HELP: Advice and opinions URGENTLY needed.

Hi SS Investors,

I would love to have your feedback on my following predicament. Please take the time to read through, I have lost a bit of sleep lately wondering if I am doing the right thing.

I have found myself, to my regret but by my own doing, in a precarious predicament financially. As some of you know, I have recently had a baby and when he was only 6 weeks old, went back to work 2 days/week, travelling over an hour each way, to try and meet the shortfall on our IP mortgages. I also have a part-time job I fit in on weekends and a couple of hour in the week.

I have an absolutely fantastic PPOR with a huge 1BR fully Dual Oc approved flat attached that we rent out. I bought it for it's Capital Growth and even in the down turn of the NSW property market have made over 200k on it by small reno's. The street is the best in the suburb with unmatched waterviews. The neighboring properties have sold for over 1.1k and 1.6k respectively.

I have a fixed rate home loan for another 2 years.

I cannot refinance, as this loan was a Full Doc and we cannot go that path anymore. A LO Doc would see a massive jump in repayments and as we have already such a huge mortgage, I prefer not to go there.(Due to using home equity to invest.)

I consider that I have two options. The second option is preferable but probably unachieveable.

1. Put it on the market and pull out 400-450k to buy and renovate a much cheaper property.

2. Approach my neighbor who is high up in one of the big banks to go into a partnership with me and buy out half of my property.

My reasoning for approaching him:

a) He showed alot of interest in purchasing the property the other side of us for over 1.1mil but "didn't think it would sell so cheaply."

b) His over 1.5mil home is a holiday house, he has just bought outright the latest BMW that he had ordered 6 months before it was even in AUS, he is not short of a dollar.

d) We have spoken about the properties in this street which range from 1.1 mil to nearly 3mil depending on views and property. (Interestingly, land size seems to be of no consequence.) He is of the opinion, as are anyone that knows the area, that it has huge potential.

c) His family and ours get on extremely well and he and hubby are birds of a feather.


I would hope that he would partner with hubby and I in purchasing our property, in which we are prepared to offer him a rental income for.

The benefits to him:

a) I would be happy to settle at 50k under market val.
b) He has tenants that will continue to maintain and renovate.
c) He has the option of buying the house next door, easy to keep an eye on etc.
d) Huge potential for Capital Growth.
e) he will have a rental income that to majority investors would not meet criteria but I daresay he will not be too worried about that.
f) We can continue putting his garbage out and mowing his front lawn!:D

Now hubby is flaberghasted that I would consider selling the family home rather than our IP's but I see it as bad debt, alot of it, and I simply cannot bring myself to put our latest addition to the family into daycare to work Full-time. I would probably work close to 25 hours a week as it is. Needless to say there is a bit of tension at home right now.:eek:

I have had 2 IP's on the market for 3 months, have dropped them both by 10%, they are under market value and I cannot sell them without losing alot of money. If I sell our PPOR I have made money, and there is no Capital Gains. I could pick other IP's I have to put on the market, but again, I don't think I would have any chance at selling them without suffering a HUGE loss.

I see this plan of action as a better financial option. I got us into it, I have to get us out of it!

Am I biaised, in wanting to hold onto the property? Should I sell and be done with it. The idea of having so much money in the bank is SO tempting. A well needed holiday in Bali......new shoes......buy the kids some much needed new school uniforms.....we are really living on the bread line.

I appreciate anyone who has taken the time to read this.

Regards JO
 
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tough predicament.

i would say be thankful for the $450k in the bank and offer it up for sale to your neighbour.

go buy something else - cheaper - outright. although i have no idea of what you can get for $450k in a good area close to schools and big enough for a family in your area. you may find it easier to buy something around the $600k mark and just have a small mortgage.

either way, if you are losing sleep over it, then you probably already know the answer.
 
Yes its a bit of a bind you're in. The security of the family home is absolutely paramount to me. I don't take it lightly and its why i don't have a mortgage on it and also why i'm trying to get it solely in my wife's name.

Call me old fashioned but it was and is the foundation of our wealth and security and i treat it as such.

I would look at selling the IPs first but of course it depends on the size of the loss you'll be hit with and how big your loans are.. etc

You can always start again when yields are up a bit and finance is easier to get again.

You might have to consider the neighbor flatly refusing to buy your house. You possibly need an option 3 & 4.
 
Could you rent out your PPOR (house section) and move into one of your IPs?

Or even rent somewhere cheaper.

Turn your "bad debt" into "good debt"?

That way you keep your PPOR which you and your husband clearly love, and can move back in when things improve.

