Good Intentions - Bad Consequences

So many times I read or hear about policies to fix certain economic problems. For instance people not saving for their retirement or the difficulty of buying a home.

The more I think about it, the more I conclude that the suggested solutions do more harm than good. It's like tackling a scorpion or crustacean; you think you've doing good by grabbing its head, but its pincers swing back and bite you!

Two recent examples.

1. Income tax Cuts. Tues night Paul Clitheroe with Tony Delroy on ABC Radio. They were talking about a proposal to cut the top marginal income tax rate to 30%. Clitheroe was (rightly) lukewarm about it.

Several callers were in favour of tax cuts, claiming that the current taxes were so high that they couldn't afford to save. They say the government should be helping them save by cutting taxes.

I say WHAT ROT! If people currently spend 100-105% of their income, then there's no reason to expect that they'd behave any differently if they get a bit more through a tax cut.

I am willing to bet almost anything that big tax cuts will simply fuel another consumer spending boom.

This will suck in imports, put pressure on our trade position, fuel consumer debt and probably lead to interest rate hikes.

So we go from nice tax cuts (albeit only for a minority) to interest rate hikes which hurt businesses, investors and homebuyers (of all income groups).

2. Access to super to buy a home. This is a fairly populist policy that people often talk about as being 'A Good Thing'. For example, Family First advocate it http://webdiary.smh.com.au/archives/margo_kingston/000387.html and no doubt others as well.

The only effect I can see this have is to inflate house prices, similar to government first homebuyer grants.

Let's say people had an average of $20k from super to put towards a deposit. If they go for a conservative 80% LVR, they can afford a bouse worth $100k more. If 90% LVR, then it's $200k more.

And history shows that if people can afford to spend more on a home, then they will, and prices will skyrocket, as people with no savings enter the market, and others can afford to pay more.

Also because of compounding, removing $20k from a 30 year's super account at the age of 30 is a much bigger loss at the age of 60. Sure they'll have a home, but their portfolio will be unbalanced (too heavily weighted to the family home). Also because people using their super may have bought in a hot market, capital gain on their PPOR will have been less than if they'd saved up and bought at another time when the market wasn't flooded with new buyers.

People with generous super (notably public servants and highly paid private sector workers) may appear to be at an advantage to the casual or self-employed worker with little or no super.

However in the end all buyers will be worse off and sellers will be the main beneficiary. Measures intended to improve affordability often reduce it and benefit the sellers most of all. And because homeowners (on average) are wealthier than renters (on average) a further transfer to sellers is regressive and exacerbates inequality.

My theme is that very often measures to help one group often have the opposite effect.

What would you want to do if you REALLY wanted to improve home affordability for first buyers?

You'd subsidise renters!

For instance you could:

- Increase rental subsidies (particularly for families of first homebuying age)
- Put a capital gains tax on the family home (to make home ownership less attractive but property investing relatively more attractive)

And if you wanted to make renting more affordable?

You'd subsidise buyers!

For instance:
- $7000 Government homebuyer grant to encourage tenants to buy
- Easy terms for housing commission tenants to buy
- Allow super to be used to buy first home
- Release more land

One unsung benefit of the last 10 years has been reasonable rents. No one's talked about this, but when rents were high, there were big problems, as there were around 1987.

Renters as well as homesellers have benefited from current economic conditions.

So have investors who bought more than 5 years ago (less in smaller cities).

First homebuyers have been the big losers, hence the emphasis on 'how can we help them'. But as I've discussed above, often well-meaning attempts to do so may have unforseen perverse effects.

Regards, Peter
 
Spiderman said:
I am willing to bet almost anything that big tax cuts will simply fuel another consumer spending boom.

This will suck in imports, put pressure on our trade position, fuel consumer debt and probably lead to interest rate hikes.

So we go from nice tax cuts (albeit only for a minority) to interest rate hikes which hurt businesses, investors and homebuyers (of all income groups).

No. Look at Hong Kong..

Relatively low interest rate (around 5% atm?), and very cheap tax rates (16% flat salaries tax).
 
