Is renting better for us?

Hi everyone

I have asked this question before about rent vs buy and what would be smarter from a property investors point of view. We are saving for our PPOR deposit currently, but i'm thinking what if we used that money to purchase our 1st investment property and rent instead? I realise we would need to find a place to rent cheaper than what our investment brought in.
Suggestions more than welcome! :confused:
 
Kate

There are a number of investors - including alexlee on SS - who have purchased several IPs before they bought their PPOR. Others (like hubby and me) like the security of owning their own home and being able to do what they want with it. Certainly in the current rental environment, it would appear to make much more financial sense to rent and purchase an IP (or two or ...) first.

It comes down to 'horses for courses' really - check out the figures on renting vs buying PPOR. Think about how you feel - is having your own little nest a priority, or wouldn't it bother you? Then when you have made your decision, get out there and DO IT!

In 15 or 20 years time, the thing that will matter the most is that you've actually done something. :)

Cheers
LynnH
 
Financially, given a rental yield of, say, 5%, you're better off buying IPs. You get all the deductions, depreciation, flexibility of renting and perhaps most importantly, you are more likely to view an IP as an investment/business. i.e. you're less likely to over-renovate, and more likely to refinance to buy more property (harder to put debt 'back' on 'your home').

For a young person with no family, I would definitely suggest buying IPs first.

However, having a PPOR gives you a lot of emotional value. The risk I see with buying your PPOR first is that you end up wanting to 'own your own home' so much that you put far too much money into paying off your PPOR loan and neglect your other investments. It's easy to fall into the trap of 'I'll pay off our home and then think about investing', as many do. You end up losing 20 years of returns because you're too focused on cutting the PPOR mortgage.
Alex
 
Just keep in mind there are CGT advantages to selling/trading up PPOR's.

On the flip side, as AlexLee mentioned, there are many financial advantages to renting, but also interesting experiences as a tenant (learning all the tricks of the trade), which can come in handy for you as a landlord.

I always thought it would have been interesting to rent through the PM of my IP's :) Imagine the conversations: "Yes, I know my rent is late - has my tenant paid theirs yet?"

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
Agreed with all the above

Personally, I agree that as a young swinging single in your 20s, maybe early thirties, it would be a good thing to rent and buy IPs along the way - the mortgage is deductible and you can always move into the IP in future should you so choose.

However there comes a time in everyone's life where you would want a "place to call home" and would buy a PPOR. Hopefully by that time, your investments are chugging along nicely and you will be able to comfortably afford a PPOR without detracting from your investment goals...
 
On the flip side, as AlexLee mentioned, there are many financial advantages to renting, but also interesting experiences as a tenant (learning all the tricks of the trade), which can come in handy for you as a landlord.

I always thought it would have been interesting to rent through the PM of my IP's :) Imagine the conversations: "Yes, I know my rent is late - has my tenant paid theirs yet?"

Cheers,

The Y-man

Hehe - this is exactly the situation I am in! The company my husband works for uses the property management agency to manage the house we currently live in, and we have them managing 2 of out IPs...Funnily, just today I had a meeting with my PM, and asked about how they carry out their inspections after noticing they whizzed through my own house very quickly!! Its also quite funny, because they definately have two different hats - one for the tenant and one for the landlord - before we took them on as PM, they we very much down the line, no messing about and quite firm about their expectations....when I rang to enquire about PM fees etc (without them knowing who I was) they were much friendlier and easygoing! I was impressed with the way they treated me as a tenant - firm, but fair, and this was one of the major reasons I took them on as PM!

Cheers, Nadia
 
Financially, given a rental yield of, say, 5%, you're better off buying IPs. You get all the deductions, depreciation, flexibility of renting and perhaps most importantly, you are more likely to view an IP as an investment/business. i.e. you're less likely to over-renovate, and more likely to refinance to buy more property (harder to put debt 'back' on 'your home').

For a young person with no family, I would definitely suggest buying IPs first.

