Everyone is quiet now

I have really noticed a big drop in postings on this website at least compared to six mths ago.
It seems the economic times have quietened people down. Are people disenchanted with property now?? Have a whole lot of people gone bankrupt?
I notice some of the old hacks who have been through downturns are still posting but a lot of people have gone off to spend their time doing something else other than posting.
Thats my observation anyway.
I will stick around and do my bit to talk up the market.
 
same here, i noticed a lot of bad quality post, and most of it have been discussed before.

Only read one person who post here that he bought some cheapie in west sydney.

It looks like a lot of people busy buying cheap properties now. or stuck with increasing interest rate, and have to work harder ?
 
I can't speak for anyone else but I started to tune out when the D&G brigade invaded. I got so sick and tired of every new thread getting hijacked with sad sack doomsayers predicting the world was coming to an end etc. I tune in now and again but I think you will find that this is my first post since January. It just got too hard when all the doomers wanted to debate all the time and, when proved wrong, started a new thread and worded it differently.
Have fun, I am.

JIM
 
I agree... the constant to-ing and fro-ing about whether the world will end and what interest rates will do next becomes tedious.
 
I don't know about doing nothing - I was gazumped last week on a sweet $400k deal. Took me completely by surprise. It was like 2007 all over again.
 
here is some good news

PORTFOLIO POINT: House prices are softening now, but the supply-demand imbalance means the uptrend will resume.


What does the future hold for house prices? Like any other asset, house prices are determined by two key factors: demand and supply. Accordingly, plotting the future of house prices means forecasting the course of demand and supply. One of the critical – and really unforgivable – mistakes the doomsayers make is in trying to value Australian residential property using a model that only includes demand-side factors, particularly by using the ratio of Australian house prices to household incomes. Sometimes you also see an analyst use an affordability measure, such as the share of household disposable income that is being spent on servicing mortgage repayments, used to value current prices.

There are many flaws with these methods. The first is that incomes and interest rates are “demand-side” factors. That is, this analysis takes no account of housing supply, which is the other key variable that determines prices. It is akin to asking a commodities trader to forecast oil prices by only using demand-side variables, such as the production of new cars, but taking no account of the supply of oil. We know, of course, that the value of intrinsically scarce goods such as houses and oil is crucially influenced by their supply.

Anthony Richards, the Reserve Bank’s head of economics analysis, recently acknowledged this point, noting: “We must recognise that housing prices are not set exogenously, but reflect the interaction of demand and supply … This suggests that the run-up in real housing prices may not be fully explained by demand-side factors and that supply-side ones – especially policies on land usage – may also have played a role.”

The second problem with these demand-side measures is that there has never been any historically stable relationship between house prices and incomes, or house prices and measures of affordability; precisely because there are other factors (such as supply) that also play a critical role.

To take one example of this: consider some recent Reserve Bank analysis that flips the whole affordability debate on its head. The bank asked the question: “How has the typical first-time buyer (aged 25–39) fared between 1982 and 2007.” The bank’s analysis measured the average household’s income that was left over after paying off a 90% home loan. It can seen from the chart below that based on the Reserve Bank’s affordability measure, many Australian households in 2007 have – in contrast to what some would have you believe – more disposable income after paying off their home loan than at any other time in recorded history! (Note these figures only go to 2007, before the recent run of interest rate rises.)

In a similar vein, there is much hyperbole in the media about the level of mortgage rates. Yet inflation-adjusted interest rates in Australia are actually quite low by historical standards and certainly less than they were in the late 1980s or mid-1990s (see chart).


nFigure 1: RBA affordability measure
Real gross household income after loan repayments


Source: RBA


nFigure 2: Real interest rates


Source: Rismark International, ABS, RP Data


One final issue is the misleading tendency to compare house price/income ratios across countries. There are, however, fundamental differences between most countries’ property markets that result in divergences in their relative performance. That is, there is no reason to believe house price/income ratios should be constant across nations.

