just bought second IP-60 minutes FREAKED me out!!

Don't panic, don't panic

Please allow me to quote Saul Eslake ANZ chief economist who wrote this article dated 13 Oct '08 - BEFORE the feds announced increases to the FHB grants.

Why there is unlikely to be a large across-the-board fall in Australian house prices as there has been in the United States.

A number of analysts have for some time been predicting that Australian
house prices will drop substantially. For example Associate Professor Steve
Keen of the University of Western Sydney suggests that house prices in
Australia could drop by ‘as much as 40%’. Morgan Stanley’s Gerard Minack
has been reported as forecasting that they could fall by 50%.

Not only do I hope these predictions will be proved wrong, I also think they
will be. They (and others) are of course wholly correct in pointing out that
Australian house prices are very high (relative to incomes), both by historical
and international standards, and that Australians have accumulated a lot of
debt (again relative to incomes) in the process of pushing house prices to
where they are. And house prices have already fallen significantly in some
other countries – notably the US and Britain - where both house prices and
household debt have previously risen by similar proportions as they have in
Australia. Despite these undeniable similarities, there are nonetheless some important differences between the Australian and American housing and mortgage markets.

First, Australia does not have a physical excess supply of housing. America
does, because unlike us, it actually built more new dwellings than it required
to meet growth in underlying demand. In Australia, the reverse has
happened: we haven’t built enough dwellings to meet underlying demand,
which has been pushed up by rising levels of immigration. As a result, we
actually have a significant backlog of unmet underlying demand for housing
(as also indicated by the upward pressure on rents in recent years).
Reflecting this, the IMF’s World Economic Outlook released last week
specifically acknowledges that ‘if some country-specific factors are taken into
account, the results [of a cross-country study of the extent to which house
prices could be explained by ‘fundamentals’ by IMF researchers] do not
produce evidence of a significant overvaluation of [Australian] house prices’.

Second, Australia does not have a huge supply of existing dwellings for sale
at any price hanging over the market because of the huge increase in
foreclosures that has been the primary source of downward pressure on
American house prices. Mortgagees in possession will sell at any price
because they don't want to keep the house, they want to get at least some of their money back as soon as possible. That is now happening on an
unprecedented scale in America. But it isn't happening, and in my view is
unlikely to happen, in Australia.

One reason for that is that there has been far less imprudent lending here than in America. "Non-conforming" loans (the closest thing we have to sub-prime) represent around 1% of all mortgages outstanding in Australia, as against around 15% in the US; while “low-doc” and “no-doc” loans account for around another 7% in Australia compared with about 15-20% of American mortgages being "Alt-A" which is their equivalent of “low-doc” or “no-doc”.
More generally, the Reserve Bank of Australia was one of the very few central banks which did not make the mistake (which the US Federal Reserve under Alan Greenspan in particular did make) of keeping interest rates too low for too long in the first half of the current decade, after the risk of recession and deflation in the aftermath of the bursting of the "tech bubble" had subsided. That's why proportionately far fewer Australians than Americans were enticed into taking out mortgages that they couldn't hope to be able to service when interest rates returned to more "normal" levels.

Secondly, mortgage lending in America is typically "non-recourse": that is, in the event of default, the lender can take possession of, and sell, the property against which the mortgage is secured, but cannot make any claims against any other assets or income which the defaulting borrower may have.
That means that when an American borrower finds him or herself in a position where he or she can't (or even doesn't want to) keep up the repayments on a mortgage which may be worth more than the home, it can be quite rational for him or her to "walk away". Yes, he or she will have a bad credit rating, and may never be able to get a mortgage again: but many of the borrowers were in this position to begin with - that's why they got "sub-prime" mortgages in the first place.

By contrast, in Australia the generally applicable legal position is that lenders can go after a defaulting borrower's other assets and income, if any, in order to make up any shortfall remaining when a foreclosure sale results in proceeds which are less than the outstanding debt. That, together with the generally greater social stigma which the Australian culture attaches to default, provides a powerful incentive to Australian home buyers to avoid default if possible. And that is one reason why default rates on Australian mortgages have remained vastly lower than on American ones - even though the interest rates which Australian borrowers have been paying have generally been somewhat higher than those paid by American (or British) homebuyers.

Because there are proportionately far fewer dwellings in foreclosure, and thus “on the market” for whatever price someone is willing to pay for them, in Australia than in the US, there has been far less downward pressure on house prices here than in the US. And provided (and this is an important proviso), unemployment in Australia does not spike sharply higher (as it did in the early 90s) this is likely to remain the case - especially now that interest rates are falling, and falling a lot. If mortgage defaults rose only a little while interest rates were high and rising, provided unemployment remains low, why should mortgage defaults start rising when interest rates are falling?
Here's the simple but critical point: house prices will only fall significantly if lots of owners have to sell them for whatever price that they can get.