I would guess that i pay alot more tax than you do Peter.
Do I have a bigger impact on the roads, oh maybe I have two cars and one, heaven forbid, is a 4WD.
What is my drain on the health system? Nothing, both healthy with top cover private insurance, cant even remeber the last time I was visiting a doctor ( apart from travel shots).
What is my drain on the ambulance system or the fire brigade, hmmmm nothing again.
What is my drain on the welfare system ? Nothing never recieved a hand out in my life, nor has my wife.
What is my drain on the education system, ? Nothing again, no kids and no Uni education for myself or my wife.
Yet I pay 49 cents tax on very nearly every dollar I earn as does my wife.
Yeah, thats obviously fair.
Want do you want to do to be fair ????
Tax us fairly...
AB
 
np2003 said:
No. Look at Hong Kong..

Relatively low interest rate (around 5% atm?), and very cheap tax rates (16% flat salaries tax).

np2003,

Have you ever been to Hong Kong?

Singapore and Malaysia have even lower income tax rates, perhaps you might like to check their road, police, and medical systems. Ever called the Police in Kuala Lumpur? Perhaps had a car break down in Victoria, Hong Kong?

More often than not, you get what you pay for...

Jamie.
 
so what? if you want all those luxuries go live in a retirement village.

Jamie said:
np2003,

Have you ever been to Hong Kong?

Singapore and Malaysia have even lower income tax rates, perhaps you might like to check their road, police, and medical systems. Ever called the Police in Kuala Lumpur? Perhaps had a car break down in Victoria, Hong Kong?

More often than not, you get what you pay for...

Jamie.
 
Hang on now...

Jamie said:
np2003,

Have you ever been to Hong Kong?

Singapore and Malaysia have even lower income tax rates, perhaps you might like to check their road, police, and medical systems. Ever called the Police in Kuala Lumpur? Perhaps had a car break down in Victoria, Hong Kong?

More often than not, you get what you pay for...

Jamie.


Jamie,

you really can't compare apples to oranges..... they taste different.....

Why are taxes lower in SG or HK ?? well, are they really ??? It's just that the salaries taxes are lower..... but you end up paying A HEAP more in indirect taxes in both places.... I know, coz I have lived in both......

Salaries tax in Both HK & Singapore are not flat rate..... There are also, next to NO decuctions for anything.... Ever tried owning a car in Asia ?? Would you like a drive in my $100,000 hyundai MPV ?? The same one you can buy for 30k in Australia ???

ALSO, one BIG point of difference here, is that in both cases they are small in geographical size, hence the infrastructure here is a lot less... a lot less to maintain......

In all honesty, the BIG difference between, HK & SG and say, Australia, is the welfare system..... this is also a cultural thing..... Family is very important in Asia, so, if you are jobless, usually, family will take care of you, till you get back on your feet.....

In Australia, however, we have subsidies for just about everything under the sun......

Which system is better ?? I have no idea..... but, they are both based on different cultural backgrounds.....

Oh, and, in Hong Kong, Singapore, or KL, Police are all over the place.... if you need on.... especially in HK & SG.....

Victoria, Hong Kong...... doesn't exist I'm afraid.... Do you mean Victoria Peak ?? Place has cops all over it... because of all the diplomats who stay there....... :eek:

There are many ways to tax people, without making it so obvious..... Perhaps, the only way things will get better in Australia, would be to reduce the welfare allowances, and change to a user pays system ?? BUT, many people would be then be in a VERY bad position..... Can't see it ever happening...... who's gonna vote for that ????????

Lets put this in simple terms.... if say the country takes 100 billion per year to run, and, by reducing the top taxe rate to 30%, and suddenly income is now only 75Billion per year..... you now need to cut 25 billion in spending.....

SO.... What program do you cancel or reduce ???? Defence ? Welfare ? Education ?? Infrastructure ?? others ???
 
Hi All

Whilst I agree many economic theory can be a failure in practise I support changes to our tax rates.

WHY...

TAX THREASHOLD
How can the Gov say that at around $6k you can afford to pay tax? Why not the minium wage level? The cost is taking money from the poor only to pay it back as welfare makes no sense.

