How dumb can you be and still breathe (and not be institutionalised)????

One of my tenants had a routine inspection and we received the regular letter telling us there were a few minor issues and that there was a bad leak under the sink that needed urgent attention.

Hubby goes to have a look and comes back a couple of hours later to collect more tools and me. I get there and he has completely removed the shelf in the cupboard under the sink as well as the base, but left the rotting kickboard and door where they are. The floor is covered in water and the cork varnished tiles have lifted badly. He has pulled up some of them, however towards the middle of the room they are stuck solid. At the end of the room they are lifting also.

Apparently the drain was not connected. The newer plastic pipe is a bit smaller than the older imperial ones and when it was connected, whoever did it just inserted the pipe into the other one and did not seal it up. This was not apparent as this connection was underneath the kitchen in the space where the kickback is. Whenever she uses her sink, the water just empties onto the floor. She admitted that it has been like this for around 3 months and did nothing about it. I'd even like to bet that it is worse than Rumpled's swamppy bathroom from another thread, because not only is the whole area a quagmire, it is very badly mouldy. So bad, in fact, that I have no idea what to do.

The first thing I notice is the smell of mould and that the floors are kind of squishy. I go outside to ring the PM. She knew it was bad, but not this bad. She comes out straight away and takes photos.

We talked about the fact that the middle of the floor was somewhat drier than either end. Obviously the sink was the cause of one end, but the tenant's fridge, we are sure is the cause at the other end. We open it and notice the bottom crisper is full of water, and the freezer is full of funny looking icy stuff. PM takes photo's of this before she calls tenant into the room and asks point blank if the fridge leaks, and tenant says "no", which is an outright lie.

We study the area and open the cupboards and notice there is heavy mould in the cupboards on which her "stuff" is sitting. PM tells the tenant to remove all her stuff from the cupboards so they can air & dry out and that we will come back next week to see if there is anything we can do. She has been given strict instructions not to use the kitchen and to have the windows open when at home as well as keeping the kitchen cupboards open.

I really need her out of there as soon as possible as obviously the mould issue needs to be dealt with. How to deal with it, I don't know. I have no idea how far it has spread. The whole room really needs to be gutted. I can't have her living there while we do that, besides, she would only wreck any new stuff that is done to the place.

Now, I am faced with a problem. What to do?? If I try to evict her, the PM says that she will not move and it will have to go to tribunal. No-one will touch her once they see her record of haphazid payments AS WELL as this. She will be listed on TICA, and won't find it easy to get another place to live. Depending on who is the judge at tribunal will depend on the outcome. With the bad mould in place, it could backfire and I be held liable should she get sick, and have to pay damages. I'm not liking that option.

We could leave her there & give a huge $50pw rent rise, to force her out, however, again we will have to wait for the tribunal. Not great either.

BTW, another example of the mentality of this woman. She told Hubby that the smoke extinguisher did not work. He took it down to look at it. Instead of a 9v battery, there were 2 AA batteries squished in side by side. I wonder why it didn't work?

So, has anyone got any advice about how I should deal with this? What are the legal issues? Is it likely to be covered by insurance, I'm with NRMA, by the way?

Please Dazz, don't bother replying with your smug replies about the folly of Resi, that is antagonistic, not constructive.
 
If she is up to date with her rent i suppose there's not alot you can do i think.You can't kick her out for being stupid. I'd make a claim on LL insurance and accept it par for the course as a landlord. Which it is.

You cant expect all your tenants to be intelligent, responsible people, especially in low income areas do you Skater?
 
I think claiming the whole "fix" on insurance sounds good assuming this is covered. Either way, can you not get her out on the "not habitable" or "emergency repair" or "unfit for habitation" rules?

I am not sure about these having never used them but they have been mentioned on SS so that might get them out.

Whilst I applaud your concern that they will find it hard to find somewhere else to move, if your place is "uninhabitable" due to you having to rip the kitchen out, then it is not your concern and they will have to find something somewhere.
 
With water leaks, you can claim to cost of repairing the damage, but not the cost of trying to find the leak. Perhaps this will work for you. One thing I have learnt in life, and especially in driving a car, is to never assume that others are as intelligent as you are. Seems like you have found a doozy though. And how do these people do things like, well, survive in this crazy world.
 
If she is up to date with her rent i suppose there's not alot you can do i think.You can't kick her out for being stupid. I'd make a claim on LL insurance and accept it par for the course as a landlord. Which it is.

You cant expect all your tenants to be intelligent, responsible people, especially in low income areas do you Skater?

