How to pay off debt?

Hi guys,

To give you some background, I have two properties, both at 80% LVR of 2 year-old valuation. I also have $197,000 of "personal debt". I tried refinancing, and got approval, but valuations are coming back totally crap! So I need to find other means to pay off debt.

With the current interest on this personal debt (CCs, tax, F&F, etc), I am going backwards about 2k per month (after NET salary+rent). So I am curious if any of you guys have gone through debt restructuring exercises and perhaps could share your experience and advice on how to overcome this mountain... cause at the moment, it's very depressing. :(

Thank you in advance.

Iggy
 
Iggy, how were you planning on reducing your personal debt from refinancing if the valuations came up good??
 
Rixter said:
Iggy, how were you planning on reducing your personal debt from refinancing if the valuations came up good??

Well the current rates that I am paying for the personal debt is from 16% to 27% (with some F&F debt at low % tho) By restructuring it under 6.6% I would have an extra $2000-3000 a month, which I could use to bring down my total debt level over a period of time.
 
Rolf Latham said:
ouch

sounds like LMI might be a very low cost in comparison ..............

Look to refi to 90 or 95 % perhaps ?

ta

rolf

Thanks Rolf, that's the only feasable option I've found so far.

Iggy
 
$197,000 is quite a bit of debt.

Have you thought about:
  • getting new credit cards, then transferring the balance from whatever other debt source onto the card for around 5-6% finance? make sure if you do this you get rid of your old cards etc so you dont end up in more debt
  • refinancing to 90%-95% which should be possible if you have good income and only 2 properties
  • go to another bank and see if they will take on your business and as part of this the valuations may come out better?
  • can you superficially do them up a bit (ie paint, spruce) to assist get better valuations?
  • channelling rent income into your personal debt and capitilising your property costs & interest onto your refinanced IP loans or credit cards to turn bad debt into good debt that is tax deductible.
  • getting a personal loan to refinance some of it at around 10%
  • cutting down your living costs? i have heard of some people who need to save up money really quickly, that they commit to spending 3 months spending as little money as possible (ie no meals out, no extra treats for the month) and you tell all your friends so they understand and dont tempt you to go out during this period
  • selling one or both of your IP's to realise some cash to offset your personal debt
  • getting a part time job (ie working in a bar at nights or taking on extra work in your field) maybe just over summer to pick up some extra cash)

Because the personal debt is quite high, whatever you do you need to commit to a strategy that gets rid of this debt asap otherwise at a $2k cashflow deficit per month, your situation will be compounded by $24k plus per year.

hope this helps

best wishes

Corsa
 
Hi Iggy,

Wow! You've got a big job ahead of you!

Maybe you could get some help to implement some (or all) or Corsa's excellent ideas. If you google "debt coach" there are lots of hits. Some of these look like straight mortgage brokers, but some seem to be actively involved in coaching you with reducing debt. It might be good to have some help??!!

Cheers, Medine
 
John Burleys book -money secrets of the rich has a good way of reducing debt - debt terminator plan
It goes something like this
Write down all your debts by name
underneath that write down the balance
then the minimum monthly balance
Divide current total balance by the minimum monthly balance to get a payment to debt ratio
The ratio nos should be used to determine which debt to pay off first
rank them by lowest ratio - to highest ratio

Start with nos 1 payoff priority - paying extra into that - then keep minimum monthly balance to the others.

He makes it mechanical and automatic by diverting 10% of income to this. Obviously you will need to divert more of your income.

Actually you should buy that book - lots of little tips

If refinancing to 95% - note if you pay off personal debt the interest will no longer be tax deductable
You will still be ahead tho given the high interest rates
So you will be getting money for 6.7% instead of 15% etc.

Sell some stuff on ebay - its amazing what you can get

Any shares laying around or other assets, sell

With that amount of debt Id also consider reluctantly selling a house esp when u are losing 2k/mth

Get a tax variation - so your tax refund comes early - and use this to pay off debt
 
Corsa has some very good ideas. I think the main one is to try and re-finance so you are paying lower interest rates - either by arranging a loan to 95% on your property or a lower interest rate credit card or personal loan.