These differences include:
Their tax treatment of housing (in the US, for example, capital gains tax is levied on owner-occupied housing while mortgage interest repayments are tax deductible; neither applies to Australia).
The size of their public housing markets (the public housing market share in the UK is far larger than Australia, which in turn has a much bigger private rental market).
Their rates of home ownership (54% in the Netherlands, 42% in Germany, and 35% in Switzerland, but about 70% in Australia).
The responsiveness of housing supply to changes in demand (low in heavily supply-constrained countries such as Australia and the UK, but higher in many countries such as the US, which has excess supply).
The share of the nation’s population living in its largest cities (very high in Australia but lower in the US, UK, Russia, Japan, India, Germany and China).

So how to determine the underlying course of demand and supply. Thankfully, a number of leading economists and government agencies, such as the Commonwealth Treasury, have recently produced detailed forecasts for both these variables.

Although building approvals in Australia have been plummeting, and housing starts are running at only about 145,000 a year, Treasury projects that Australia’s demand for housing will rise to well over 200,000 homes a year by 2010 driven (in order of importance) by record immigration, natural population growth, and a decline in the number of persons per household. In contrast, Treasury is forecasting that the supply of new homes will be about 150,000–160,000, leading to a major demand-supply imbalance.

Treasury’s analysis is consistent with recent forecasts by ANZ Bank, which is predicting the “mother of all housing booms” (see chart). Like the Treasury, ANZ believe that housing demand will rise to about 200,000 homes a year in 2010, while starts will fall to less than 140,000 properties.


nFigure 3: ANZ Bank, forecast housing demand less supply


Source: economics@ANZ


ANZ’s economists point out that unlike previous construction cycles, where the downturn was characterised by a lot of “spare capacity”, Australia’s building industry looks like it is already suffering from capacity constraints (measured by volume of work still to be done) due to labour and materials shortages.

The supply-side situation has got so bad in NSW, Australia’s biggest housing market, that building approvals for private houses are at a 44-year low despite the state’s population more than doubling in that time.

Based on their published research, other forecasters such as BIS Shrapnel, St. George and CommSec have similar positions on the long-term prospects for house prices.

The bottom line is that any objective analysis of independent forecasts of housing demand and supply will lead to the conclusion that the Australian residential property market is likely to deliver strong capital gains over the medium to long term.



Chirstopher Joye is chief executive of Rismark International, a quantitative real estate funds management business. Graphs supplied by RP Data .
 
Hi, Long88, fantastic post. Exactly the point that D&G missed. There were a few articles detailing what you've so thoughtfully given us.

Note the people who wrote 'I think' ...

End of last year, I'd suggested that houses weren't to be 'cheap' any more because the COST OF BUILDING is a key determinant of price. Steel, diesel, cement, bricks, transport all skyrocketed. LABOUR, don't even talk about it.

So this last huge increase in house prices was driven by SUPPLY. I was building as the prices went up. Builders are constrained by law. They can't increase price wily nily. They told me they could only increase 10% every year.

I reiterate, sick & tired of D&Gs who ignore reality, for house prices to crash [I acknowledge they can, I sold 4 houses in case they do], 2 things must happen.

1) A big decrease in building & land costs.
2) People stop living in houses.

Note: even in rural areas, land may cost nothing [Wudina $1.00 for a house block]. A house will still cost $180000 to finish. If you read the fine print, the price of a new house in Wudina is actually $265000.

Anyone here wants to move to Wudina?

Here is an anecdote. A 'friend', husband/wife, 2 kids + grandchild are buying a house in Salisbury. Income, Centrelink. Govt gives them almost $25000, they pay $220000

Think they can afford the mortgage? Of course they can't but then they also can't afford the rent. It was $195 pw 2 years ago, it's now close to $300 pw

What's more interesting is you look beyond the present: the son with girlfriend is 24 years old. The daughter goes to Uni next year. Fast forward 5 years. You need 2 more houses.