With all due respect Evand, I am aware that not all people are intelligent, nor are they all responsible. That goes without saying, and it applies no matter what income levels, too. BUT, fair go, if you are living in a home that has huge amounts of water gushing out over the floor for months on end, whenever you turn the tap on, AND DON"T THINK IT NEEDS MENTIONING, then that goes beyond the relms of sanity.

Crikey, the woman walks around the house in bare feet, in the middle of winter and her kitchen floor is covered in water. Sheesh! I think the woman must have had a labotomy.

There are many things that I consider "par for the course of being a Landlord", including her d1ck head son, who lives out the back in the sleep out. He lost his key and kicked the door down to get in. She tried to tell us that it wore out, so needs a new lock. That's been fixed now.

Anyway, she has to go. The house could be health risk if we can't control the mould.
 
Whilst I applaud your concern that they will find it hard to find somewhere else to move, if your place is "uninhabitable" due to you having to rip the kitchen out, then it is not your concern and they will have to find something somewhere.

Wylie, I am not at all concerned that they will find it hard to find somewhere. My concern is that it could take some time to get rid of them, thus making the problem worse, as the mould has to be stopped.
 
Seems like you have found a doozy though. And how do these people do things like, well, survive in this crazy world.

Like you, I have found that there are many people who seem to function on a different level. What I find hard to believe is that this woman has a job. I don't know how, I don't know where, but I would consider her unemployable.
 
A question about "emergency repair". Having never gone down this path before, how does that work? Am I liable to pay for her accommodation while the place is unfit for habitation?
 
Like you, I have found that there are many people who seem to function on a different level. What I find hard to believe is that this woman has a job. I don't know how, I don't know where, but I would consider her unemployable.

Maybe she works in one of those call centres that we all find so bloody infuriating to deal with. The ones that go round and round in circles (not the Indian ones). I suspect though, she really just doesnt give a hoot about the property - doesnt belong to her so why bother dealing with it. And lies to make things suit her needs when it comes to the time when something has to be done to fix it.
 
Maybe she works in one of those call centres that we all find so bloody infuriating to deal with. The ones that go round and round in circles (not the Indian ones). I suspect though, she really just doesnt give a hoot about the property - doesnt belong to her so why bother dealing with it. And lies to make things suit her needs when it comes to the time when something has to be done to fix it.

Nah, couldn't be a call centre. At least the Indian ones kinda speak English. She does speak some English, but is harder to understand than any call centre operator that I have dealt with, & I have dealt with some real doozies.

I understand the not caring bit. I don't approve, but I understand. What I don't understand is that would you not want this fixed ASAP for your own comfort. Cold wet feet in the middle of winter is not desireable.
 
When I used the word "concern" I was not really meaning your concern about her finding somewhere else, but more from the point of view that her problem finding something else makes it harder to get her out.

That is why the "get out before the mould hurts your family" and/or "the kitchen must be pulled out and it will be uninhabitable for six weeks" route could be the best way to get them out.

Believe me, I am all for being fair and reasonable but once a tenant "gets smart" I soon get "smart" back.

Could your insurance company or PM tell you the rules and whether you have to compensate them. I could check the Queensland legislation but that is no help to you. Your PM should be able to answer this very quickly and if your insurer confirms that the house is "uninhabitable" you can get them out without penalty to you, fingers crossed. Worth following up anyway.

Good luck. We just got rid of some tenants that turned bad so I emphathise.
 
She won’t be listed on TICA until after evicted though?

Can you speak to her regarding moving out, explaining you will now have to undertake renovations due to damage caused?

Are the haphazard payments all with you?

If you are sure that nothing is going to change, then you need a new tenant. The decision is made, now you just have to sort the process. Documentation sounds like a must-have.

We feel for you, hope it all gets resolved
 
The answer is: really, really dumb. As in, quite brain damaged (motor accidents) and I'm not being rude or non-PC here, some people can function reasonably well with rather a few stubbies short of a 6-pack as long as they keep to simple things. Or *cough* live in the country in really small towns ... people who are actually too far gone to cope well with society's norms but not too far gone to end up on the streets seem to end up in tiny towns in frightening numbers.

I'd even like to bet that it is worse than Rumpled's swamppy bathroom from another thread, because not only is the whole area a quagmire, it is very badly mouldy. So bad, in fact, that I have no idea what to do.
Of course yours is worse :p Heavy condensation and a drippy roof in a small *tiled* room with a floor drain and impermeable surfaces is going to be way drier than running water in a room with no floor drain and porous surfaces (and porous cupboards) any day. Kitchens are only designed to get wet in a very small area.

