How does everyone feel about the % fee for property management

Hi All

Do you think it’s right to charge the same % fee for a $300pw property compared to a $600 property

Same work for both properties but double the fees.

Interested in your thoughts and feedback

The feedback I am getting from the investors I have onboard has been positive.

Feedback from other agents not so good but I expected that.
 
to be honest, i usually find that the more expensive properties require a lot less work. yes, the inspections take longer, but the general calibre of people in that price range are higher than say the $200 a week properties. I'd almost be inclined to charge more for cheaper rent because its those properties that are more work!
 
to be honest, i usually find that the more expensive properties require a lot less work. yes, the inspections take longer, but the general calibre of people in that price range are higher than say the $200 a week properties. I'd almost be inclined to charge more for cheaper rent because its those properties that are more work![/QUOTE]

With PM fees ranging tup to 18% of total incoming rent, especially for the lower priced proiperties where some things are fixed price and therefore a higher %age than they woudl be of a more expensive rental, how much extra do you think is fair to charge for these Rachel ?:confused:
 
We actually pay the lowest % for our more expensive properties. I believe this is because:
- more competition between PMs in the area
- higher rental price means PM can afford to discount their fees and still pay their employees
- comparatively less work associated with problem tenants (eg. rent areras, liaising with insurer, going to tribunal, etc.)
 
Russell - I would much rather your flat fee system, but it's just not an option down here in Canberra (well that I can find anyway).

But honestly I'm not that worried about the week-to-week expense (I pay 7%+GST), it's more the annual stuff like the letting fee of one week's rent + GST. For a property that rents for $500 a week that ends up at $550. Too much! Really adds up quickly.

Oh, and my property manager managed to slip in that a resigning of the lease by the same tenants would attract the same fee. Not sure how I missed that one! Will be sure to get that fixed before they resign though.
 
I don't mind paying a percentage - then again i support a flat percentage rate for tax too. Although there aren't too many that provide a flat fee for rentals, there are plenty out there for sales and I wouldn't touch them. The majority of those companies cut corners and there is too much they don't include in their service. We all want the biggest bang for our buck, but I don't mind paying for a service if I get most of what I want out of a PM (I pay high fees for my accountant too and I don't whinge at tax time when I get a fat pay cheque from the tax office). They have a business to run and obviously need to make a profit to be there for the long run. Luckyone - HLC (Home Loan Centre) which is now Active Property in Canberra used to have a flat $ amount, but now charge 9% + letting fee. I can only assume that either it was not viable or investors didn't go for it.
 
interesting I have tried to find other flat fees property management in Australia and am still looking.

I agree about the service this is why I have a 7 day service guarantee that if you are not happy with my service I will release you without fee.

but I have set up my office to have a max of 100 properties per property manager so my service should not be affected by my price point

hoping to be in camberra in the next 2 years
 
You know, most agencies probably only just cover costs on PM. The money's in sales commission; PM just provides coverage and exposure, on a very good day.

I do know. I spent the most boring year of my life office managing a RE agency once upon a time. Met the entire 'corporate team' in a big company over that sorrowful year. Believe me: REs employ only the absolute dregs for staff - PMs most of all - and they're the cream of the agency staff. Good ones average $60 to $70K a year, for ulcers all that would rival Ol' Smokey!

Why? Because it's a thankless, hateful, totally unrewarding occupation (the end of end for the ambitious but unqualified, basically), and if you're not happy with your PM, don't worry - they're only two good gins away from quitting their job anyway.

I'd warrant it's probably the highest staff turnover job in the country. Basic formula: Crap job, crap staff, crap prospects, crap service. There are a few exceptions, of course. They can be found where the PM makes a profit for the agency, so you have to pay for it if you can get it.

If anybody tells me they're delighted to be a PM I know I'm talking to a professional bin-liner. A decent PM is on their way out and onto better things, above all building their own portfolio, and is paid enough to do it.

The solution is independent PMs, but that's another name for PIs.
 
You know, most agencies probably only just cover costs on PM. The money's in sales commission; PM just provides coverage and exposure, on a very good day.

I do know. I spent the most boring year of my life office managing a RE agency once upon a time. Met the entire 'corporate team' in a big company over that sorrowful year. Believe me: REs employ only the absolute dregs for staff - PMs most of all - and they're the cream of the agency staff. Good ones average $60 to $70K a year, for ulcers all that would rival Ol' Smokey!

