How do you spot the top of a cycle - analyzing the state of the WA market

Pete said:
Kenneth wrote


My experience from buying IP#1 back in late 1987 was similar. The house value virtually doubled in three months by early 1988. However 10 years later in 1998, the value was still ~30% below the 1988 peak. House in Cairns.

It happens.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dear Pete,

1. Thank you for sharing your own experience.

2. With the recent boom in Cairns, I am curious to know what the price for the same house in today's market condition and what do you reckon the properties in the Cairns property market is likely to perform over the next 5 years as it is starting to enter into its Slump Phase since 2005?

3. I look forward to learning from you further please.

4. Thank you.

Cheers,
Kenneth KOH
 
Ken,

I don't know. I sold the house in 1998 - years before I learnt the proper way to invest in property.

In fact, I moved from Cairns years earlier in 1989 and have only briefly visited since.

regards,
 
Kieran,

Just bought your book two days ago and have "raced" through it. Top read. Pretty fluky that 3 hours after I finished reading it I find you on Somersoft:p

For someone that knows little on the Property cycle but has 15 books or so on property I found it a really good read. Now I'm trying to find all kind of stats so I can monitor them and see where we are in the cycle and when it looks like we are entering a slump.

Your book has made me feel less bullish about the Perth market and more careful to assess what is ACTUALLY happening out there.

I like the way you have tablised the key drivers against the beginning, middle and end of each part of the cycle. It means I don't have to go through the whole book trying to simplify the whats and whens. Its a quick, easy and important reference guide.

I notice in the book the game is stated as being NZD 99.95, but the site states its been drastically reduced to NZD 149.95. Why the difference?
I was considering buying it - but find the NZD 149.95 too pricy for my own liking.

Anyway great book. I look forward to the next one.

Regards
Keen
 
Thanks Keen,

Your kind feedback is sincerely appreciated. I've been busy writing my next book (due for international release Sept 2006) so haven't been keeping up with this thread, hence the delayed reply.

I encourage people to use my book on the property cycle as an ongoing reference guide because it's not the sort of book you can afford to read once and then forget about. Many readers have contacted me to thank me for writing it and some have said it's ultimate value is realised by refering back to the book as the cycle progresses whilst you observe the cycle in action in your own location.

Re the board game. Initial RRP on release back in 2003 was $349-95 reduced to just $99-95 when my book was published late 2004 on the belief that bookstores would stock the board game alongside my book. So far they haven't so the company Board increased the price back to $149-95NZD.

However if you use the fax form in the back of my book we will still honour the price of $99-95NZ plus freight to Aust is still $70NZ.
Fax it to NZ (09) 638-3351.

Thanks again for your kind feedback.
 
Kieran said:
Re the board game. Initial RRP on release back in 2003 was $349-95 reduced to just $99-95 when my book was published late 2004 on the belief that bookstores would stock the board game alongside my book. So far they haven't so the company Board increased the price back to $149-95NZD.

However if you use the fax form in the back of my book we will still honour the price of $99-95NZ plus freight to Aust is still $70NZ.
Fax it to NZ (09) 638-3351.
And for a few days last month- it was $NZ69.95 + $70 freight. And I bought one at the original price :(

The company Board- would that be the board Board? The bored board Board?
 
Hi Geoff

for a few days last month- it was $NZ69.95 + $70 freight

Our accountant told us on 31st March to SELL SOME STOCK before the end of the financial year which was (you guessed it) the same day! So the company Board made a rapid decision to offer a discounted price that day only.

So it was a stocktake special on 31st March only and the price was reduced to $59-95. Needless to say we did move a lot of stock!
 
market top in WA

To predict a top in WA property which, by the way for newbies, is being fuelled by the commodities boom, I would keep my eye out on China (our biggest export market for commodities) and their economic growth.

If they revalue the yuan and it appreciates against the US dollar or they raise interest rates then this could lead to a contraction of their economy. And if combined with a high $A they may export less minerals from us. Also the 2008 Beijing Olympics means there is a construction frenzy at the moment and an increase in demand for raw materials but this should ease after the Olympic Games. Hence, maybe 1-2 years later this could affect WA economy and dribble down to property. Although bull markets tend to last longer than what we expect.

