Hang on to your hats

FTSE currently up 9.4% and climbing, with the US looking to open big as well.

HBOS and Lloyds TSB up about 37% each (RBS still down though for some reason).

Good luck to holders of bank stocks come Monday. Hope the joy reaches these shores (however short a time it might last).

GP
 

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yeah banks did very well but others didnt.
It seems like people are not ready to return to the stock markets yet

cheers
 
Maybe it really was all those evil shorters pushing the bank stocks down... :rolleyes:

If this sort of volatility keeps up, they'll be moving the stock market to Six Flags Magic Mountain soon.

GP

(that's a rollercoaster park, for those who don't know)
 
Thats why i have stuck to my guns about dollar averaging. I will grant that dollar averaging into a stock that you have bought for speculative reasons or that you've just bought cause some broker recomended it is *%&* dangerous.

But if you really take the time to analysise a company, especially its LONG TERM fundamentals, then the lower the shares the cheaper the underlying company.

Secondly one the the possible benefits of short selling is the driving of share prices below the normal rate that they should trade at even accounting for increased risk. For example company 'A' was trading at $5. Under a 'normal bear market' where the holders of the stock get scared and sell out the price would drop to $4. However with short selling exacerbating the problem the price drops to $3.

Thus so long as you can wear the volatility and not suffer any margin calls, by buying at $3 you are actually profiting from short sellers rather than being a victim.
 
Thats why i have stuck to my guns about dollar averaging. I will grant that dollar averaging into a stock that you have bought for speculative reasons or that you've just bought cause some broker recomended it is *%&* dangerous.

But if you really take the time to analysise a company, especially its LONG TERM fundamentals, then the lower the shares the cheaper the underlying company.

glad you clarified - a lot of people don't understand this point and is something i am dead-set against. fundamentals make a good stock, if you're holding long term then dlooar cost avg is GOOD. if you bought stock on a tip, are losing, and dollar cost avg it out because daddy does it, then you are a nutter and should try the casino instead.

Thus so long as you can wear the volatility and not suffer any margin calls, by buying at $3 you are actually profiting from short sellers rather than being a victim.

my point in waiting. i haven't touched the market since my Centro short when it just dipped below $1. that to me was about the total end of rationality in the ASX - no way was centro worth $1 with it reportings. why did i pull out of the market? i knew the shorters would be licking their chops, i traded with them and left it at that. no point buying regardless of the reduced prices and PEs and increasing dividends if you'r going to get sold down by a massive conglomerate or hedge fund.

it's too hard to pick a good short now on stock, indexes are a little easier at present. trying to stay in long term on a short position opens you up to paying dividends and being closed out for no reason. a lot of people think you can just chuck a dart at the finaincials sector and make money by shorting, but the trouble is when you're leveraged with a CFD it only needs to move 3%-4% against you and you're at your stop. considering Wachovia gapped up almost 50% the other day, you'd have owed your margin plus another 4x your margin - not fun.
 
glad you clarified - a lot of people don't understand this point and is something i am dead-set against. fundamentals make a good stock, if you're holding long term then dlooar cost avg is GOOD. if you bought stock on a tip, are losing, and dollar cost avg it out because daddy does it, then you are a nutter and should try the casino instead.



my point in waiting. i haven't touched the market since my Centro short when it just dipped below $1. that to me was about the total end of rationality in the ASX - no way was centro worth $1 with it reportings. why did i pull out of the market? i knew the shorters would be licking their chops, i traded with them and left it at that. no point buying regardless of the reduced prices and PEs and increasing dividends if you'r going to get sold down by a massive conglomerate or hedge fund.

it's too hard to pick a good short now on stock, indexes are a little easier at present. trying to stay in long term on a short position opens you up to paying dividends and being closed out for no reason. a lot of people think you can just chuck a dart at the finaincials sector and make money by shorting, but the trouble is when you're leveraged with a CFD it only needs to move 3%-4% against you and you're at your stop. considering Wachovia gapped up almost 50% the other day, you'd have owed your margin plus another 4x your margin - not fun.

Im quite a simple investor, apart from margin lending, i dont use any sophisticated investment strategies, such as options righting, CFD's, futures markets etc. The reason being is that i feel there are alot of smart cookies out their who are much smarter than me at this game.

I use very simple 'insurance' technicques such as
1)limiting the size of any one stock in my portfolio to 10% of the total size of the portfolio, and even then i must be pretty dammed confident on the long term prospects of the company.
2)focusing on companies that have low debt
3)focusing on companies that have great barriers to entry
4)focusing on companies that have a proven historical results, ie avoiding any concept stocks no matter how good their story sounds.


On a longer term horizon (5yrs+) i dont need to be specifically right (with the risk of being specifically wrong). I dont bother with stop losses because i feel the market overall is cheap. I think for investors (as opposed to traders) stop losses are best used when the market has gone through a long period of bullishness. Once the market turns and moves into its next bullish phase i will gradually take money off the table because at this point in time share prices should be trending above their long term intrinsic values.
 
i think i could learn a fair bit off you chilliaa re: long term buy'n'hold.

there are plenty of smart folk out there using derivatives, and as good that they are for profit generation, they are also very good for profit erosion. so you MUST employ stops.
 
Im quite a simple investor, apart from margin lending, i dont use any sophisticated investment strategies, such as options righting, CFD's, futures markets etc. The reason being is that i feel there are alot of smart cookies out their who are much smarter than me at this game.