However, having a PPOR gives you a lot of emotional value. The risk I see with buying your PPOR first is that you end up wanting to 'own your own home' so much that you put far too much money into paying off your PPOR loan and neglect your other investments. It's easy to fall into the trap of 'I'll pay off our home and then think about investing', as many do. You end up losing 20 years of returns because you're too focused on cutting the PPOR mortgage.
Alex
Alex has some great points but I lean the other way.
A gross rental yield of 5% , well I doubt that in Brisbane at the moment, but even so a net yield of around 3.5% in my view.

Paying off your own home is a good tax free investment and at the same time you are increasing the equity you have in your property. A 7.5 % mortgage is like a savings account at 10% depending on what tax scale you are on.
Alex might like to correct me on that.
Your current savings account is likely between 1 and 6 percent.
so its a difference of 3.5% net yield V 2% tax advantage by paying your mortgage more or less.

if you can renovate or improve the looks of the ip all the better. that's not so easy to do if you have tenants in a property .Panting over several casual weekends,or months, improving gardens and walkways and small things inside the house can do wonders. With no experience I would not want to be rushed. You can use this as a practise for perhaps renovating other properties.It may also make you realise you are not a renovator.

Remember you own your own home , but you live in the
Hardware store.............believe me its so true for many people.

You don't have to pay off your whole loan on your PPR .
At an appropriate time borrow against your PPR.


If you are going to live in the property, you will definitely look more carefully than if you are going to rent it out for some unknown person to live in.

You can also have a person move in for a while to lower the burden of your payments . eg an airline pilot on interstate hops overnight!

It sounds like you aren't fazed where you live so if you do sell , you have 6 years in which the ppr rule will allow you to sell w/out any CGT. That is a huge savings. You can always move in and out and the 6 year rule starts again from scratch.
eg in an IP after 5 years you have a cgt on $150,000 upon sale, your profit.
.......you just need to know what tax rate you are on to get a figure
if its your PPR then no cgt.
As Alex said there is another advantage besides financial
 
Certainly doable. I recently purchased in Narangba, for $315k, now rented for $320/wk. Did nothing to it except put $150 of screens in.

I used to hold the view of better to rent and save/invest. Used spreadsheets and everything to calculate it. I still hold that view to a large extent, but also think it important to get a good asset base via leverage as soon as practical.

Alex has some great points but I lean the other way.
A gross rental yield of 5% , well I doubt that in Brisbane at the moment, but even so a net yield of around 3.5% in my view.........
 
Thanks alot everyone for all your advice and suggestions. I will be having a chat with my partner and then we will go from there.
Thankyou again
Kate:)
 
I would always favour renting over ownership - unless your PPOR has been a value add such as a h&l package with instant equity or a reno etc - how many other lifestyle choices are subsidised to such a large extent? none that i can think of.
 
There are really only two reasons why you would buy your PPOR:

1) The only way you will ever save and invest is by buying your PPOR (this in fact applies to most of the population)

2) For the emotional value. Personally, I'm planning to buy my own home. Financially it doesn't make sense, but I want somewhere to call my own (and not have to kick a tenant out), put nails into the walls, paint, have a dog, etc.

Nothing wrong with (2) but just try not to put yourself too far back. Doing some smart things like having an offset account, refinancing when you want to invest in other things and debt recycling will help lower the financial cost of a PPOR.
Alex
 
There are really only two reasons why you would buy your PPOR
I think there are other reasons to buy a PPOR.

.Stability. When you rent, you always have the risk that a lease is not going to be renewed. I know a REA who incorrectly predicted the peak of the boom in 2002, so sold up and went renting. Because of the boom, three subsequent landlords forced three annual house moves.

.Long term. It may be cheaper to rent now, but as rents rise, your principal repayment does not. In ten years, you may find that it's much more expensive to rent than to be having your own home.
 
We have a few IPs and are now comtemplating buying a PPOR.