In addition, I would look at how much money the RBA is printing, I think it was between 8-9%, last time I looked at the back of the Economist. Asset prices, including property, may not drop too much as there would be so much liquidity out there chasing fewer assets. This will help prop up property prices but will also make goods and services more expensive. If wages do not rise with inflation then this would make property even more unaffordable for many people.

I would keep in mind that the economy could experience stagflation if there is a lack of economic growth and high inflation. It it does happen, think high unemployment rates and bankruptcies which will lead to forced property sales. If the RBA raises interest rates to curb inflation then this will affect property owners with mortgates. I don't need to spell out the rest of the grim scenario.

These are some of the biggies I can think of at the moment. Although there are other factors which can impact the WA property market.
 
I think people are applying there own mindset and domestic frame of reference to the "commodity boom"....which is apparently underpinning the growth we are seeing.

The commodities being sold are under the standard T&C's agreed in quite substantial lengthy contracts. The original one signed in 1983 between Woodside and Japanese customers, which started the whole NWS thing is still in force. These T&C's and contractual supply do not change with the wind or according to our little Australian housing market whims.

I was working for Woodside in '02 when the Chinese signed a 25 or 30 year contract to supply....these things underpin work and activity for sure, but it won't just drop off in a year or two....these agreements will still be active and in place - producing "demand" when I'm old and wrinkly.

The 4th train is up and running and the 5th train up to service the big Chinese contract is just about finished.....trains 1, 2 & 3 are still chugging along from '84....no change there.

The big Gorgon development is getting off the ground after 15 years in the doldrums....

To speak nothing of the stranded monster Jansz prospect ExxonMobil has offshore. That makes the whole NWS system look like a bubby.

God knows what's happening with the big iron ore mines....I'm not a miner....but I'm told they are going pretty well as well, signing lengthy contracts.....these large industries cannot efficiently work on little 3 and 4 year property cycles....it's gotta be 20+ years to get your sunk capital costs back.

Anyway, I'm currently negotiating with large service industry organisations who feed off and directly supply these 30 year contracts....they see a very bright future and are willing to sign up for 15 and 20 years also. Money and rent aren't an issue for these guys....if the prop has the attributes they need to conduct their business....you're in like Flynn.

I don't know about the housing aspect w.r.t. the workers....we'd prefer to get a little closer to the action. ;)
 
chinese contracts

China will still pay market price for minerals but how much they decide to import each year is negotiated and depends also on their economic growth (See paragraph in bold below). The contracts allow China to be first in line to these minerals.


China boom for Rio
By Barry FitzGerald
Resources Editor
June 25, 2004


Rio Tinto has managed to convert the hype surrounding the China boom into substance by signing up to supply an additional $1.4 billion of iron ore annually to leading steel mills.

The long-term contracts will protect Rio Tinto and its Pilbara iron ore operations against any sharp and prolonged fall in demand from China's steel mills.

On the quality of Chinese contracts, Rio Tinto's comment was that it had not had a problem in more than 30 years of dealings in the country.

The contracts also serve to underpin the group's previously announced $1.6 billion of new investment in expanding its mines, railways and ports to meet the demand from China.

The investment program will increase Rio Tinto's export capacity from 118 million tonnes of iron ore in 2003 to more than 170 million tonnes by 2006 - a growth rate not seen since Japan's steel industry boom of the 1960s and '70s.

Rio Tinto's wholly owned Hamersley Iron will supply 30 million tonnes a year of the new contract, with the remaining 10 million tonnes a year coming from the 53 per cent owned Robe River joint venture.

"The contracts, which have an average duration of 10 years, will reach their stated volumes following the completion of the current expansion program at the end of 2005," Rio Tinto said.

It said the contracts were in addition to the long-term contract signed in April with Shanghai Baosteel for the supply of 7 million tonnes a year over 10 years.

The new agreements mean that from 2006, Hamersley and Robe River will have 85 million tonnes, or 50 per cent, of its iron ore capacity dedicated to the Chinese steel industry.

Assuming the current slowdown in the Chinese economy, under orders from Beijing, does not result in negative growth, the sharemarket will remain happy with that exposure.

The market is jittery at the moment about China's growth rate, noting that iron ore imports have retreated from more than 19 million tonnes a month in March to 13.2 million tonnes in May.


