Help - rotten ceiling - Landlord's Rights?

[Stillrenting]

Hi Everyone!

I have got a situation and I don't really understand where I stand. I have a rental property:
- PM had a inspection done at the end of April - very clean and tidy
- Last week we were sent photos from the tenant, telling me the lack of ventilation had caused one entire bathroom ceiling to be covered in black mold and the cornice to fall off the wall (but the other bathroom was fine!)
- My understanding is mold does not build up over 1 week (which is what the tenant is claiming)
- PM sent a tradesman to inspect and fix
- Tradesman stated its not repairable - ceiling is rotten (as it has been wet for so long) and the entire ceiling needs replacing
- PM says we can ask tenant to pay and if they don't just claim it on insurance
- I would think that the situation is quite straight forward and that this has occurred due to the tenant's negligence
- I am considering taking it further, if the agent is not willing to act
- What are landlord's rights?
- Based on my reading of landlord's rights in NSW should have a reasonable case to argue?
- I am a little shocked that the PM's view is to repair it and keep the tenant happy, is she concerned that she has not completed one of her duties and that this may be brought to light in court?

Any ideas?

Thank you!

"Under the law the tenant must keep the premises in a reasonable state of cleanliness, having regard to the condition of the premises at the start of the tenancy. If the premises include a yard, lawns and gardens, they must also be kept neat and tidy by the tenant.

The tenant must not intentionally or negligently cause or permit damage to the premises. Negligence means forgetting to do something which a reasonable person would usually do in the circumstances, or doing something which a reasonable person would not do. In simple terms, it is a lack of care or attention.

A tenant is also responsible for damage caused by other occupants of the premises or any person the tenant allows on the premises.

Tenants must notify the landlord or agent of any damage to the premises as soon as practicable, regardless of who or what caused the damage. It is recommended that this notice be put in writing."

 

[Dazz]

Just fix it, now and permanently.

 

[handyandy]

Is it a unit or a house?

If it is a unit then the problem could be leaking plumbing connected to the unit above.

Cheers

 

[jezza]

Still renting

Where is your hot water tank, and if you think it is outside are you sure there is not still one in the roof. Also just because one room has mould and another doesn't does not mean anything. Is there enough ventilation going into this bathroom

Jezza

 

[Stillrenting]

Handyandy,

It's a unit, and it's located on the top floor. The PM's tradesman took a look and confirmed there was no leakage from the roof.

 

[Stillrenting]

Jezza,

Hotwater tank is outside from what I can remember. I had lived in the unit myself for 6 months, and the tenants had lived in it for 9 months prior now without any problem.. the tradesman did say the ventiliation was slightly blocked but would not have been the cause of the mold.

Thanks

 

[Perp]

Warning: reality check coming!

You haven't got a hope of getting the tenant to pay for this, unless the tenant is naive and easily intimidated and simply coughs up on request (unlikely). Particularly given that the ventilation is "slightly blocked"; if a Tribunal hears that, not only are you going to have to pay for all the repairs, expect the tenant to be claiming for health problems related to poor ventilation, compensation for loss of amenity during repairs, emergency accommodation during repairs, etc etc.

You'd best fix it ASAP and be happy that the only thing the tenant wants is for it to be repaired.

If the suggestion is that the tenant's not "using" the bathroom correctly, I'm afraid that's not going to stack up. You can't require tenants to open windows or doors, or leave them open after showering, or do things that you might do if you were living there yourself. The bathroom has to be designed to ventilate without any active involvement of the tenant. It may suck, but if you've chosen to be a residential landlord, you have to accept that the landlord has all the obligations.

Fix the ceiling, and ensure there's adequate ventilation going forward.

 

[skater]

Fix it and make sure there is adequate ventilation, but I would also want to know the source of the moisture. From what you are saying this place went from really good, to a rotten ceiling in one week. Now, that just would not happen unless there is water coming from above and pooling there.

My first thoughts were that there would have to be a unit above this place, but you mentioned it is on the top floor. I know that you said the roof isn't leaking, but I would want another opinion. If there is a problem with the roof, then the Strata would have to pay the costs.

 

[NBS]

How long have you owned the place? Is it possible the previous owner just cleaned a mouldy ceiling and painted over it and it is now coming through again and with the steam from the shower is growing at a fast rate in what would seem ideal conditions.

Have you had water in the ceiling from rain or leaking pipe before? if so mould could have started from this and is now through the sheet. If water did get in, was there insulation in place and was this removed and new insulation installed?

Do you have and exhaust fan and if so can it vent out of the ceiling void?

If you now have mould to the extent your saying, I would get it OUT ASAP as it can be very serious health matter. Once out clean all the timber work, (I use chlorine and water) I'm sure there are other professional products that can be used. Once the timber work is clean, sheet and paint, "personally" I prefer an enamel paint in the bathroom.

Install an exhaust fan to come on with the light this may solve issues as well.

