Enviro freindly self sustainable house

[flatout]

Picture this...rural retreat 10-30 acres in picturesque location (in autumn/winter/spring when everything is green but hot and dry in summer) about 2-2.5 hours from a capital city. Straw bale house which has superior sound and thermal insulation qualities, completely self sufficient in terms of water (rainwater tanks), power (solar and/or wind generated), waterless/composting toilet etc.

What sort of capital growth would you expect a property like this to have? On a par with local market, less because it may only appeal to a small, niche "greenies" market or more because of its uniqueness and virtually zero outgoings for utilities etc. The locality would be considered a "tree change" region. I look forward to reading your opinions.

Flatout

 

[Mark C]

Flatout,

I've been doing a reasonable amount of research lately regarding sustainability in property.

Your property doesn’t seem to be located in an area with a short supply of land i.e. Basic fundamentals may dictate that this property will only increase in value at the same rate as others in the same area.

Without knowing the exact area it's fair to say that the same amount of rain/sun falls on this property as others and any new house being built in the same area will have to be constructed to a "Class 3" energy efficiency, so it seams apart from building materials and some PV's their is nothing “unique” about it.

There is an eco-village being built in Currumbin Valley behind the Gold Coast, Straw bale house is one of the designs being built here. It might be a good proving ground to see if being “Green” pays off.

Mark

 

[topcropper]

Flatout,

Your property doesn’t seem to be located in an area with a short supply of land i.e. Basic fundamentals may dictate that this property will only increase in value at the same rate as others in the same area.

Mark

Everyone assumes that rural property has less capital gain than city. This is correct. However, this is on the assumption that we are talking about the same area of land, or a house on a quarter acre. Once you add land ie. 10 to 30 acres, you end up with as much, or in reality much more land content than a house on a quarter acre in the city. This 10 to 30 acres, therefore could have as much chance of capital gain as any city property.

Acreage blocks in tree change areas have shown incredible capital gain for many years. I wouldn't mind betting that the capital gains from acreage land in tree change/sea change areas would beat any other land investment for capital gain.

To get the same capital gain in rural areas as the city, all you have to do is put some land together.

See ya's.

 

[topcropper]

waterless/composting toilet etc.

Flatout

I don't know too much about a waterless/composting toilet, but I certainly don't like the sound of it. I would think this would devalue a property if many ordinary people think like I do.

Normal rural septic systems work great. Surely you could work out how to get enough water to run a normal toilet? NO!!!! Please don't use rain water either! The rubbish water goes down the toilet.


I live on rain water. It's easy, how ever my rainfall is summer domainant. Winter dominant rainfall and none in the summer makes rain water more difficult. You will need big tanks.

See ya's.

 

[Dazz]

What sort of capital growth would you expect a property like this to have? On a par with local market, less because it may only appeal to a small, niche "greenies" market or more because of its uniqueness and virtually zero outgoings for utilities etc.

I'd expect the same...no change from the surrounding props.

Shire rates, water rates, land tax and insurances would all stay the same. Interest rate to buy the place would all be the same. That's all of the big costs, so people looking to purchase would have to stump up the same ongoing costs....hence they'd probably offer you the same price.

I don't think utilities (the cost of water / power / gas etc) are significantly large to rank in comparison with the larger costs as listed previously.

 

[Beef_Hooked]

You will need big tanks.

Gday TC,

we have 5 people in our house and use a 100k watertank. Down here SW, WA, we have fairly regular rainfall (1000mm) and find the tank has dropped over the summer to about 20/30% by the time the weather breaks in mid April (later of recent years). I harvest from about 400sqm and it takes no time to fill once it starts raining.

While a 20% buffer is a little tight when it doesn't rain until June as in recent years, if I was concerned I would probably catch the odd summer storm as well. As it is the diverter is engaged and it runs away.


Gday Flatout,
I have known of a couple of sustainable house being sold down here and the sticking point was def. the composting toilet. People like to be separated from their sh*t by a sheet of water and it can turn people away.

Apart from that, in my observations and conversations I have had with REA's, most of the sales recently have been to weekenders. On a rural or semi rural block a house with a bit of character, maybe owner (hippy) built, will sell much faster than a brick and tile project style home. Buyers want to feel their rural retreat is in the "Down South" style.

Here is a brick and tile on a semi rural block. It's been on the market for 6 months or more and the price has even risen (listed at 725k now 740???) It's a fairly nice large house but despite over 2000 page views, no offers.

An example of character, a couple of doors down this house here sold in no time.

In town, the market seems to be more accepting of the suburban fortress style brick boxes.

Can you say which town?

Cheers,
Beef.

 

[the_captain]

I cant comment on the sustainable housing, but I can comment on the composting toilets.

Many years ago I walked the Overland Track in Tassie. It had (in 1991) composting toilets. They were your basic long drop, with a solar panel on the roof that drove a fan. The fan dried out the err, leavings and nature did the rest.

These were my favourite toilets to use, as they did not stink and were generally cleaner than your standard long drop.

However I dont know what the finished composted material looks like. I reckon a lot of people would be put off having to handle it, but it shouldn't smell at all.