China's undoubted hunger for iron ore was the key factor in Rio Tinto and the other iron ore producers being able to secure a hefty 18.6 per cent increase in the US-dollar price for shipments in 2004-05.

That price increase, along with the big production increases, has been forecast to lift Australia's iron ore industry from a $5.4 billion export industry this year to a $7.6 billion industry next year.
 
china's economic growth

I think that there a number of worldwide factors that we should keep in mind. Please take note also of this article on macroeconomics and China from

http://www.gloomboomdoom.com/marketcoms/040901.htm

All I can say is that we shall see if this will occur sometime in the future.


Is Depression in China a Possibility?


Today, I have the pleasure of including an interesting report on the above subject by Krassimir Petrov. Petrov is originally from Bulgaria , but has lived for 9 years in the US . He holds a B.A. in Business ( Sofia University ), M.A. in Economics from the University of Delaware , and Ph.D. in Economics (1999) from the Ohio State University . He is a disciple of the Austrian School of Economics and spent this summer at the Mises Institute of Austrian Economics at Auburn , Alabama . According to Petrov, his focus has been on (1) money and credit and (2) bubbles and considers himself in his second life a silver-bug! I have no doubt that given his impressive economic background his concerns about the possibility of a bust in China should be taken seriously. Where I have some disagreements with him is about the timing of the bust, whereby I think it may happen sooner than he thinks. But read on.

China 's Great Depression
By Krassimir Petrov


Having recently completed Rothbard's “America's Great Depression”, I couldn't help draw the parallels between America's roaring 20's and China's roaring economy today, and I couldn't help conclude that China will inevitably fall in a depression just like America did during the 1930s. The objective of this article is to present an Austrian argument as to why this must happen; to substantiate my arguments, I will be quoting Rothbard's Fifth Edition where relevant.


Before proceeding any further, I would urge all readers who haven't read Rothbard's “ America 's Great Depression”, to pick up a copy and read it. First, it is a real pleasant read, and Rothbard's witty style of writing makes reading it fun. Second, the first part of the book develops the Austrian Business Cycle Theory, which is indispensable for understanding credit booms and their inevitable busts. Finally, the second part of the book elaborates the development and the causes of the Inflationary Boom of the 1920s and provides a basis for comparison with the economic policies of modern-day China .

In order to establish our parallel, we need some historical perspective of the relationship between a world superpower and a rising economic giant. In the 1920s, Great Britain was the superpower of the world, and the United States was the rising giant. As such, Great Britain ran its economic policies independently, and the U.S. adapted its own policies in a somewhat subordinated manner. Today, The United States is the hegemonic superpower of the world, and China is the rising economic giant. Not surprisingly, the U.S. runs its policy independently, while China adjusts its own accordingly.

Continuing our parallel analysis, during the 1920s the British Empire was already in decline, was militarily overextended, and in order to pay for its imperial adventures, resorted to debasing its own currency and running continuous foreign trade and budget deficits. In other words, Britain was savings-short, a net-debtor nation, and the rest of the world was financing her. Meanwhile, America was running trade surpluses and was a net creditor nation. Importantly from a historical point of view, the British Empire collapsed when the rest of the world pulled the plug on their credit and began capital repatriation. Today, the American Empire is in decline, is militarily overextended, and is financing her overextended empire with the “tried-and-true” methods of currency debasement and never-ending foreign trade and budget deficits. In other words, America is savings-starved, a net-debtor nation, and the rest of the world is financing her. At the same time, today China runs trade surpluses and is a net-creditor nation. When the rest of the world finally pulls the plug on American credit, will the American Empire also collapse?

The cause of the Depression, as Rothbard explains, was a credit expansion that fuelled the boom. According to Rothbard, “[o]ver the entire period of the boom, we find that the money supply increased by $28.0 billion, a 61.8 percent increase over the eight year period [of 1921-1929]. This was an average annual increase of 7.7 percent, a very sizable degree of inflation (p.93)…The entire monetary expansion took place in money substitutes, which are products of credit creation… The prime factor in generating the inflation of the 1920s was the increase in total bank reserves” (p.102). In other words, during the 1920s, the United States experienced an inflationary credit boom. This was most evident in the booming stock and the booming real estate markets. Furthermore, there was a “spectacular boom in foreign bonds… It was a direct reflection of American credit expansion, and particularly of the low interest rates generated by that expansion” (p.130). To stem the boom, the Fed attempted in vain to use moral suasion on the markets and restrain credit expansion only for “legitimate business. Importantly, consumer “prices generally remained stable and even fell slightly over the period” (p. 86). No doubt the stable consumer prices contributed to the overall sense of economic stability, and the majority of professional economists then did not realize that the economy was not fundamentally sound. To them the bust came as a surprise.