And the other one is - try and stop accruing any more bad dept! :D , although you are on the right track by visiting this forum :)

Oh, and leave the tax debt - it is only about 12% interest rate and I am pretty sure it is tax deductable! :)

Cheers
Mike F
 
Hello, Iggy,

I have no idea what the debt consists of, but if some of that debt is on a new $75,000 luxury car, or small boat for instance, you could consider selling those. A small car around $5,000—$15,000 should be a good 'investment', in my opinion.

Sorry, I can't think of anything else... :eek:
 
Firstly thank you to everyone for your valuable replies.
Secondly, I've just had some fantastic news, that one of my properties got valued at a good price and will allow me to pay off 110k of debt (ie with equity). A tax return will also settle another 15k, so all in all I am up to 125k. I've also just had a Citibank Visa upgraded to a platinum who have a 4.9% balance transfer option (4.9% for the LIFE of teh balance) so I am going to transfer two cards to that.

After a few more calculations, I have managed to get my "real" debt level down to 75k or so, with 55k of that is to F&F which can be paid over a year.

In terms of your suggestions, I have already followed, or planned to follow many of them, such as cutting back on living expenses. I managed to cut these down by over 50% (luckily I could move back in with my parents).

For my January scenario, I am back in a +$2300p/m position (salary increase helped!) which I will use fully to pay off any debt that is left, and then to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I can. Then in a year, I hope to be back in a position to buy property again.

Mike - Yeah this forum is great. I've been on Somersoft for about 4 years (before it got this nice interface! ;) ).

I started investing in RE when I was 21, and had around $3m of property and stock by 23. But then I made some very bad calls and lost ... well... just about everything. Now at 25, I am rebuilding my "fortune" and the 197k of debt is part of my stupidity as an immature youngster ;)

I would have to say that being part of this board had a GREAT deal to do with me building such a property portfolio so quickly. :)
 
Iggy_Type_R said:
I started investing in RE when I was 21, and had around $3m of property and stock by 23. But then I made some very bad calls and lost ... well... just about everything. Now at 25, I am rebuilding my "fortune" and the 197k of debt is part of my stupidity as an immature youngster ;)

Hey Iggy, glad to hear there's light at the end of the trouble.. if you were willing, would you be able to expand on the above?
 
Iggy_Type_R said:
Do you mean on the stupidity or the building up? :)

Why not both.. love to hear how you did it.. and what went wrong.. It really sounds like there's some valuable lessons in both aspects there that could well benefit us all?
 
Sure...

At 21, I was just over a year out of an IT degree, with a nice consulting job with a small global consulting company, earning around 70k. But as you do, I bought a nice sports car, had a place at Bondi Beach overlooking the beach, etc etc. I was going NOWHERE in terms of money. Then one our family friends gave me a book called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" and things just CLICKED into place. I foudn this forum and started reading books like crazy. About one a week about property. Then I went to a Dolf De Roos intro seminar (freebie) and bought his book "Real Estate Riches". And decided to follow the formula of buy, renovate and keep.

I borrowed 40k from F&F to buy my first house. Spent about 10k renovating (used a handy man, I am totally useless at these things) and revalued to give me another 60k I think. 6 months later, I found a great little unit in St Kilda East and bought that using the LOC (I became friendly with a broker, who I've been using for the last 4 years and highly recommend!). This one was a gold mine (you can search through some of my older posts for penny by penny detail) but I spent 6k on reno which gave me a 130k increase in value!!!! :)
Then I moved to Brisbane to work on a cleint site and really wanted to buy a place there. I saw a GREAT penthouse overlooking the city on the river street at Kangaroo point... could have had it for just over 400k!!! Damn! Worth 2m+ now. :( But in any case, I got tipped off that Townsville would be a good buy. So I bought a block of flats there. I went back to the original house I bought and revaluedt hat, which allowed me to buy another duplex in Townsville. Then I also bought (but had not settled yet) two more blocks of flats there. Somehwere in there, a financial advisor suggested that I get geared equities to offset my growing salary (90k by that stage, at 23). I starta-titled my block and revalued it, giving me an increase of 100% on purchase price. It was also returning 13% on purchase price. So GREAT deal :)

Then I got invited to this place in Sydney to meet these guys who were setting up a buisiness that looked really good. They invited me to join, but said that I would need to put money in, only about 50k, to get in as I was last one in. Stupidly I agreed, and quit my job. A week before settlement on those two blocks, the bank called my employer for a checkup... it didn't go down well that I quit. I lost 4 loans that day, and had to scrable for a lo-doc alternative and could't settle 2 properties. WHich resulted in all sorts of ****.