 

[grossreal]

hi all
this subject is very dear to my heart at the moment at we designed a house that was not only enviro friendly but was very cost effective the fresh water is reproduced via evaporator units using grey water and the walls are made from blown concrete with balls of insulation.
the walls are 3 mtrs high so the hot air runs across the ceiling and does not need an air con
the house comes with an air con but thats to heat at night as the house is build like a cool room
the base is 400 mm concrete for thermal mass. and the roof can lift to all air movement.
the design is for multi tennants and was designed for an area like karratha hence the reason I went there but will go just as well in india.
the development is up to all items must fit and be erected out of two 44 ft containers and the islands will be our first attempt.
the house must be able to be errected and functioning with min time frame to construct and must be seft contained.
waste matter is eaten via a small worm farm and the soil this produces goes into an internal glass house that doubles as the evaporator unit for the grey water when the water containers are full.
it is a very interesting project not alot of profit at this stage but if we can make it work I will let you all know.
my .002

 

[topcropper]

Gday TC,

we have 5 people in our house and use a 100k watertank.

Cheers,
Beef.

Now ya talking.

That's a great sized rain water tank. Everyone would be impressed by that around here. Instead of laughing their heads off at the silly thousand litre ones people seem to be buying.

 

[keithj]

Picture this...rural retreat 10-30 acres in picturesque location (in autumn/winter/spring when everything is green but hot and dry in summer) about 2-2.5 hours from a capital city. Straw bale house which has superior sound and thermal insulation qualities, completely self sufficient in terms of water (rainwater tanks), power (solar and/or wind generated), waterless/composting toilet etc.

What sort of capital growth would you expect a property like this to have? On a par with local market, less because it may only appeal to a small, niche "greenies" market or more because of its uniqueness and virtually zero outgoings for utilities etc. The locality would be considered a "tree change" region. I look forward to reading your opinions.

This exactly the option we chose about 2 yrs ago - 20 acres, <1.5 hours from Syd. We're currently building eco friendly design, high thermal mass, N aspect, etc.

We had the choice of spending $50K for transformer or $50K(ish) for photo voltaic solar. We chose grid power, because we perceived the property to be more valuable (& therefore could borrow more against it) & also to be more saleable. However, we will have solar hot water (for pool & under slab heating).

We also chose to put in mains water for the same reason, although we do have plenty of roof area & storage.
We have our own sewerage works (Ecomax) - it's completely invisible, doesn't smell - it just looks like a bit of lawn.

I am expecting cap growth to be on a par with the market. Without mains power or water, I'd expect there to be a far more limited market & that would be reflected in the valuation.

 

[Beef_Hooked]

Now ya talking.

That's a great sized rain water tank. Everyone would be impressed by that around here. Instead of laughing their heads off at the silly thousand litre ones people seem to be buying.

Council requirements around here state a minimum of 120k now, 100 to use and 20k in reserve below a camlock for firefighting.

Your right about the 1000 litre tanks, and who was the rocket scientist that came up with the idea of taxpayers money going to subsidise them.

 

[kinga4610]

I assume these figures are all litres and not gallons.
20000L (5000gal) I hate to say, probably would not save your house in a bushfire.

 

[Beef_Hooked]

Hi kinga4610,

Yes I'm talking litres.

to put the 20K litres into perspective:

A standard fire fighting chopper carrying a collapsible bucket takes about 450 litres, the reserve would fill that 40 odd times.

Even Elvis, the legendary US made helitanker carries an incredible 9 000 litres of water (9 tonnes of water!!) and you can put out a "hell" of a fire with one of those monsters.

The most likely scenario would be your reserve water being used by your local firefighting vollies with a large 3.4 fire fighting appliance (The big 4wd trucks). These units have a capacity of 3000 litres and you can put a lot of fire out with one of those.

20 000 litres would fill one of those up almost 7 times. If you can't save your house with that It aint gonna be saved.

Cheers,
Beef.

 

[flatout]

Gday TC,

we have 5 people in our house and use a 100k watertank. Down here SW, WA, we have fairly regular rainfall (1000mm) and find the tank has dropped over the summer to about 20/30% by the time the weather breaks in mid April (later of recent years). I harvest from about 400sqm and it takes no time to fill once it starts raining.

While a 20% buffer is a little tight when it doesn't rain until June as in recent years, if I was concerned I would probably catch the odd summer storm as well. As it is the diverter is engaged and it runs away.


Gday Flatout,
I have known of a couple of sustainable house being sold down here and the sticking point was def. the composting toilet. People like to be separated from their sh*t by a sheet of water and it can turn people away.

Apart from that, in my observations and conversations I have had with REA's, most of the sales recently have been to weekenders. On a rural or semi rural block a house with a bit of character, maybe owner (hippy) built, will sell much faster than a brick and tile project style home. Buyers want to feel their rural retreat is in the "Down South" style.

Here is a brick and tile on a semi rural block. It's been on the market for 6 months or more and the price has even risen (listed at 725k now 740???) It's a fairly nice large house but despite over 2000 page views, no offers.

An example of character, a couple of doors down this house here sold in no time.

In town, the market seems to be more accepting of the suburban fortress style brick boxes.