Today, in a similar fashion, the seeds of Depression are sown in China . Economists hail the growth of China , many not realizing that China is undergoing an inflationary credit boom that dwarfs that American one during the roaring ‘20s. According to official government statistics, 2002 Chinese GDP growth was 8%, and 2003 growth was 8.5%, and some analysts believe these numbers to be conservative. According to the People's Bank of China own web site (http://www.pbc.gov.cn/english/baogaoyutongjishuju), “Money & Quasi Money Supply” for 2001/01 was 11.89 trillion, for 2002/01 was 15.96 trillion, for 2003/01 was 19.05 trillion, and for 2004/01 was 22.51 trillion yuan. In other words, money supply for 2001, 2002, and 2003 grew respectively 34.2%, 19.3%, and 18.1%. Thus, during the last three years, money supply in China grew approximately three times faster than money supply in the U.S. during the 1920s.

No wonder the Chinese stock market has been booming and the Chinese real estate market is on fire. Just like the U.S. in the 20s, China finances today foreign countries, mostly the U.S. , by buying U.S. government bonds with their trade surplus dollars. Just like the Fed's failed attempts of moral suasion during the 20s, the Chinese government today similarly attempts in vain to curtail growth of credit by providing it only to those industries that need it, that is, only to industries that the government endorses for usually political reasons. Also, for most of the current boom, Chinese consumer prices have been mostly tame and even falling, while prices for raw commodities have been skyrocketing, which perfectly fits the Austrian view that prices of higher-order goods, such as raw materials, should rise relative to prices of lower-order goods, such as consumer goods. This indeed confirms that credit expansion has already been in progress for a considerable time, and that inflation now is in an advanced stage, although it has not yet reached a runaway mode. Thus, economic conditions in China today are strikingly similar to those in America during the 1920s, and the multi-year credit expansion implies that a bust is inevitable.

There are also important parallels regarding currency and export policy. During the 1920s, the British Pound was overvalued and was used by smaller countries as a reserve currency. While Britain ran its inflationary policies during the 1920's, it was losing gold to other countries, mainly the United States . Therefore, “if the United States government were to inflate American money, Great Britain would no longer lose gold to the United States” (p. 143). Exacerbating the problem further, the Americans artificially stimulated foreign lending, which further strengthened American farm exports, aggravated the net-export problem, and accelerated the gold flow imbalances. “It [foreign lending] also established American trade, not on a solid foundation of reciprocal and productive exchange, but on a feverish promotion of loans later revealed to be unsound” (p. 139). “[President] Hoover was so enthusiastic about subsidizing foreign loans that he commented later that even bad loans helped American exports and thus provided a cheap form of relief and employment—a cheap form that later brought expensive defaults and financial distress” (p.141) Thus, the preceding discussion makes it clear, that the fundamental reasons behind the American inflationary policy were (1) to check Great Britain's drains of gold to the United States, (2) to stimulate foreign lending, and (3) to stimulate agricultural exports.

Similarly, today the dollar is overvalued and used as the reserve currency of the world. The U.S. runs its inflationary policy and is losing dollars to the rest of the world, mainly China (and Japan ). Today, the currency and export policy of China is anchored around its peg to the dollar. The main reason for this is that by artificially undervaluing its own currency, and therefore overvaluing the dollar, China artificially stimulates its manufacturing exports. The second reason is that by buying the excess U.S. dollars and reinvesting them in U.S. government bonds, it acts as a foreign lender to the United States . The third reason is that this foreign lending stimulates American demand for Chinese manufacturing exports and allows the Chinese government to relieve its current unemployment problems. In other words, the motives behind the Chinese currency and export policy today are identical to the American ones during the 1920s: (1) to support the overvalued U.S. dollar, (2) to stimulate foreign lending, and (3) to stimulate its manufacturing exports. Just like America in the 1920s, China establishes its trade today not on the solid foundation of reciprocal and productive exchange, but on the basis of foreign loans. No doubt, most of these loans will turn out to be very expensive because they will be repaid with greatly depreciated dollars, which in turn will exacerbate down the road the growing financial distress of the banking sector in China .