It is increasingly true that vendors are finding that they can't get the prices they would like. Sometimes they find that if they really do want to sell, they may have to settle for less than they had hoped. But the more common reaction, among the vast majority vendors who are not selling because they have to, is not to sell, and to remain in the property for longer. Turnover drops, perhaps sharply; real estate agents' incomes decline, and State
governments experience shortfalls in revenue from stamp duty. But prices don't fall sharply across the board.

There will of course be exceptions to this generalization. Here are three:

First, in areas where non-traditional mortgage lenders (whose customers included a larger proportion of more marginal borrowers, and who in cases lent on higher loan-to valuation ratios, and who in general are much quicker than banks or building societies to foreclose in the event that a borrower falls behind in his or her mortgage repayments) had a larger market share than the national average, there are likely to be relatively more "forced sales", and house prices are more likely to decline in such areas. Western
Sydney is the prime example.

Second, prices of premium properties in the most expensive suburbs of Australia's major cities could experience large declines. That's because prices of such properties are often determined by how much money a particular purchaser who desperately wants to live in a particular house or in one of those suburbs has access to and is willing to throw at it, rather than reflecting any objective assessment of its intrinsic value. There are clearly going to be fewer people in that position now, as a result of the global financial crisis. And some people who were in that position and who have also had large debts secured against share portfolios or their business interests may be forced sellers.

Third, areas in which investors have been a particularly large share of the market may experience price falls if sufficient of them give up any hope of eventual capital gain or are unwilling or unable to sustain the negative cash flows associated with their investments (even with the tax subsidy provided by "negative gearing").

But these are exceptions to the general rule. Provided, again, that unemployment remains low so that the overwhelming majority of home-buyers remain able to service their mortgages, there will not be the excess of forced sellers over willing buyers required by definition to produce a generalized fall in house prices.

Of course, it may also be a long time before house prices start rising again.
The key proviso in all of this is that unemployment doesn’t rise sharply, so that a large number of home borrowers don’t find themselves unable to keep up their mortgage repayments despite their wish to do so. I’m not suggesting that unemployment won’t rise at all: clearly, and unfortunately, it will, and by more than the Government forecast in this year’s Budget.

However I would suggest there are two good reasons to believe that unemployment won’t rise by anything like as much as it did during the recessions of the early 1980s or early 1990s.

First, Australian employers are under much less pressure from high levels of business debt and high interest rates, or from steeply rising real labour costs, than they were on either of those two occasions.

And secondly, employers are aware that, as a result of demographic changes, one of the biggest challenges they are likely to face over the medium term is a shortage of labour, rather than an excess of it.

Hence, unless they believe that Australia is facing a deep or protracted recession, they are more likely to be willing to ‘hoard’ labour – that is, to keep their employees on their payrolls even at some short-term cost to profits – than they have been during previous downturns. This, incidentally, would be much more ‘socially responsible’ on the part of employers than cutting prices in order to ‘share’ some of their profits with customers. Cutting
prices in current circumstances would increase the risk of deflation – that is, outright falls in the general level of consumer prices – something which is one of the key differences between a ‘depression’ and a ‘recession’, and something which is much more difficult to reverse than a conventional recession.

Together with appropriate reductions in interest rates, it would help ensuring that Australian home-buyers were able to continue servicing their mortgages, reduce the risk of rising mortgage delinquencies and defaults, and minimize the risk of sharp and destabilizing falls in house prices....end of article

I think we all find people to support our own positions and this one supports mine (and many others on this forum too I believe).

Even if I did not own lots of property, I would still in view of all the evidence around me (excluding media noise), find myself unable to accept the propositions put forth by Associate Professor Steve Keen of the University of Western Sydney.

Cheers
 
For anyone who didn't watch it, they interviewed an elderly couple who lost money in super and in Shares and had to go back to work part time and to plant their own veggies.

this is the bit that really annoys me - the "only" reason they would need to go back to work is if they were living off their cashed in shares (eating the golden goose). if they were living off dividends only than the share price makes little difference yet ... bet that wasn't pointed out.

fistly, there seem to be a few new rampant doom and gloomers popped into the forum, who's only desire is to scare the pants off newcomers and those that don't really understand the fundamentals of property investing - don't listen to them. listen to those who have substantial posts or who give a rounded and balanced view.

i understand why you bought the last property, even if the returns aren't very good - is your rent set right for the market? if cashflow is tight, have you had depreciation schedule done? (essential). once you've got the schedule, worked out what the gap between income and interest/expenses are, have you submitted to the ato a tax variation form? this form allows you to have the tax taken out of your pay reduced per payday, instead of waiting for the end of the year for a lump sum. better in your pocket to meet current expenses than sitting at the tax office not earning any interest.
 
I whole heartedly agree with Saul Estlake....what he says makes absolute sense. Professor Keen's theories are more fairy fluff to me!:p

Cheers
Sash

I think we all find people to support our own positions and this one supports mine (and many others on this forum too I believe).


Cheers
 
Please allow me to quote Saul Eslake ANZ chief economist who wrote this article dated 13 Oct '08 - BEFORE the feds announced increases to the FHB grants.

Where Saul Eslake's article is one sided is in saying property prices won't fall as long as unemployment doesn't slide significantly. He then fails to address the factors that risk higher unemployment.
 