Why? Because it's a thankless, hateful, totally unrewarding occupation (the end of end for the ambitious but unqualified, basically), and if you're not happy with your PM, don't worry - they're only two good gins away from quitting their job anyway.

I'd warrant it's probably the highest staff turnover job in the country. Basic formula: Crap job, crap staff, crap prospects, crap service. There are a few exceptions, of course. They can be found where the PM makes a profit for the agency, so you have to pay for it if you can get it.

If anybody tells me they're delighted to be a PM I know I'm talking to a professional bin-liner. A decent PM is on their way out and onto better things, above all building their own portfolio, and is paid enough to do it.

The solution is independent PMs, but that's another name for PIs.

Delighted to be a PM? lol not quite sure that would be the word i would use... for me it is a love/hate situation. I love that the job is challenging and is never the same each day, i love that after 15 years as a PM i still learn new things everyday, i love the rare few owners and tenants who say a simple thank you and appreciate how hard i work, they are the ones who make it worth while. I hate that people automatically assume that we are idiots and incompetent, i hate that people think that we should be pad a pittance and yet be experts in every building/property/legal/psychological field. I wish that everyone who beats up against a PM could sit for just one hour quietly in the corner of the room and watch us work and then perhaps some may understand that we are in a job where we will never make everyone happy. One of the two parties will be pissed off, and even when its not our fault we will be deemed responsible anyway. But thankfully i run my own business and my fellow directors are also passionate about this industry and understand that to attract quality PM's you go the extra mile, that the Directors have to pull out their wallets to pay them what they are worth.

there just isnt too many people that can put up with being abused all day, every day (even Christmas day) and never get thanks for very long, they will move on pretty quickly.

As for the original question of this post....i disagree with the fact that it should be a flat fee. higher end properties are more work, higher end clients are generally more demanding of your time (both tenants and owners), larger houses means more work, longer and more time consuming reports etc. But i would challenge you to find a PM would wouldn't negotiate down on the % for a higher end property because there is more room to move.

At the end of the day it is each to his own... there will be agents who offer cut price rates and will give cut price service, there will be those who offer higher rates and higher service and a mix of the two. I charge reasonably high fees, i will negotiate to a degree, but i wont discount the service i provide to you, so why should i accept a discounted fee from you? I can guarantee the owners who badger the PMs down to nothing will also be the same owners who bust your chops every other day and cause the most work and the most stress... they can go to the agent down the road... i prefer high quality owners and tenants but thats just me :)
 
I agree that many of the higher end properties also attract better quality tenants, although in the area I work in it does take a lot more work to let those type of properties.

I'm out in the suburbs, so anything over say the $400 mark usually takes a little longer to lease than your lower end properties because the area in which I work isn't a great and if you do have $400 odd to burn each week on rent you're going to want somewhere closer to the city, newer or in a better area of the poor suburbs - Which we don't have a great deal of!

So this means, more inspections (and more private inspections at that, as lower end properties we can do 1-2 OFI's and let it), usually they will be larger properties too (because of the area you're not looking at a 1-2 bed apartment) which take more time to do outgoing/ingoing/routine inspections on, etc.

If I were to discount anything I would be more likely to discount the letting fee (from a business perspective, not because I ever see any of that money :rolleyes: ). Why? Because the management fee is where you make the money and it is also the saleable asset of the rent role, although again it takes less time and effort to manage a higher end property, but perhaps more time and effort to lease that property. Bit of a catch 22 I think.

Why? Because it's a thankless, hateful, totally unrewarding occupation.

I'd warrant it's probably the highest staff turnover job in the country. Basic formula: Crap job, crap staff, crap prospects, crap service.

If anybody tells me they're delighted to be a PM I know I'm talking to a professional bin-liner. A decent PM is on their way out and onto better things, above all building their own portfolio, and is paid enough to do it.

Hiya Belbo! You're right, it is thankless and everyone hates us, I also agree that it has the highest turn over of staff too, since I started a year ago with my current company I have seen 4 PM's leave in that time.

Now, I'm not delighted to be a PM - But I do like my job, sometimes. You have the odd few that are very appreciative, which certainly doesn't make up for those PIA's, but it helps.

The main reason many PM's hate their jobs (IMHO), is because they don't think their approach through and don't know how to mould themselves to suit different personalities, therefore have many more clashes with tenants. You need to understand the personality you're dealing with to take the best approach and get the best outcome for everyone.