And sell one or two IPS, choose the ones costing you the most. If you take a capital loss it will be carried forward to wipe out a future capital gain. Unless of course they are all cash positive, in which case sell one or two anyway to free up some capital.

Good luck!
Marg
 
I am with Marg on this one. If you really love this house, and it has such a good position and potential for future growth, I would be moving to one of your own IPs, or better still rent out your own place and rent somewhere smaller and cheaper until your situation improves.
 
but the yield might not be as good in that situation - i think the issue is cashflow (unless you fill out an ITWV every few weeks).
 
Hi guys,

I appreciate all your feedback.

Marg,


I have looked at renting out our PPOR and would save about $750/month. Unfortunately this is just not enough, and heaven forbid we lost our tenant, we could not afford to pay rent and the mortgage. The house is in my name and the NG Loss would not account for much as we are both practically down to $0 on our TR's at the moment.

I have 2 properties on the market now. One is my highest and worst mortgage, the other is actually in a great spot and very reasonably priced. There are no buyers. Unless I want to take 100k off them!:eek:

The commercial IP is out of the question and totally worth holding onto. The other IP's would see us lose all our CG in this market to entry and exit fees.

The PPOR is CGT free, and has made us alot of money.

I am torn, Evan, between what you say and keeping the family home, after all, money means nothing at the end of the day - and doing what seems to be financially a better idea.

I am prepared for an outright 'NO' from the neighbor and know it's a long shot, but figure I have nothing to lose and alot to gain by asking.

I know it's gutsy but I will never know if I don't try it.

Regards JO
 
but the yield might not be as good in that situation - i think the issue is cashflow (unless you fill out an ITWV every few weeks).

Yes, The issue is Cashflow.

Our nearest IP is only 2BR! Hubby suggested it and I would not mind as we could renovate while in there. Plenty of room to add a bedroom but it would mean a 10yr old, an 8 yr old and a baby in one room.:eek:



Regards JO
 
I cant see a risk in asking the neighbor. He just says no and you were back where you started. Probably a bigger risk not asking him.

What you have to consider is him thinking 'whats in it for me?" Everyone does and you're going to have to make it a very attractive proposition for him to say yes. On the surface it doesnt look good enough but i dont know your complete offer to him.

It sounds like you have a great family home. I would sell what i needed to to save it (and keep 100% of it) rather than risk losing it.

In a few years your equity in your home will have grown and you can use it to build wealth from there as i have done with mine from time to time.

To me, anything else is not worth the risk/reward equation. But that's just me.
 
Honestly I don't like either of your options. I think there has to be a better way.

How much is our PPOR mortgage? Your non tax deductible debt.

Can you outline your ips in regards to loan repayments, value, equity out upon sale, rent etc. I feel like you are only giving us a corner of your situation and its not enough to make a well thought out decision.

How much are you short each month? How much would a decrease in interest rates say .5% improve the situation?

Don't cash in just for the pleasure of a holiday and a shopping trip!
 
Have you considered bringing in a partner on one of your IPs?

Reduction of debt, whilst it comes with a reduction in your assets, but you still retain control of your family home.
 
1. Put it on the market and pull out 400-450k to buy and renovate a much cheaper property.

On a logical reasoning basis, this option 1 is the most practical option. It would allow you pay back a lot of debt, take the pressure of the cashflow and still leave some capital for the new home.

The drawback is you would have to move house and change the every day habit.

You may feel disliking this option but I would urge to explore, in your mind, the real reason for *not wanting* to look at it.

Investment is a business. If the business is going through a bad patch, one would do everything and anything to survive.

Like a sailor riding through a bad storm: The rule number one is to remain survived and to reach the shore safely. Anything else is of secondary importance. There is no point of having a boat full of loot yet he can't survive. :)

Beware of the many facets of Fear that may be playing in your unconscious mind.
 
Hi Jo,

Our nearest IP is only 2BR! Hubby suggested it and I would not mind as we could renovate while in there. Plenty of room to add a bedroom but it would mean a 10yr old, an 8 yr old and a baby in one room.:eek:
No its not!

I have an absolutely fantastic PPOR with a huge 1BR fully Dual Oc approved flat attached that we rent out.
But hey, that would mean a married couple, a 10yr old, an 8 yr old and a baby in one room. Double: :eek:

But I like the idea of downsizing into something you already hold to improve your cashflow. I think interest rates are headed south fast and the name of the game today is to just hold on to what you've got. Tomorrow is a new day.

PS, and moving into the 2-bedder, you could keep the new bub in your room in a cot and that way keep the 10 and 8yo kids in the other room. Build that extra room and split the two older kids.