Even if your floor is concrete not wood, speaking from our minor flood the other year, you're going to have to wait quite some time for that floor to dry out to re-cover it unless you can blast it with hot air for a few days or something. That's no overnight fix. And kitchen sink water is full of grease and gunk so if that's soaked into the floor its going to be horrible.

I really don't envy your situation.
 
Hi Skater,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I would contact the insurers as quick as possible.

Looking at this from a totally neutral perspective, you have a contract with her called a lease that provides her with habitable accommodation. I believe that you would have to find her acceptable accommodation (to her) while repairs are carried out. This is where your LL insurance would become involved, as well as the damage caused by the tenant.

However, your building insurance co is whom looks after the damage from the sink. Sounds like you will have 2 lots of excess to pay, and 2 insurers trying to fob off paying stating it's the other ones responsibility.

This will be a test of just how good your insurance is, as there could be much further damage if the damp got into the walls with dry rot/termites etc. Get a professional building inspector to look for this.

Good luck.

bye
 
You should issue immediate termination notice - you can do this under the act (NSW), disconnect the kitchen fully - disconnect the plumbing and electricity to the kitchen because of the risk, allow 7 days for the tenant to vacate and when they don't make application to the tribunal. In the mean time contact insurance company and prepare trades-persons.
 
Apparently the drain was not connected. The newer plastic pipe is a bit smaller than the older imperial ones and when it was connected, whoever did it just inserted the pipe into the other one and did not seal it up.

Agreed TF. This seems to be the root cause from what has been posted thus far. Nothing to do with Tenant initially it would appear.

Tenant subsequently not notifying the Landlord upon first noticing something was awry during that 3 month period has definitely exacerbated the problem however, and therefore led to the majority of damage that skater talks of.

As wylie alluded to, comfort levels of the Tenant must have been compromised, so the lack of due notice by the Tenant to the Landlord is indeed nonsensical. Landlord not to blame there.....unless it showed up on a previous property inspection report. Doesn't sound like it did.

Good luck to Andrew and yourself with firstly tenant eviction, secondly repairing the root cause and getting property back on market and thirdly recovering any applicable funds from insurance companies.

As usual, all of the grief and vexation shall be in the first step, although I suspect step three might be difficult as well.
 
Who did the plumbing work? That particular drop-kick is responsible for the damage.

You are right, however it was like that when the house was bought. The connection in question was sitting in the cavity between the floor and the cabinet, behind the kickboard. No way of knowing there was a problem until you pull it out.
 
Agreed TF. This seems to be the root cause from what has been posted thus far. Nothing to do with Tenant initially it would appear.
You are right. The root cause of the problem was not the tenant. I have no issue with the tenant on this regard..
Tenant subsequently not notifying the Landlord upon first noticing something was awry during that 3 month period has definitely exacerbated the problem however, and therefore led to the majority of damage that skater talks of.

As wylie alluded to, comfort levels of the Tenant must have been compromised, so the lack of due notice by the Tenant to the Landlord is indeed nonsensical. Landlord not to blame there.....unless it showed up on a previous property inspection report. Doesn't sound like it did.

The tenant has been at the property for a number of years. She does have an idiot son that may have fiddled with the pipe, I don't know. What I do know is that her not reporting the matter is what has caused the damage. Nothing like this has showed up in an inspection or it would have been fixed.
Good luck to Andrew and yourself with firstly tenant eviction, secondly repairing the root cause and getting property back on market and thirdly recovering any applicable funds from insurance companies.

As usual, all of the grief and vexation shall be in the first step, although I suspect step three might be difficult as well.

Thankyou TPFKAD. We are certainly going to have fun with this one. Lucky I like lemonade.:D
 
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May I suggest you and Andrew have a look under the NSW RTA section 26.


I would be inclined to send them an immediate breach notice under section 26.1.b and 26.1.c. and whilst at it, send off a letter of demand from your solicitor for damages incurred.


Lots of photos to back up your story - hundreds of 'em.


http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforce/act+26+1987+FIRST+0+N#pt.3-div.1-sec.26


26 Cleanliness, notification of damage to residential premises etc

(1) It is a term of every residential tenancy agreement that:
(a) having regard to the condition of the residential premises at the commencement of the tenancy, the tenant shall keep the residential premises in a reasonable state of cleanliness,
(b) the tenant shall, as soon as practicable, notify the landlord of any damage to the residential premises,
(c) the tenant shall not intentionally or negligently cause or permit any damage to the residential premises,
 
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