The way I play it is, even though I work for the best interest of my landlord I always make the tenant feel needed/appreciated, however you wish to put it and never get on my high horse about rent arrears and routine inspections. Yes I tell them how it is, I evict them if needs be and send out the appropriate notices, but I have seen many people at my own company who have burst into tears from others being rude to them about arrears. This is because they act superior to the tenant, who then becomes defensive and doesn't want to talk to you and that's how the problems arise.

I bet there could be a lot less problems in the industry between the PM's and tenants ('cause lets face it, if your tenant doesn't like your PM they're less likely to cooperate) if the PM didn't try to over shadow the tenants and made them feel a little more important to the whole cycle. Even if we do actually work for the landlord.
 
Investors will always want to pay less, so I am not surprised with the positive feedback. However I have always felt that there is a disconnect between peoples expectations on PM and the price they are willing to pay for good PM'ent. Soft dollar and hidden costs of bad PM'ent far exceed a reduction in fees from say 7% to 6% or even to 5%. But that's the inevitable competitive tension in the market between buyers and sellers of PM services.

I think in any industry, those practitioners always want to be protective of what they charge, and if they perceive a new pricing model is a race to the bottom (with fees), its understandable that they are less than enthusiastic.

And if you have a race to the bottom in fees, how are you going to afford to pay for quality people?

Do you have a sustainable business if you are competing in a services business purely on price?
 
You know, most agencies probably only just cover costs on PM. The money's in sales commission; PM just provides coverage and exposure, on a very good day.

I do know. I spent the most boring year of my life office managing a RE agency once upon a time. Met the entire 'corporate team' in a big company over that sorrowful year. Believe me: REs employ only the absolute dregs for staff - PMs most of all - and they're the cream of the agency staff. Good ones average $60 to $70K a year, for ulcers all that would rival Ol' Smokey!

Why? Because it's a thankless, hateful, totally unrewarding occupation (the end of end for the ambitious but unqualified, basically), and if you're not happy with your PM, don't worry - they're only two good gins away from quitting their job anyway.

I'd warrant it's probably the highest staff turnover job in the country. Basic formula: Crap job, crap staff, crap prospects, crap service. There are a few exceptions, of course. They can be found where the PM makes a profit for the agency, so you have to pay for it if you can get it.

If anybody tells me they're delighted to be a PM I know I'm talking to a professional bin-liner. A decent PM is on their way out and onto better things, above all building their own portfolio, and is paid enough to do it.

The solution is independent PMs, but that's another name for PIs.


My partner was a resi PM. She started in the RE and worked her way from reception through to assistant, through to senior PM. She is one of those people that would never leave the office till things were done, went out of her way at all times of the day and night to help people, and she was luck if she even got a thank you. And yet she still get routinely abused by tenants because a neighbour had a party that was too loud, or a window leaked, or some leaves were in a gutter, and it WAS ALL HER FAULT in their eyes.

12 months ago, I convinced her to join one of the global commercial property firms, and she hasn't looked back.

Since then, probably 5-6 PMs have been cycled through her portfolio at her old work, each one apparently worse than the last. She has had old landlords pleading with her to help them with their property. She has even had old landlords looking her up on Facebook to try and get in touch.

Oh, and did I mention that the money they pay PMs for their 60 odd hour working week is appalling.

Longwinded post, apologies.
 
Thanks for the response

I don’t see myself as a discount agency and there are not many agencies who would not take on a property that rents for $300pw at a management fee of 8%

My fees I have worked out from working in 2 large agencies and one small. working on their average management fees taken for their whole portfolio and other factors.

My staff will be working on a performance base wage and I have complete confidence in my numbers that I can not only make a profit but have a high level of service.

Yes being a pm is a thankless job and a lot of the time it comes down to the working conditions and technology the office uses.

Regarding more work for the higher properties I think in the end it all works it out some cheaper properties will take more to manage than the higher ones

And it normally averages its self out .
 
ime
A good PM is always cheap, and a bad one always way too expensive.
And that includes managed units where 42% of gross rent was being paid out.
 