Therefore, it is clear that China travels today the road to Depression. How severe this depression will be, will critically depend on two developments. First, how much longer the Chinese government will pursue the inflationary policy, and second how doggedly it will fight the bust. The longer it expands and the more its fights the bust, the more likely it is that the Chinese Depression will turn into a Great Depression. Also, it is important to realize that just like America 's Great Depression in the 1930s triggered a worldwide Depression, similarly a Chinese Depression will trigger a bust in the U.S. , and therefore a recession in the rest of the world.

Unless there is an unforeseen banking, currency, or a derivative crisis spreading throughout the world, it is my belief that the Chinese bust will occur sometime in 2008-2009, since the Chinese government will surely pursue expansionary policies until the 2008 Summer Olympic Games in China. By then, inflation will be most likely out of control, probably already in runaway mode, and the government will have no choice but to slam the brakes and induce contraction. In 1929 the expansion stopped in July, the stock market broke in October, and the economy collapsed in early 1930. Thus, providing for a latency period of approximately half a year between credit contraction and economic collapse, based on my Olympic Games timing, I would pinpoint the bust for 2009. Admittedly, this is a pure speculation on my part; naturally, the bust could occur sooner or later.

While I base my timing of bust on the 2008 Olympic Games, Marc Faber, however, believes the bust will occur sooner. According to him, the U.S. is due for a meaningful recession relatively soon, which in turn will exacerbate already existing manufacturing overcapacities in China . This, coupled with growing credit problems, makes him believe that China will tip into recession sooner than the Olympic Games. In other words, Dr. Faber believes that a U.S. recession will trigger the Depression in China . Indeed, that very well may be the trigger, but if so, it still remains to be seen whether the Chinese government will let the bust run its course or choose the route of a “crack-up” boom, come hell or high water.

We should also consider another possible trigger for a bust, namely trade surpluses turning into trade deficits due to the accelerated rise of prices for resources, such as commodities, which China must import. Faced with trade deficits, China may decide to dishoard surpluses by selling U.S. government bonds, or it may decide to abandon its peg to the dollar. In either case, this will exacerbate the problems of the ailing U.S. economy, which in turn will boomerang back to China .

Finally, the bust may be triggered by a worldwide crisis in crude oil supplies. Peak oil supply is around the corner, if not already behind us, and Middle East or Caspian instability could sharply cut oil supplies. Historically, oil shortages and their concomitant rise of oil prices have always induced a recession. China 's growing dependence on oil ensures that should an oil crisis occur, it will slip into recession.

To summarize, the likely candidates for a trigger to the Chinese depression are (1) a worldwide currency, banking, or derivatives crisis, (2) a U.S. recession, (3) the containment of runaway inflation, (4) the disappearance of Chinese trade surpluses, and (5) an oil supply crisis.

Whatever the trigger of the bust in China , there is little doubt that this will provide the onset of a worldwide depression. Just like the U.S. emerged from the Great Depression as the unrivalled superpower of the world, so it is likely that China will emerge as the next.

Krassimir Petrov, Ph.D., e-mail: [email protected]
 
Thanks for the info, gigigoodyear.

What steps might a smart investor in residential properties do to protect their assets in the face of such portentious reports?

I guess it depends on the anticipated magnitude of a recession, the investor and their circumstances and risk profile.

Personally, I aim to hold onto my current portfolio so will aim to always invest comfortably (for me) within my capacities and with reserves always in place to cover likely worst case scenarios. (And expand the portfolio when I can.)

What more can one do? Exit the market entirely and put the equity wherever it is safest? Where would that be?

regards,
 
china and recession

The Petrov article is a good start to think about the issues that may affect China, and ultimately Australia. But it also did not mention other big ifs that may minimise the impact of a depression. These are just some of my thoughts:

1. China's internal economy may have grown big enough to replace the US if it goes into recession. This however is a big IF. Or Europe could replace the US as the engine of world growth - but I don't think this is very likely.