I haven't even started margin lending yet. :D
 
i think i could learn a fair bit off you chilliaa re: long term buy'n'hold.

there are plenty of smart folk out there using derivatives, and as good that they are for profit generation, they are also very good for profit erosion. so you MUST employ stops.

The problem with trading strategies is that with competition their 'benefits' get eroded as they become more popular. Just as with a business that make excessive profits face increased competition from new entrants.
Did you know that the ORIGINAL tranches of morgage securitisation products and CFD's were INCREDIBLY profitable and quite safe. The marginalisation in their profitability and increased risk came from competition.

The usage of stops for investment purposes (as opposed to trading) is very good in theory and with hindsight. The problem is:
1) they incur transaction costs
2) they result in a crystalisation of a loss. If you were confident in buying a stock at a higher price, then a lower price should be better value.
3) at which point do you buy back after the stop loss? at a 10% discount to the exited stop? 20%? what happens if the price goes up after the loss, you will have lost your ownership in that company.

Dont confuse stop losses with exiting a position because of a structural change in a company or because there is an intrinsic weakness in a company that you didnt identify when you purchased the share.

Pride and stuborness can cost you a lot of money. The share market in the short term is a popularity contest, but in the long term its more of a weighing machine. Eventually wealth return will be proved satisfactory or otherwise by your ability to invest in the right companies at the right price, not because other people agreed with you.

Be very careful of the quacking duck syndrome.
 
glad you clarified - a lot of people don't understand this point and is something i am dead-set against. fundamentals make a good stock, if you're holding long term then dlooar cost avg is GOOD. if you bought stock on a tip, are losing, and dollar cost avg it out because daddy does it, then you are a nutter and should try the casino instead.



my point in waiting. i haven't touched the market since my Centro short when it just dipped below $1. that to me was about the total end of rationality in the ASX - no way was centro worth $1 with it reportings. why did i pull out of the market? i knew the shorters would be licking their chops, i traded with them and left it at that. no point buying regardless of the reduced prices and PEs and increasing dividends if you'r going to get sold down by a massive conglomerate or hedge fund.i also got burned on centro. Centro was my 2007 BnB. After the plumpit i bought it at $1.70 and chickened out the next day at 80c after realising that alough the $1.70 was only 40% odd of the stated net assets, i couldnt be sure how realiable their stated net asset value was. In 2008 i made the same mistake with BnB and exited after realising quite a big loss.

it's too hard to pick a good short now on stock, indexes are a little easier at present. trying to stay in long term on a short position opens you up to paying dividends and being closed out for no reason.I am not sure how to respond to this. Except to say that its very hard to try and blend being a trader with being an investor. The whole pyscological mindframe is different. Its for this reason that i bar myself from trading. I dont want to be distracted. a lot of people think you can just chuck a dart at the finaincials sector and make money by shorting, but the trouble is when you're leveraged with a CFD it only needs to move 3%-4% against you and you're at your stop. considering Wachovia gapped up almost 50% the other day, you'd have owed your margin plus another 4x your margin - not fun. Once again this is viewing it more from a traders perspective. Generally i am quite wearing of banking stocks because they are so complicated that there needs to be someone with much higher IQ than i posess to value them. For Australian banks, i invest in them more because of their unique global positions than because i really understand them. Their unqiue positions means that they operate as a mild form of oligopoly. In addition i look at four other lesser macro factors with regards to investing in australian banks: One: they are a more 'bland' than their overseas counterparts (country bumkings?) and thus never got caught up in all the exotic derivative products to the same extent as their overseas counterparties. Two: the residential property mania pretty much leveled out in 2003 (im not saying the market platued here, just that the mania died down), thus debtors as a whole have had time to build equity in their properties. Three RBA interest rates are quite high by world standards. Thus there is some 'fat' in them that can be released if the going gets tough, and yet still have an macro interest rate that assists in containing inflation. Four: Unlike many developed countries, the federal government doesnt have existing material debt levels. Thus if the going gets tough they can run some deficits to boost the economy without effecting their debt ratings.

However having said all this my portolio at present is only around 16% banks against a market average weighting of around 20%.

In regards to indexes for the majority of investors under normal economic conditions this should be the way to invest. Over the long term you will probably beat the MAJORITY of active investors.

However i have a fealing that over the next 5 years, under this period of global instability, this market will be characterised as a stock pickers market rather than a uniform uplift in the market as a whole. One of the big headaches with debt inspired crashes is that they are not quick in restoring themselves. This problem is not going to go away quickly. Once again i refer to the Asian economic crisis for the most recent example.
 
nice work - thanks for the post and kudos! i am also moving away from the trading mindset and becoming an investor - bar futures, god i can't get enough of that!

i use a few free fundemental analysers for US stocks, do you know of anything available to use for ASX stocks?

cheers for your insights.
 
nice work - thanks for the post and kudos! i am also moving away from the trading mindset and becoming an investor - bar futures, god i can't get enough of that!

i use a few free fundemental analysers for US stocks, do you know of anything available to use for ASX stocks?

cheers for your insights.

Yes the annual morningstar shareholder mannual of the top 500 asx stocks. Gives a great starting point with the most of important of all, 10yrs worth of basic accounting information. It costs about $100.
 
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