Also

SUPER TAX
No 15c tax on super would encourage more to contribute and leave more to retire with.

And for those who think Super is a rip-off simply use a non-profit supplier like C-BUS, REST, etc.. I do and pay a grand total of $1 a week in fee for a return of last year at 12.5% p.a.

That's $1 on whether you have $1000 to $100,000 because as they say, it costs no more to manage a lot than a little. The paperwork is still the same.

Peter 147
 
Changing a tax rate has a greater effect on taxation than having a sustained low or high tax rate.

If we reduced our rates significantly there would be a huge upsurge in spending. It would then level off over time.

I reckon removing taxes on super is well worthwhile though.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Aceyducey said:
Changing a tax rate has a greater effect on taxation than having a sustained low or high tax rate.

If we reduced our rates significantly there would be a huge upsurge in spending. It would then level off over time.

Agreed. Though the extra consumer debt that such spending encouraged won't be temporary. Until paid, it will reduce those people's long-term living standards and thus consumer spending/demand.

Aceyducey said:
I reckon removing taxes on super is well worthwhile though.
Aceyducey

Compulsory super is basically an admission that most people can't be trusted to save for their future without coercion.

Given the huge benefits of saving/investing (incl compounding, ability to use leverge and greater freedom of choice) and that these benefits would remain even if there were no tax breaks, negative gearing or dividend imputation, I tend to be wary of tax breaks on things like super.

Giving super even more generous tax treatment basically transfers power/prestige/privileges to the fund managers and super companies (assuming most people won't use a SMSF).

Also I doubt that the overall effect of lower super tax would even be a flat percentage gain across all income groups. They'd most likely be regressive, with those on higher incomes (who should be saving 10-30% of their incomes anyway) disproportionately benefiting.

A super co-contribution (like we already have) would even things up a bit at the lower end and makes the overall impact a bit flatter. However there is a risk (as with many tax and welfare things) that there could be a big hole in the middle income levels.

It seems governments try to help people through two seperate systems - social security payments and tax breaks. At the bottom end (especially for families) it's Centrelink or other payments, whereas at the higher income levels it's tax breaks.

And where these two regimes collide in the middle produces all sorts of perverse and interesting effects. For instance if you have investments, the Social Security man taketh, whereas the Taxman giveth.

Ideas such as extending direct payments to all income groups, or negative income taxes for lower earners might make things simpler and fairer across all income groups.

But like all financial incentives, one has to ask whether money actually change behaviour (beneficiaries will always say it does!) or is a portion wasted because people would be saving anyway with or without the bribe from a favourable tax break.

Regards, Peter
 
No tax on super means more funds for Super managers to play with.

This means more investments into companies & Venture Finance, which helps stimulate the economy & stock market :)

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Spiderman

Whilst I acknowledge some people will waste opportunities with extra cash from tax savings, is it not a fundamental good, to offer choice?

You state:

Funds Managers are not to be trusted. I agree.

But is not the solution to option of:
Not for Profits Funds (C Bus, REST, etc..) or
SMSF for those who wish?.​

The Average Joe is not to be trusted and they will waste the tax savings you say..

But again is not the solution a higher GST?

That what if I choose to spend on consumerables I hand it back and if I pay of my home loan I pocket the savings. remember essentials such as raw food are GST free.​

Keep it simple.

When the Gov lowered Company Tax Rates to 30% it actually increased the level of tax because more chose to show a profit than a loss.

There is many things that could be done.

For example: No tax for up to say $20k for working adults and remove the need for tax returns for this amount.

That alone would free up a massive amount of public servants from minor tax work.

Encourage those working part time to stick with it increasing the level of employees able and willing to contribute to the economy.

It would directly help families with part time mum and dad. Encourage families to have children.

Help control the cost of labour. Improve customer services over the peak period of lunch.


The list goes on...

Sure we would have to raise the GST but the GST is a choice decision. I chose to buy lunch I pay GST. I take lunch it is GST free. I buy a new TV I pay GST, I stick with my old one I pay no GST.

The GST needs to be used effectively to get rid of the inefficient state taxes, SD, levy etc..