If you can make it work then good on you! I do a flat fee for LEASING a property but still charge the % for management. In my experience and area, higher end properties really are hard work but no more so than a lower end property. The landlord really expects a lot more and so does the tenant BECAUSE it is a higher end property. Landlords are less inclined to believe in fair wear and tear in a higher end property and tenants are harder to negotiate bond reductions. Higher end properties have some really amazing tenant requests and often result in negotiations between the landlord and tenant as to who will pay what % of installation etc. Far more additional clauses to be written into the lease and to find the right tenant it is a lot more work. Add to this that they are often new and maintenance falls under builders warranty and you've opened a whole new can of worms. Lower end properties are hard work too, they are older and have more maintenance issues. Easier to find a good family who can afford the rent yes but the ongoing management is just as time consuming.

Belbo - Delighted isn't a word I would really use but I do LOVE my job. If you had've asked me 12 months ago when I was managing over 200 mostly poor quality properties for little to no pay then my answer was still the same. Love the work, need to find a new place to do it! Both Goofy and Lil Skater are right - it can be a thankless job. PM's are always the first person the blame is laid on even if we are the last to know (people don't always think to inform us of anything). We have to follow the Act and do things inside the law which landlords get angry for because it takes time, we have to get quotes to coordinate maintenance which tenants get angry about because it can take a little time.

With my landlords & tenants where I am now, I get at least 3 emails or phone calls a week from landlords or tenants just to say thank you and that makes up for all of the abuse and horrid things that may happen.

It's all just another challange and that is why we do it. No two days are ever the same, you will always find something that surprises you no matter how long you've been doing it & there is always a challange. A good PM is a person who likes to be challanged!!

If you're happy with your PM and you haven't said thanks in awhile, do so, it will make their day!!!
 
With PM fees ranging tup to 18% of total incoming rent, especially for the lower priced proiperties where some things are fixed price and therefore a higher %age than they woudl be of a more expensive rental, how much extra do you think is fair to charge for these Rachel ?:confused:
Was 20% for me because they had a minimum management fee. Which is why I didn't go with a PM.

Giving our house one last chance to sell (with an agent) before I go back to landlording it again.
 
You know, most agencies probably only just cover costs on PM. The money's in sales commission; PM just provides coverage and exposure, on a very good day.

I do know. I spent the most boring year of my life office managing a RE agency once upon a time. Met the entire 'corporate team' in a big company over that sorrowful year. Believe me: REs employ only the absolute dregs for staff - PMs most of all - and they're the cream of the agency staff. Good ones average $60 to $70K a year, for ulcers all that would rival Ol' Smokey!

Why? Because it's a thankless, hateful, totally unrewarding occupation (the end of end for the ambitious but unqualified, basically), and if you're not happy with your PM, don't worry - they're only two good gins away from quitting their job anyway.

I'd warrant it's probably the highest staff turnover job in the country. Basic formula: Crap job, crap staff, crap prospects, crap service. There are a few exceptions, of course. They can be found where the PM makes a profit for the agency, so you have to pay for it if you can get it.

If anybody tells me they're delighted to be a PM I know I'm talking to a professional bin-liner. A decent PM is on their way out and onto better things, above all building their own portfolio, and is paid enough to do it.

The solution is independent PMs, but that's another name for PIs.


Completely agree. My wife used to run a team of 15 property managers. I have never heard of so much scandalous behaviour from young women (my wife not included).. There were love affairs, drug binges (not coming in for a week because of binging), having sex in rental properties etc etc.. She was paid 80k a year 3 years ago which was great money but she got out (thankfully - it was doing my head in) and went into commercial property then banking. Yes, the good ones disappear pretty quickly, yes there are a lot of dregs in property management.
 
I no longer think about PM fees. I'll always ask for a discount but there is little to no correlation between what you pay and the service you receive.
 
Does your PM fees includes the PM for going to inspect a maintenance "request"?

My PM in Melb West rang me for a few items to be fixed but she never verified it with the tenant. Things like HWS can't be turn on, water on both toilet bowls so suspecting leaking, etc.

HOw hard it is to go to the property and inspect it to make sure it's really a maintenance issue and not because the tenant didn't know how to light up the HWS? or kids splashing water in the bathroom?

I asked for the PM to go and have a look, she said I could go myself if I wanted to but she wouldn't.

So I was thinking why should i ever bother to pay her the management fees if all she does is send tradies out whenever the tenants claimed something?

She said tradies will report to agent if it's tenant's fault however, i doubt this as I've seen too many tradies whom will help the tenants by giving wrong reports.
 
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