On teh buisness side, it went downhill veyr quickly, and I ended up pouring around 200k into it, and because it brought no money in, I basically had CC debts accumilating and all sorts of **** going wrong (taxes, etc). With no income, I had to get into the business I am in now (IT services consulting) to try to build up some money.

The funny thing about debt and all that is that when you're going downhill... it's like a snowball. It ALL goes so wrong, you don't know where you're gonna get hit from! So stress, breakdowns, etc piled on like you wouldn't believe. So 2 years, no income, no money, HUGE debts ... that's how you end up with 197k of personal debt. BUt I worked very hard on the business and in 2 years built it up to a $1m+ business, which has given me a salary that I can live on, and as pointed out in a previous post, pay off my debts.

The lessons I learnt are:
* don't run too fast, you can really hurt yourself.
* create a plan and stick to it. I had a plan to have 5m of property by 24, and I was SO close to it, but I deviated from the plan, and screwed up.
* build a GREAT team (accountant, solicitor, fin. planner and broker) whi you can TRUST
* don't get into business with peopel you don't know or haven't worked with in the past
* Don't be the only schmuk putting money into a biz. You'd be amazed how people treat the biz if they didn't put a cent in!
* turst you gut feel (if you can hear it, if you can' tlearn how to listen to it!)
* experiment, and don' tbe afraid of failing. It's part of the game. I nearly bought a block of 32 flats in Auckland when I was 22, but stuffed up, but learnt A GREAT deal.
* read books, but don't fall into paralysis of analysis
* stay focused on the goal - no matter how hard it gets, keep your eye on the ball! A great phrase I read once is "Obstacles are those things we see when we take our eye off the goal"
* have fun doing it. don't take life too seriously
* there are people out there with problems 100000 times worse than yours, so don't bitch and moan!

I guess that's the main thing. I hope it's helpful... :)
 
duncan_m said:
Thanks, that was a great read! Really appreciate your openess.. sounds like you're on your way again!
No prob :)

and I certainly hope I am on my way again! The most painful thing is the "could've had" syndrome!
 
Thanks Iggy. I really appreciate the detail too. So many come here to the forum and are afraid or embarassed to talk about mistakes. When in fact, mistakes are arguably the most powerful teachers you can have.

I am still suffering from being burnt by one of my best (ex) friends. So I would add to your lessons, that:

- you not even blindly trust your friends in business. You have to do your own research and get second opinions about everything, until you can assess the risks and opportunities yourself. A friend might not intentionally want to rip you off, but if they are naive, and they get into deep water financially, you just don't know how the stress will make them react. They could try and cover up things, or go deeper into a hole trying to recover, and take you with them. I'll relay more about this matter when ASIC and the administrators are through.

- that you never ever under any circumstances lend anyone money unsecured, including your best friends. If their company is wound up, unsecured investors are the sheep at the back of the queue. You also want to factor in what happens if the borrower gets hit by a bus or can't earn an income for a year or four. ALWAYS ALWAYS use a solicitor to approve private loan documents before lending. And make sure you understand the pros and cons.


Man, your story drives home how important secure cash flow are when borrowing to leverage, though in reality being a PAYE employee isn't stable these days. That's the one thing I try and tell young people- get your cash flows up and stable, and cut your discretionary spending. Makes all the difference when trying to get a loan.
 
P.S. what's the story behind your name Iggy Type R?

and for anyone who was wondering why I call myself thefirstbruce, it goes back to when I was looking for an email address at hotmail in 1995? I think. All the obvious permutations on Bruce were taken, and I was told spammers would hit email accounts of people who use standard conventions for email account names. I've never had a big problem with spammers with thefirstbruce.
 
That is so true! Friends and money can be a killer.

About cashflow - I learnt a VERY important lesson with both property AND business... CASH IS KING. no arguments, no IFs or BUTs, cash will make or break you. Cash is your blood and Cashflow is the heart that pumps it. Luckily I was smarter with the business, so when we were growing very fast, making great profit, we were running out of cash and then some! But I organised a facility with the bank to fund us which basically saved the company from going under due to GROWTH. It's ironic, but it does happen. That's wha tI meant in my first lesson pointer... you run too fast, you run out of cash, you're bankrupt. Plan effectively.
 
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