to buy anywhere on the coast that has seen significant growth in the Current cycle. If you pick the correct place , it may well move, but I'd consider it to be a riskier investment than waiting a while for a good buy in Sydney which is , on the balance of probabilities ( IHMO ) more likely to move before trendy coastal resorts , all of which have seen significant growth in the Current Cycle.

Even relatively non Trendy Places like Forster have seen prices of basic houses triple in the Current cycle. I'd have a bet than in 5-6 years those places will be cheaper than they are now.

I actually look at the emotional aspect from a different angle. While an emotional home owner may pay over the top for a house in a nice area, they are also only going to do this in areas where you have lower yields. That may be ok if your expecting rapid growth soon , but in most places , that's already happened , so you're going to be holding negatively geared property for possibly a long time before you get capital growth. Coastal areas move later than Sydney , so you're not necessarily going to be able to revalue to get capital to take advantage of oppertunities that will arrive in sydney.

For all the talk of cash flow Vs Capital growth, the one thing that does actually make you significant money is the Capital growth , so you want to be able to have your money available to take advantage as early on in the next cycle as possible.

Getting back to owner occupier areas Vs Investor dominated areas, the one thing I've notice is that because of the higher rate of investors who are more prone to sell than home owners, cheap Investor areas go down more , but in percentage terms go up by a greater degree when the next boom comes along. If you time your buys into these areas, you can buy cash flow positive properties, so you are in a position to expose your self to greater potential returns.

See Change
 
Many Good Questions young Pitt St.

Go out on a limb here and say the average Peter find buying a PPOR very emotional.

Also I have always thought OPTIMISION & CONFIDENCE has a lot to do with the buy as big as possible theory.

Many persons see PPOR as extension of self. I.E. flash house = flash me. Also some people see it as a once in lifetime deal; get it big because it has to last a while.

Could never understand why a bed-sit in Kings Cross for $100k didn't interest 20 year olds as a starter? Small loan and move on in 2-3 years? Again the extension of self issue it would seem?.

As for sea change, I suffer this disease but it is tempered with reality. I think many spend the best 4 weeks each year at Generic Beach and fall in love with the holiday feeling. Living there can be very different as see change put.

But as many more do the move these areas will change and perhaps become more habitable for long stays but until the jobs move there, the real money will be in the Cities.

Regards Peter 147
 
Personally I'm not a particularly emotional buyers when selecting a PPOR. That's because I consider it simply another investment property that we happen to inhabit, and having lived in 9 houses/units/townhouses in the last 10 years in several states & countries I just don't feel that kind of attachment to a hunk of brick, tiles & plaster on a bit of dirt.

My feelings on regional coastal areas are akin to See_Change's views.

There are a number of beautiful places that people visit on holiday, decide to retire to and then either get bored (if young retirees) or need medical care (older retirees).

It is generally not feasible for kids to move to be with their parents due to work commitments & lifestyle choices, thus the parents either have to move back for support or be isolated and reliant on more or less strangers.

Longer-term this will be a major issue for these areas as the supply of baby boomers will dry up & there are insufficient GenXers to replace them in retirement....even if GenXers do retire enmasse in this fashion.

Thus while I believe there are a few more boom cycles to come in a number of these regional areas, looking at the 25+ year window I wouldn't want to be holding retirement-styled assets in those trendy retirement locations unless the area has created a large and robust economy that isn't solely based on medical care & services for the elderly....or has created a sufficiently large and attractive retiree service infrastructure that it becomes the Mecca for retired GenXers.


But hell - I moved to Canberra for the lifestyle so what would I know ;)

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Hi Acey

I also wonder if suburbs may actually contract in 20+ years time? Hard to call. In theory with less children the push to move to the burb for Gen X & Y will be less perhaps we get a reverse donut city happening?

What about the effect of technology. Call centres in Gosford, Lithgow and India when not that long ago it was CBD.

Peter 147
 
Peter 147 said:
I also wonder if suburbs may actually contract in 20+ years time? Hard to call. In theory with less children the push to move to the burb for Gen X & Y will be less perhaps we get a reverse donut city happening?
Peter,

I think it depends on how immigration is handled to keep our population up. Or if we can change the economy sufficiently to let more women choose to stay home - and follow up with the social engineering to MAKE them choose to stay home (don't laugh - in Singapore there are big ads everywhere from the government encouraging women to get married & have kids).

Given the number of grass castles built in the burbs, these could suffer a dramatic price crash if family sizes keep declining in the next 20 years....kids move out, parents sell-up to move to the sun....no takers :)

Of course on average migrants have larger families than 2nd & greater generation Australians - so maybe they'll go for the grass castles.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
see_change said:
A couple of months ago there was a link to an article that drew the conclusion that the See Change phenomena was not a new thing. Possible the difference now is that it has a new trendy name.

My parents " retired up" to the Central Coast about twenty years ago. After a few years they moved back to Randwick and then on to Roseville.


See Change

My parents chose to retire to Port Macquarie. This was over 20 years ago. Since that time my Father has passed away and transport to Port Macquarie has declined along with costs rising much more than CPI. My Mother is now stranded there, with little money, no transport (she doesn't drive), no friends (because they were all left behind and has not made any new ones) and no family. Although she is too proud to say so, I believe she would dearly love to move away from there. What was once an idealic dream has in reality turned into a nightmare. I, for one, will not choose to retire away from major services, family or friends.
 
skater said:
I, for one, will not choose to retire away from major services, family or friends.

Having seen what my parents did, I agree. They were lucky in the fact that they were able to buy back into the sydney market, but my Sister who moved to Canberra, can't afford to buy back into where she used to live in sydney.

What I would like to get though is either a Waterfront PPOR on Pittwater :) or failing that , a weekender that the family can use as a get away place. Not as an investment , but as an lifestyle buy, But it would need to be only a short drive from sydney , other wise it won't get used.

See Change
 
see_change said:
Having seen what my parents did, I agree. They were lucky in the fact that they were able to buy back into the sydney market, but my Sister who moved to Canberra, can't afford to buy back into where she used to live in sydney.

What I would like to get though is either a Waterfront PPOR on Pittwater :) or failing that , a weekender that the family can use as a get away place. Not as an investment , but as an lifestyle buy, But it would need to be only a short drive from sydney , other wise it won't get used.

See Change

Bloody good point See Change!

Keep you options open! Always have a presence in Sydney?Melbourne via an IP and you can also move back.

I lived in Coffs Harbour for 7 years and moved in 1995 to Sydney. Could buy back in CH ok but not the reverse.

Peter 147
 
Aceyducey said:
Peter,

I think it depends on how immigration is handled to keep our population up. Or if we can change the economy sufficiently to let more women choose to stay home - and follow up with the social engineering to MAKE them choose to stay home (don't laugh - in Singapore there are big ads everywhere from the government encouraging women to get married & have kids).

Given the number of grass castles built in the burbs, these could suffer a dramatic price crash if family sizes keep declining in the next 20 years....kids move out, parents sell-up to move to the sun....no takers :)

Of course on average migrants have larger families than 2nd & greater generation Australians - so maybe they'll go for the grass castles.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

Hi Acey

Feature in the Sunday Paper Mag re How will we be living in 2024. Says the McMansions in western Sydney to decline as preferred choice hence bad investment.

Peter 147
 
Peter 147 said:
Feature in the Sunday Paper Mag re How will we be living in 2024. Says the McMansions in western Sydney to decline as preferred choice hence bad investment.
And they didn't even pay me for my opinion! :D

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
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