Enough said.
KY
 
I still tune in to the forum but don't post a lot as I too got sick of the constant negativity from the D&Gs. I miss Alexlee whose posts always made me think.
 
hi all
well for me I am waiting to see the change in the banking enviroment.
as the icbc is here and so is central bank of china.
mega icbc has been here for about 12 months and starting to make a dent and bred is off shore having a good look.
what does this mean
well it means that commercial funding is in for a rocket and hopefully I can be sat in a front seat well thats the plan.
I think that alot of people are very busy as there is alot in the market that is very good buying.
the issue is not the product at this stage its the lenders.
and getting lending
when you want as little in the deal and they want the most
the harder the lender the longer the time so the less time to post.
well thats me anyway.
I am busier now then ever.
just rushing out the door and have a 10,11,1.30 ,2.30 and 4 meeting today all finance and all soups
so its getting worse for some and better for others but thats investing.
hope everyone well.
sorry if the ..., ad,, are not there
 
To take one example of this: consider some recent Reserve Bank analysis that flips the whole affordability debate on its head. The bank asked the question: “How has the typical first-time buyer (aged 25–39) fared between 1982 and 2007.” The bank’s analysis measured the average household’s income that was left over after paying off a 90% home loan. It can seen from the chart below that based on the Reserve Bank’s affordability measure, many Australian households in 2007 have – in contrast to what some would have you believe – more disposable income after paying off their home loan than at any other time in recorded history! (Note these figures only go to 2007, before the recent run of interest rate rises.)

Excellent post Long88, well said. Although the facts show that people can afford houses just fine, the D&Gers seem to think that current house prices are inherently 'unfair' and must magically fall to make them affordable, despite the underlying supply and demand equation.
 
my take

Personally i feel this forum has gone from one where people with similar views shared ideas, concepts, experiences etc to one where people argue their views against those (D&G) who have a diametrically opposed views.

Healthy debate is fine however its like arguing over religion or politics, reason and logic is first to go and then deep rooted belief kicks in turning any debate into a shouting match.

This is not to say there are still some very good posts but far and few between.

Further more there are countless posts which are simply repeats of topics discussed way too many times. Perhaps a solution would be to include a "category" on each post (aside from the forum) e.g. "renovation","Sydney",inclusions","renting" in order to make searching easier and still not have to have a highly segmented forum structure which kills off many forums as no one knows where to post and end up giving up.

Final reason is because unfortunately too many of the people actually doing well in investing don't have the time to come on and post. In addition those like myself there are commercial reasons to why I cannot go into detail regarding my own experiences and always seem to have to balance my responses as too not offend anyone out there who may later google my name and read my posts. - I know the solution for this one, I should have put a moniker name rather than tcocaro - oh well. Also my views can be seen as biased as a developer so sometimes i feel keeping them to myself is better than have some ignoramus point this out to me, basically the "of course you would say that your a developer" is wearing thin.

I know I already said Finally so ill say "one last point" instead and that is, sentiment. Whether you like to admit it or not, agree with D&G predictions or not, sentiment about investing, the economy and particular property is low and people cant help but feel down and as a result not in the mood to talk about it.
 
Time is better spent elsewhere on more productive ventures like property research and business.

I continue to read/post in the interesting threads, but they are few and far between these days. So many D&G threads which are just repetitive and boring. No one will ever change their mind so why waste your time with 8 pages worth of arguments? Much more productive ways to spend your time.

Will be interesting to see those threads in 2yrs time and see how little the D&G'ers have actually achieved by then. Although I'm sure they'll find plenty of stats to vindicate themselves for their lack of action now and make them feel better - they're good at that. Assuming of course they have the guts to stick around under the same name at that time. :rolleyes:
 
yep

No one will ever change their mind so why waste your time with 8 pages worth of arguments?

No need for 8 pages, simply ask the following to a D&G.