Can you say which town?

Cheers,
Beef.

Hi Beef,

Thanks for your comments. I think the general reaction from posters here is that a composting toilet wouldn't be a popular choice in terms of resale value/potential. I'm still researching the subject but it seems that a watered loo would be the way to go. Essentially we're looking for a weekender but our own preference is for a "character" home which we would be happy to owner build ourselves or restore an existing cottage/farmhouse. As to where - picture a triangle around Williams, Wagin and Beverley which encompasses some lovely undulating countryside and within 2-2.5 hours drive from Perth/Mandurah. Ideally somewhere around Narrogin would suit us fine. My inquiries with REA indicate that it won't be easy to find the "right" block at the "right" price, although not impossible. The trick is to be patient but make sure that we're in a position to pounce when we need to.

Larger parcels of land (say 100-150acres) seem more readily available but the higher price tag is prohibitive. One angle that I'm currently looking at is the buy and lease-back option. This would have the advantage of making the property at least partially tax deductable but lenders would likely consider this a commercial investment which seems to attract lower LVR than normal residential lends. Second option we're considering is buying a larger parcel of land and subdividing into say 20 acre blocks but I haven't looked into this at all yet and have no idea even if it is possible or what it would cost.

Flatout

 

[JFisher]

Sounds great Flatout!
Sustainable design is one of our passions also. Slowly the idea is getting more popular too to look into sustainable/solar passive/energy efficient etc design. However people, for the most part, are still only happy to pay a small percent extra for these features and will look more at cosmetic changes such as water saving taps, a small rainwater tank to flush toilets (sorry TC, but too much viticulture/citrus spraying here to drink it without filters), and solar HWS. The HIA released a newsletter recently to members (think it was them as I deleted it after reading) which stated that more than 50% of buyers will still only pay between 1-11% (for memory) more for 'sustainable features'.

I think our children will be the true catalysts for change in this area; they are being brought up and educated to think in a way that many people now still struggle with even though there are droughts. I think also that many councils struggle with building materials and practices that are outside the square. They tend to forget that the BCA is 'one' set of guidelines for acceptable construction, but that if other ideas can be supported then they still are legally able to be built. I only say this because I know of a couple who wanted to built a straw bale house...what they are ending up with is a BV like most others in our council. Don't expect the council to do any homework, do it all yourself and talk to them through the process so that you get them onside.

Good luck and would love some photo's when it gets going.

 

[JFisher]

Oh and with the toilet, Mr Fish and myself have a complete water treatment system (one concrete tank with 4-5 sections inside). It takes all of our grey and black water which is then aerated, chlorine treated and drip irrigated onto our garden area. There are regulations governing how and where the water can be used but these differ between states and councils, so if you are interested then look into it. We put in a Taylex Clearwater Compact 90. I think they are manufactured in Qld somewhere.

 

[Mark C]

Jfisher,

buyers will still only pay between 1-11% (for memory) more for 'sustainable features'.

There is a perception that "sustainability" is expensive, 1-11% is a reasonble price.

I went to a AGDF (Australia Green Development Forum) meeting a few weeks ago at Kelvin Grove. I was able to speak to a number of small - medium developers who where building "Sustainable" type developments. Overall the view is for 5% extra in build costs they where able impliment 80% of sustainable concepts in their product and sell it for about 10% more. ie. 100% return on their sustainable investment.

A representative from Mirvac, Devine and Stocklands also attended the forum. The Stocklands representative stated "If developers don't incorporate sustainability into the design of their housing within the next 3 - 5 years they will be looking to go out of business".

I'm investing in sustainability right now, I believe it's going to play a big part in the future of housing in Australia.

Mark

 

[Eee]

Now ya talking.

That's a great sized rain water tank. Everyone would be impressed by that around here. Instead of laughing their heads off at the silly thousand litre ones people seem to be buying.

Holy cow - 1000L tanks!!!! - the cost of the plumbing and install would outweigh the benefits. Unless you are living somewhere where it rains very very regularly.

We have 6 tanks altogether - totalling 228,000 gallons. Roof area about 1300 square metres. It is great - we did almost run out of water late last year though. And we don't use any of it for stock, crops or garden.

 

[topcropper]

Hmm. Bugger.

I thought I was the rain water king on somersoft.

228 thousand gallons

I have a couple of hundred thousand litres. You win.
But you did only just join. At least I can say I was the king.

See ya's.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Holy cow - 1000L tanks!!!! - the cost of the plumbing and install would outweigh the benefits. Unless you are living somewhere where it rains very very regularly.

We have 6 tanks altogether - totalling 228,000 gallons. Roof area about 1300 square metres. It is great - we did almost run out of water late last year though. And we don't use any of it for stock, crops or garden.

Gees....that's a lot of tank...was tempted to play with the math....

seems you need around 800mm rainfall to fill the tanks from empty on that 1300m2 catchment. and I am guessing the rainfall at Numeralla varies between 200-400mm pa?

If you are providing for 6 people at 200litres pp/day, that's 340mm of rain consumed a year...

And the tanks would cover half a 700m2 suburban block if 3 metres tall.