2. China is friendly with a lot of political unstable countries and dictators which are happy to supply it with oil unlike the US which is making more enemies everyday. But then all bets are off if the US or Israel declares war in Iran and causes chaos in the middle east and affects Saudi Arabian oil supply. We don't need terrorists when we have the US. In that case, we're all stuffed and so get prepared for a depression.

3. Chinese people have very high savings rate.

From reading what other financial analysts have said and who are concerned with these scenarios, they suggest the following:

1. Get out of debt.

2. Invest in real wealth. Analysts say that gold maintained its value in the 1930s depression (but then the US govt had pegged it to US$35 per ounce). Although in the 1997 Asian financial crisis, both silver and gold did quite well as some govts (eg Thai) begged their citizens to donate these metals to their treasuries help their country recover financially.

3. Invest in precious metal and energy stocks.

4. Plant vegetable gardens if you have a backyard.

5. Make your home energy efficient or self-sufficient.

6. Run an energy efficient car. The less oil it uses the better. Those living in the outer suburbs or taking a lot of time to commute to and from work will be most affected.

Of course, I don't know if it will get to be this bad which is why I keep a track of world events for any of Petrov's indicators. Some like a US recession (US dollar devaluing sharply, falling house prices and rise in mortgage defaults) and falling oil supply are starting to become grim realities.
 
Probably should have let this thread die a natural death, but .......

The experts on the box last night indicated that growth for the past 12 months in Perth has been 28.8% and for the first quarter of 2006 it has been 8.8%.
And they said another four yrs of growth !! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I guess its official now....we're still peking...(sic)

kp
 
kph said:
Probably should have let this thread die a natural death, but .......

The experts on the box last night indicated that growth for the past 12 months in Perth has been 28.8% and for the first quarter of 2006 it has been 8.8%.
And they said another four yrs of growth !! :eek: :eek: :eek:

I guess its official now....we're still peking...(sic)

kp


umm where on the box was this?? any more links/info?
 
Channel 7 news in Perth.
Most of the Perth current affairs programs have a segment on the current market as well.
Then theres the newspapers.... I only read the Sat edition, but its always has an article or two about the 'latest greatest'
Last week it was featuring two properties on the front page that sold for $12 and $15 mil or something.

Seems like its still booming.....

kp
 
Think I read it in one of the papers last night. So if Perth grows at a similar rate for another 4 years, and Sydney stays flat, the Perth median will be higher than Sydney.

I'm just applying some sanity checks here, and THAT doesn't make sense.
Alex
 
Have to agree. It does not make sense.
I am sure it won't grow at the same rate, but I do believe that the growth can continue for another 4 yrs.
At a more moderate rate of course......
Even if it only comes in at 1% or thereabouts, its still a positive figure.

kp
 
Dear Alex and Kph,

1 Care to further elaborate on your thinking why it does not make sense for Perth median price to exceed Sydney median house price, given the the continuing resource boom?

2. I look forward to learning from each one of your, please

3. Thank you.

regards,
Kenneth KOH
 
It doesn't make sense on simple logic.
Perth doesn't have the population base of Sydney and probably never will.
The Sydney area is perceived to be land locked, ie.. limited land available for development.
Perth comprises an urban sprawl that can go North and South for many many kms yet.
All Perth needs is a better public transport system ( extend the train lines) and all these outlying suburbs become very accessable to the city, not that everyone needs to access the CBD anyway.

All Perth needs now, is for the current supply of land to match the demand, and for builders to catch up with the backlog, and the price rises should stabilise.
The demand is not open ended. It will moderate. Once supply catches up, the price no longer needs to keep rising. If however, there is an overshoot and the supply exceeds the demand, then a price correction is possible.
Thing is how long ?? I believe 2 to 4 yrs.
I have heard of two builders who have closed their books. No more orders till they get through their backlog. One has 400 houses to build before they open the display centres again.

There must be more, but these are only two that I have heard about.

kp
 
kph said:
It doesn't make sense on simple logic.
I have heard of two builders who have closed their books. No more orders till they get through their backlog. One has 400 houses to build before they open the display centres again.

There must be more, but these are only two that I have heard about.

kp

man what a nice lifestyle these builders must lead..to say you have 400 homes to build..thats my dream come true..they would easily make $50k clear for each house..times that by 400..thats a nice lil nest egg.. plus if they are developers as well..they would be making money out of the land as well...ugh..tuff life for some!!
:D :D :D
 
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