And the more simple it is the harder it is to be avoided. Every night in the Inner City thousands pay GST on dinner out. A few might get away with a deduction re business or cash may go black but the majority pay the tax.

Pete 147
 
Spiderman said:
Compulsory super is basically an admission that most people can't be trusted to save for their future without coercion.



Until quite recently people have not had to save for their future.

My parents generation (and those who came before them) made do on the Aged Pension.

While there is some truth in the statement that without coercion (actually this goes beyond coercion) that people cannot be trusted to save for their future, at least two other factors also have to be considered:

- the recognition that with an increasingly ageing population relative to a declining taxpayer base, measures where needed to protect the federal budget (private health insurance is another).

- politicians (and bureaucrats) love having more $$$ to spend. The more people who have superannuation - the less people who need the pension - and the more $$ is left in the budget.


In the last 20 years or so the Commonwealth has increasingly excused itself from several areas where it was previously either the sole, or a significant, funder.

- Aged Pensions > superannuation

- Health > greater emphasis on private health insurance

- Higher education > HECS and Full-Fees, etc


I do not detect any corresponding fall in our tax liabilities to compensate for this.

MB
 
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Pitt St said:
In the last 20 years or so the Commonwealth has increasingly excused itself from several areas where it was previously either the sole, or a significant, funder.

- Aged Pensions > superannuation

- Health > greater emphasis on private health insurance

- Higher education > HECS and Full-Fees, etc


I do not detect any corresponding fall in our tax liabilities to compensate for this.

MB

There was a very interesting discussion between Michael Keating (former head Dept PM&C) and Terry Lane on Sunday's 'The National Interest' program.

Keating pointed out that:

1. Tax as a percentage of GDP was at or near record highs
2. Govt expenditure as a proportion of GDP was at or near record highs
3. Social services as a proportion of Fed govt expenditure was a record high (areas like Defence had seen relative declines)
4. Despite 1. above, Australia is relatively low-taxed, amongst the OECD only US and Japan were lower.
5. Australian public sector debt is low compared to other countries.

On the three shifts one by one:

Age pension. There had been some sort of assets test until it was abolished by the Whitlam govt. The assets test was very severe (even accounting for inflation), the level of pension paid was lower compared to average wages than today and there appeared to be fewer concessions. (Reference: Confessions of a Failed Finance Minister, Peter Walsh).

Though there is rhetoric about a shift to self-reliance through compulsory super and the like (IIRC promoted by the ACTU's Bill Kelty & Paul Keating) our savings rate continues to decline and I believe it's negative now. Right at the moment it's the government that's the real saver, by continually running budget surpluses.

Health. Greater emphasis on private health insurance. Up until 1984 it was common for working people to have private health insurance and for people on benefits to be paid for by the govt. Then Medicare was introduced as a universal scheme. It's mainly been the Howard govt that has tried to shift the emphasis to private health from the late 90s.

HECS and full fees. Agreed. Though again it's a retreat from the 'free' system that existed during the 1970-80s high point of Australian social democracy. From subsidised scholarships for brightish kids (late 50s to early 70s) to free education from 1974-1989 approx, HECS from there on and then 'buying' places. Nevertheless the participation rate in higher education has increased.

From a wealth/savings point of view this is a double edged sword - tertiary educated people are generally paid more but they start work later so there's fewer years for compound interest to do it's stuff.

Despite all the changes, M Keating's analysis was the govt is taxing more and doing more than it's ever done before. So we might not have gone as far along the 'user pays' path as others have claimed.

Regards, Peter
 
Spiderman said:
Compulsory super is basically an admission that most people can't be trusted to save for their future without coercion.
Actually, thinking on this a little more.

Complusory super ISN'T an admission that people can't be trusted to save for their future without coercion.

Over the past couple of generations we've trained people to believe that the government would look after them through pensions.

People treated taxes as their way of saving for the future.

The introduction of compulsory super is the admission by the government that relying on government pensions is a ponzi game that comes crashing down when we have too many retirees.

It's the start of the process of weaning people back off relying on government pensions to relying on personal savings & family support.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
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