I don't beleive it would just appear in a week, the fact is now its there. It maybe cheaper to just do it and move on than battle who pays or chat to your PM as I dare say this little job could blow out to a major exercise and cost if the tennent gets a bit funny about the situation.

Cost about $1000 - $1500 may complete in 4 days of course this is not 4 full days most would be waiting for plaster and or paint to dry between coats depending on what you use.

Just my 2cents worth.
Brian

 

[handyandy]

Whatever you do, do not install an exhaust fan into the ceiling.

This is a strata block and as such the ceiling is (or should be) a fire rated ceiling as such you will contravene fire regs if you were to put a ceiling fan, IXL etc through into the ceiling cavity. Even if you were to install one to vent through the tiles then the whole path would need to be re fire rated.

The delamination of the cornice could be related particularly if the whole ceiling has been getting wet but then this can only happen if there is an external source of the water.

If there is no external source of water then the cornice coming down is unlikely to be related to mold buildup. The gyprock will not be saturated due to a lack of ventilation.

Also if there is an external source of water, leak or even gutters flowing back into the roof cavity (remotely possible) then the damage is generally localised and certainly not encompass the whole ceiling.

To really be in any position to judge the source of the moisture I would need to see pictures.

Cheers

PS If it is caused by an external source then the strata is responsible for fixing the leak and you may be able to claim the ceiling against the stratas insurance.

 

[Bargain Hunter]

Warning: reality check coming!

You haven't got a hope of getting the tenant to pay for this, unless the tenant is naive and easily intimidated and simply coughs up on request (unlikely). Particularly given that the ventilation is "slightly blocked"; if a Tribunal hears that, not only are you going to have to pay for all the repairs, expect the tenant to be claiming for health problems related to poor ventilation, compensation for loss of amenity during repairs, emergency accommodation during repairs, etc etc.

We had a similar issue at one of our units. The PM reported mould in a kitchen cupboard and the tenant was told to clean it. Turns out it was a leaking shower causing the issue and we had to replace the whole kitchen would love to blame the tenant or the PM but hey sometimes **** happens.

Perp is absolutely right. You will be hammered at Tribunal and apart from the scenario outlined above probably have to reimburse part of the rent already paid as the prperty was not fit for occupation.

Cheers

Andrew

 

[Stillrenting]

Hi,

I understand that the "broken" ventilation is a point for argument, but should the tenant not advise me of the ventilation 3 months ago as opposed to 1 week ago?

The tenancy handbook indicates "The tenant must not intentionally or negligently cause or permit damage to the premises. Negligence means forgetting to do something which a reasonable person would usually do
in the circumstances, or doing something which a reasonable person would not do. In simple terms, it is a lack of care or attention."

If I had been notified when the mold started then I would have rectified the problem, whilst at this point in time it looks like the entire ceiling needs to be replaced as it is no longer even sitting straight.

From what I make of the situation is the tenant has subleased the bathroom and second bedroom to someone else and paid no attention to what was happening (as the rest of the unit is still in a decent state).

Any ideas? What I my chances at CTTT and alternatively, how much would it cost to rectify the problem. I'm a little disappointed with the entire situation as I cannot see where I have done anything wrong i.e. delayed fixing the problem, made any excuses for not fixing etc. But it was them that (a) caused the problem, by not doing what a reasonable person would do (ventilate after showering) (b) did not tell me in the first instance to reduce the damage (c) Given the state of the mold it did not happen over a week

I have attached some photos of the damage.

Thanks

 

[handyandy]

That's definitely water stains in the second pic.

I say flick it to the strata as I suspect you have cracked tiles above the bathroom. As mentioned before the starta insurance should pay for the repair to the ceiling although this may not include a repaint.

Cheers

PS the cornice falling of is because they didn't screw the square cornice to the ceiling and tried to just glue it to the tiles, which will never hold. Particularly if it is water damaged above.

 

[pully]

it certainly looks disgusting and probably smells too!

the property maintenance and repair is your responsibility and the longer it is left there is the potential for it to be more costly to fix.

your could explore any insurance claims via strata and certainly make sure that whatever caused the damage is fixed.

the issue about your tenant subletting needs to be sorted if it was without consent.

if the ceiling is rotten and collapses onto your tenants and/or causes injury or damage you maybe facing other costs?

check all your insurances are up to date. speak to your property manager about the subletting, and also speak to your strata manager re the damage etc.

good luck.

 

[marg4000]

Mould is a very serious health hazard and MUST be treated immediately.

From the photos and description there is something seriously wrong with the ceiling in that damage appears to be coming from above.

You can't blame your tenant, and your first step is to identify the cause of the problem.
Marg

 

[Dazz]

I'm a little disappointed with the entire situation as I cannot see where I have done anything wrong i.e. delayed fixing the problem, made any excuses for not fixing etc.

Exactly right - you've got every right to be disappointed. I'd leave it a few more months and see if the Tenants just ignore it. Usually in situations like this, people get used to it after a while and things settle back down to normal. Give it a bit of time, all will be well.