Just wondering what people think is the best course of action: to save cash to use as a deposit to buy a PPOR or utililse equity in their IPs as a depost for their PPOR?

I understand that using equity to buy PPOR will turn deductible debt into non deductible debt but if your PPOR turns into a IP at a future date then it would be difficult to be saving for a cash deposit each time you but a new PPOR???

What are your thoughts ??:)
 
Is another reason to get a PPOR:

A. Increase in rents over time?
With the low supply of rental housing, rents will be pressured to go up. With a PPOR, your mortgage payments are fixed but highish (8%?), for renting, it increases (5%->6%?)
 
Is another reason to get a PPOR:

A. Increase in rents over time?
With the low supply of rental housing, rents will be pressured to go up. With a PPOR, your mortgage payments are fixed but highish (8%?), for renting, it increases (5%->6%?)

don't really agree with that because the rents that you charge for the IP will also increase. So if you're paying rent but renting out an equivalent house, you'll still be better off due to the deductability of interest and other things...
 
.Stability. When you rent, you always have the risk that a lease is not going to be renewed. I know a REA who incorrectly predicted the peak of the boom in 2002, so sold up and went renting. Because of the boom, three subsequent landlords forced three annual house moves.

I agree. But stability is not a financial reason to buy a PPOR, it’s an emotional reason.

.Long term. It may be cheaper to rent now, but as rents rise, your principal repayment does not. In ten years, you may find that it's much more expensive to rent than to be having your own home.

But if the difference between renting and buying was used to buy more investments…… the calculation varies. Also, rent is likely to be lower precisely when your investments make the most money (booms tend to be associated with flatter rental markets). For most people, who wouldn’t invest the difference, it’s much better to buy their PPOR.

Is another reason to get a PPOR:

A. Increase in rents over time?
With the low supply of rental housing, rents will be pressured to go up. With a PPOR, your mortgage payments are fixed but highish (8%?), for renting, it increases (5%->6%?)

Low rental supply is only what the market is NOW. In 2002 / 2003, the rental market was very much in favour of the renter (I saw FOUR weeks rent free advertised in some cases). Long term, you have to assume that the rental market will go back to equilibrium. So 2002/03 wasn’t sustainable (eventually people would stop buying IPs, which is what happened) and 2007 isn’t sustainable either (once rents get to a certain point investors will come back in and increase supply).

I don’t really understand the 5 to >6% comparison. That would only happen if you’re comparing cost, but as the value of the place you rent increases, theoretically the ‘yield’ stays stable (assuming long term rent increases proportionately to the increase in value of the property). At the same time, the value of my IPs (assuming I could buy more as a result of renting and investing the difference) would also go up.

I’m planning to buy a PPOR myself, for all of the non-financial reasons stated. The only thing I would caution people is NOT to think that buying a PPOR is the best financial option.
Alex
 
Play with the spreadsheet herewith. THough don't adjust the purchase price as the stamp duty won't change accordingly.

ON the whole, it shows if you make your first purchase an IP, and have to pay rent somewhere else, then you are not ahead at the end of the first year.

Better to make your first purchase a PPR, and then consider renting it out after 12 mths.

Benefits of buying as first home are:
- FHOG
- stamp duty concession
- don't have to pay rent somewhere else
- don't have property expenses such as property mgt, letting fees, landlords insurance.
- don't accumulate cgt

All in all, the tax advantage of an IP does not beat buying as First Home.
At least over the first year. As mentioned by others above, everyone focuses on money saved when rent is cheaper than mortgage pmts. However, this ignores the benefits of non taxable capital gains for a PPR.

I think when I modelled this scenario sometime ago, changing the property from PPR to IP after the first year was better.

You might get a small advantage buying as IP if you can stay rent free somewhere over the first year.
 

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Just wondering what people think is the best course of action: to save cash to use as a deposit to buy a PPOR or utililse equity in their IPs as a depost for their PPOR?

Don't know if it was the "best" course of action, but we went for saving a small deposit (90% loan) on our ppor.

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
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