"Do you believe in the statement that people investing in property can make and loose money in the best of times and conversely make and loose money in the worst of times?"

The answer would be "yes".

Then ask

"where should I invest"

The answer would be "I wouldn't now Ill wait..."

Then you would remind them of question #1...

Annoyance would kick in, screaming, incoherent crap etc etc then close internet explorer :)
 
I'm trying not to let the d and g ruin things for me. I have decided that I will stay on this forum and post when I can (work family and other committments permitting) - which has never been as often as some others but its enough for me. I have decided to remain committed to real estate as the method that WILL make me financially independent. I listen to the d and g because I don't want to get caught with my pants down. I stop listening when they get silly. I remind myself that under all the economics is one simple equation. Supply and Demand. Things are getting interesting.
 
I suspect that it is in part the time in the cycle.

For many setting up a buffer and riding out the storm is the best bet. So I guess financing has become a reasonably hot topic. Also whether LOE is possible / risky given credit crunches do happen.

From the Melbourne monthly meetings it seems that most are selling rather than buying and I guess there is less discussion around selling.

I am at the tail end of tidying up my portfolio and I will pretty much put it in the sit and forget tray for the next year or so. Given that I am sure that my interests will turn elsewhere and I will be less here. D & G poster have had nil effect upon me. Sometimes they can be thought provoking and I think we can be rightly accused of living in a rose coloured bubble some times.

Perhaps those that think the topics are not interesting enough could start their own topics?
 
hi all
well for me I am waiting to see the change in the banking enviroment.
as the icbc is here and so is central bank of china.
mega icbc has been here for about 12 months and starting to make a dent and bred is off shore having a good look.
what does this mean
well it means that commercial funding is in for a rocket and hopefully I can be sat in a front seat well thats the plan.
Grossreal,the 0ther way to look at things is,with Bank of China and several other new players that are about to take on the Australian Banking system,they all have endless amounts of cash TO BURN ALL TAKERS weather it be the euro
or the green$$back as backup,who's to say within 3 years time they will
control over 49% of the banking system as we know it today in AUSTRALIA, this is the time in Australian Banking history when we need a strong BALANCED GOVERNMENT,not someone who in only interested in
working families, the price of petrol and what a dozen eggs costs at the
checkout..willair..
wilair..IMHO..
 
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I can't for the life of me think why someone would want a property and investing forum where everyone was only interested in good news and boom times and property never drops.

So many conflicting arguments why things will be good or bad.

I don't pay too much attention to the GHPC bears, Personally I'm thankfull for the resident bears on here. Especially Sunfish and Evand. Made me get rid of my share debt in November. Most of the bears put up good arguments. It's all good.

See ya's.
 
Long88 - great post, are you able to post the links to the articles you quoted. I would like to read more.


Cheers,

Martyn
 
Thanks TC, :) Glad to put a little balance into proceedings.

I cant understand why you guys complain about the D&Gers on here. It might not be what you like to read but it will definitely make you a better investor.

In business the best feedback you can get is negative feedback. For obvious reasons.

If you are secure in your investing decisions then why worry about the D&Gers. Do they niggle a small insecurity in the back of your mind that you might be wrong after all? If not, whats the problem (beside the personal stuff)

A forum is for debate by definition. Not for a back slapping, mutual admiration society. That achieves squat except feeling warm & fuzzy inside for maybe making the wrong decisions.

Embrace questioning and challenge. From yourself and from others. It might be what you need to hear rather than what you want to hear and will make you a better investor and a better person in the long run.

I can't for the life of me think why someone would want a property and investing forum where everyone was only interested in good news and boom times and property never drops.

So many conflicting arguments why things will be good or bad.

I don't pay too much attention to the GHPC bears, Personally I'm thankfull for the resident bears on here. Especially Sunfish and Evand. Made me get rid of my share debt in November. Most of the bears put up good arguments. It's all good.

See ya's.
 
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