It was them that (a) caused the problem, by not doing what a reasonable person would do (ventilate after showering) (b) did not tell me in the first instance to reduce the damage (c) Given the state of the mold it did not happen over a week

Probably best to file a complaint to the Tribunal and stick it right up your Tenants. There was a strong precedent in VCAT a few years back....Doey Landlord vs Mouldy Dead Tenant, can't remember exactly who won, but it was close I do remember that. You're onto a winner there.

 

[Bargain Hunter]

The tenancy handbook indicates "The tenant must not intentionally or negligently cause or permit damage to the premises. Negligence means forgetting to do something which a reasonable person would usually do in the circumstances, or doing something which a reasonable person would not do. In simple terms, it is a lack of care or attention."

We were able to evict a tenant who did not report an issue with the kitchen drain which lead to damage to the kitchen cupboard and the flooring. The property was not able to be tenanted until they moved out and the repairs were undertaken. Cost us time and money, and the tenant jsut moved on. Mind you that was probably as good as it got with this tenant as they were always falling behind in rent and being given second chances by Tribunal.

 

[pulse]

As the others have said just fix it... you shouldn't need to ventilate a bathroom after use. Install ventilation wired to the light and paint the new ceiling with semigloss paint which is less permeable than flat paint. I just moved into my unit, the tenants cleaned the ceiling mould perfectly before I moved in, it has grown back in a few weeks, my cornice has also delaminated due to flat paint and not semi gloss allowing water penetration... I can hardly evict myself for what has been reasonable use.

Cheers
Pulse

PS use water-resistant plasterboard

 

[Perp]

I understand that the "broken" ventilation is a point for argument, but should the tenant not advise me of the ventilation 3 months ago as opposed to 1 week ago?

That would've been nice, but it didn't happen. The clauses you refer to are not intended to cover this type of situation, though, but to cover much more extreme situations, such as tenants who - for example - have a blocked toilet, but instead of getting it unblocked, defacate on the floor in a spare room. (Sorry for that! ) The Tribunal is not going to class a bit of mould on the ceiling as being a violation of this clause; the tenant could just as easily argue that they felt they were delaying their cleaning a bit, rather than realising it required maintenance.

From what I make of the situation is the tenant has subleased the bathroom and second bedroom to someone else and paid no attention to what was happening (as the rest of the unit is still in a decent state).

If your only evidence is the difference in condition, you're really grasping at straws here. Even if they are sub-letting, if you take them to Tribunal on the basis of a sub-let, the Tribunal will almost certainly simply order that the second tenant must be added to the lease. And that helps you how, exactly?

Any ideas? What I my chances at CTTT and alternatively, how much would it cost to rectify the problem.

You have zero chance at CTTT; you'll make it worse by going there, as many of us have suggested. Whatever it costs to rectify, suck it up - QUICKLY - and move on.

I'm a little disappointed with the entire situation as I cannot see where I have done anything wrong

I see this again and again with landlords, who are under the mistaken impression that if they haven't done anything "wrong", then they're not liable. This is totally the wrong mindset. As a landlord, you're liable for all sorts of things that have nothing to do with being "wrong" in the conventional sense of the word. Just be grateful that this is - relatively - such a small thing!

In case you think I'm taking this position just because it's not me that has the problem, I'll share a little more than I usually would: I had a bunch of feral tenants damage my property last year and cause about $15K of damage, and cause me to lose $30K in rental income. A $45K hole in our cashflow at that time almost sent us under, and we're still struggling pay cheque to pay cheque just to survive. We've had to borrow from family, and take our kids out of their private school, and the whole thing's been humiliating and extremely stressful. I hated it for a few days. But then I accepted that I chose to play in this domain, so I have to move on and deal with the consequences of that choice. And delaying dealing with consequences is always costly. If I'd been more vigilant about some of the early "niggles", my situation wouldn't have gotten as bad as it did.

I'm not trying to be unsympathetic, but hopefully inject a dose of reality into your thinking. Whether it's fair or not, the entire legal system puts all obligations, responsibilities, and expenses onto residential landlords, and almost no obligations on tenants. (I was going to say that tenants have to pay their rent, but often it seems that they don't even have to do that. ) It's a legacy of the feudal system in England, I'm sure. But you can't change it - you either choose to be a part of it and "suck it up", or you opt out.

Option 3 - be a landlord but wish things were different and fairer and that tenants were more reasonable and Tribunal made them accept more responsibility etc - is a sure path to insanity.

But it was them that (a) caused the problem, by not doing what a reasonable person would do (ventilate after showering)

You can't require them to take "extra" steps to protect your property. As mentioned by others, it has to be designed to not require any active intervention by the tenant to stay in good condition, so you have to have the fan hard-wired to the light switch, or I believe there are ones you can get which are triggered by the hot water being turned on in the shower. Or you install fixed ventilation which is adequate.

 

[NBS]

Sorry I must have missed reading it was a strata title premise, I will say what you see mould wise will be nothing to what you cannot see.

Good luck.
Brian