Cheers,
Michael
 
PS, and moving into the 2-bedder, you could keep the new bub in your room in a cot and that way keep the 10 and 8yo kids in the other room. Build that extra room and split the two older kids.Cheers,
Michael

Splitting the two older kids would be a bit messy, don't you think :p:D.
 
Honestly I don't like either of your options. I think there has to be a better way.

How much is our PPOR mortgage? Your non tax deductible debt.

Can you outline your ips in regards to loan repayments, value, equity out upon sale, rent etc. I feel like you are only giving us a corner of your situation and its not enough to make a well thought out decision.

How much are you short each month? How much would a decrease in interest rates say .5% improve the situation?

Don't cash in just for the pleasure of a holiday and a shopping trip!

Hi there,

I appreciate your experienced advice!

I guess I am hesitant to put all of my financial details on specifically but would be happy to email you them personally on the weekend.

My Non-tax deductable debt is @ $500k.

I have 7 IP's - My shortfall for all loans is nearly $12k/month!:eek:

To cut the details down, to sell in this market is absolutely ludicrous as we all know.

One property I have on the market has about 70k in it, but the killer Mobius at 12.5% property that I really want to sell, will see me pay an extra 15k to settle it!

If I sold these two properties I could keep the PPOR. They are just not selling.

Other properties are 80% LVR. (Except Commercial at 70%)- Which by the way is Neutrally geared. Has alot of equity but I would rather sell the PPOR than this one.

Again, I can tell you market values, but nothing market value is selling. To sell a property in this market is to take a CG loss and lose alot of money.

With my PPOR - I can afford a 75k loss and be happy with the gain I have made.

I might add that when I say we are short of cash, I mean that my little girl has holes in her dancing shoes, and if hubby doesn't have a break from work soon he might divorce me and be debt free!:eek: I'm not selling to go and blow money. I have a buffer that is going fast. (By the way- I have come to realise how cheap No Frills food is!)


A .5% drop in interest rates is not enough, and 5 of the properties are with non-banks. Who knows if they will drop their rates and when. Re-financing comes with exit fees on most and lower vals at the moment. My PPOR is the only property with enough equity to make it worth the sale., but not enough to pay a break fee in fixed rates and refinance to be in this situation again in 6 months.

Hi Mooze,

I would if I could find one! I would rather not sell anything! :)

Regards JO
 
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Hi Jo,

But I like the idea of downsizing into something you already hold to improve your cashflow. I think interest rates are headed south fast and the name of the game today is to just hold on to what you've got. Tomorrow is a new day.

PS, and moving into the 2-bedder, you could keep the new bub in your room in a cot and that way keep the 10 and 8yo kids in the other room. Build that extra room and split the two older kids.

Cheers,
Michael

Thanks Michael Hm, yes I am warming to this idea.........It must be my option 3!

I could add the bedroom quite easily with the equity out of the PPOR.

My 10 year old boy will absolute freak at sharing with his sister for a while.....His room at the moment is bigger than ours! It has a lounge and a Queen bed for visitors in it!

Regards JO
 
a) I would be happy to settle at 50k under market val.


Why drop the price? Ask for full value or more (offer pre-market access - i.e. before you advertise elsewhere) - because you are going to give them the option of it being tenanted (by you).

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
I have had 2 IP's on the market for 3 months, have dropped them both by 10%, they are under market value and I cannot sell them without losing alot of money.

The other IP's would see us lose all our CG in this market to entry and exit fees.

Jo, will you be losing money by selling any of the IPs or not?
You have a conflicting story which is making it hard to work out the best route to take.

In the first quoted text, when you say 'without losing a lot of money' do you mean losing money from what they were once worth? I think you are getting hung up on 'market value'. If they were under market value then they would have sold. Sounds like the market is actually different from what you are imagining.

What LVR do you have on the IPs? If you sell either of them will you actually walk away with any money from either of them that you can use to pay off a bit more of the PPOR?

I'd be glad you ahve some options, there are a lot more people in worse off situations.

Gools
 
Not sure if this will help, however something to keep in mind:

In our recent (ongoing) financial consolidation process, we sold properties which were on very low fixed rates (these just happened to be in suburbs where prices were ok, and liquidity was good), and kept properties with non-bank high variable rates (just happened to be in not so liquid-at-the-moment suburbs).

Instead of extinguishing the fixed loans, we did a security transfer - i.e. the proceeds of the sale was used to extinguish the non-bank loan, and the property offered up as security for the fixed term loan.

So, assuming similar values:

Property A on 8% loan
Property B on 12% loan

Unable to get good price on Property B, but Property A will sell.

Sell Property A.
Use proceeds to extinguish 12% loan.
Offer Property B in place of Property A.

You end up with: Property B on 8% loan



Cheers,

The Y-man
 
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