Lol ;)

Stop freakin, that is unless you were planning to sell within the next couple of years. . in which case youve gone horribly wrong from the start,

Anyway,
I wouldnt be worried, probarbly your biggest 'problem' being that increased equity lending would be slow at present, there have always been recessions and they have always been followed by booms, dont worry, its a natural occurance.

In my personal case, Darwin (where I choose to invest) often works in opposite ways, we havent seen any real drop offs in increasing prices over the past couple of years and we are in the midst of a mini boom now with the INPEX and DOW deals coming to town, plus the increased FHOG and interest rates heading down fast thats making things in the real estate market really heat up.
 
this is the bit that really annoys me - the "only" reason they would need to go back to work is if they were living off their cashed in shares (eating the golden goose). if they were living off dividends only than the share price makes little difference yet ... bet that wasn't pointed out.
.

Lizzie,

I agree, that story focused on the wrong things and tried to make us think that the sky is about to fall with no evidence whatsoever.

Also, if I was the 60 minutes reporter I would have been drilling Steve keen with questions to try and see if there is reliability of what he says or if it's simply nonsense.

They must have some junior producer running the show these days and with stories presented like this there is no point watching them again.

Cheers
 
Steve Keen's views are freely available in depth on his blog, Debtwatch.
Anyone that doesn't agree with him should go and have a read, then list the errors in his thinking on Somersoft for broader debate.

To go on emotively saying the guy is wrong and dangerous is illogical and financially naive.
 
I work in a corporate and have friends in large corporates. They are all taking steps to curtail costs including the option of looking at headcount reductions.

I am watching the unemployment numbers closely...this holds the key to how people react. I suspect there will be a five in front by Jan-Feb. 2009.

Cheers
Sash

I have a friend who is a recruitment officer In Sydney. She recruits (poaches) top CEO's etc. She said there has been some "culling" in the top exec roles for some time now. At least 9 months. Major companies are getting rid of one CEO and giving the job to another already employed CEO, thereby cutting top salary expenses by half.

There are some great posts here, Michael, BV and Aimjoy, with loads of information.

BV,

You are right, I can only take my husbands work for example:

He is a Surveyor - (Engineering and Building Industry)

We are operating at minimum staff, 4 employess FT 1-2 PT, because we have not been able to find employess for at least 3 years.

My husband is terribly over worked and is working minimum 70hrs/week. We actually turn work away or refer it elsewhere.

Back to the thread:

Neaka,
While I think your latest investment is not a terribly good one as far as CASHFLOW is concerned and the times ahead are going to be tough, it will only be hard for you if you cannot afford your current debt.

So what you really need to ask yourself is:

1, Can you afford it?
2. How safe is your and your partners job?
3. What would happen if you or your partner lost your job?

Last of all:

4. What is your back up plan if all else fails.:rolleyes:

PS: I saw Prof Keen AGAIN! Unfortunately WW, I have a habit of rolling my eyes when I hear him! Don't let him scare you, Neaka, just let him inform you of his opinion and take it on board. The only thing you have to worry about is your cashflow and affordability. We all know interest rates are coming down which is good for your debt level.

Regards JO
 
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I love Prof Keen!
The more he talks, the more people listen, the more the RBA will have to ease rates! :D
Cheers,
Michael

I agree, if he keeps spreading D&G the RBA will cut rates, all my IP's will become cash flow positive and I can go shopping IP's again....:D
 
Should i be worried? I dont know a lot about the looming financial crisis, i just watched 60 minutes and am now freaking that we have done the wrong thing? Our first IP we owe $120k on and get $270 a week rent. Our new IP we owe $400k on and am getting $220 a week rent (this is a house we plan to make our PPOR one day).

Its a general question but will the crisis effect us? How do i learn more about it?

I am 27 and hubby is 29, we are hoping to start a family soon very scary times?

I wouldnt be too concerned, most of it is just speculation at the moment. Im just waiting on those rates to come down down down (more speculation :D).

Depending on your income, it does not seem to be a huge outgoing despite what some people have said. Although the yield is a bit low.
 
I agree, if he keeps spreading D&G the RBA will cut rates, all my IP's will become cash flow positive and I can go shopping IP's again....:D

Do you know, when you think of things this way.....why the hell won't there be a MASSIVE property boom! :eek:

I had alot of people come through my house, it's over the mil mark, and there are people with alot of money out there. :)

Regards JO
 
Please allow me to quote Saul Eslake ANZ chief economist who wrote this article dated 13 Oct '08 - BEFORE the feds announced increases to the FHB grants.

Why there is unlikely to be a large across-the-board fall in Australian house prices as there has been in the United States.

A number of analysts have for some time been predicting that Australian
house prices will drop substantially. For example Associate Professor Steve
Keen of the University of Western Sydney suggests that house prices in
Australia could drop by ‘as much as 40%’. Morgan Stanley’s Gerard Minack
has been reported as forecasting that they could fall by 50%.

Not only do I hope these predictions will be proved wrong, I also think they
will be. They (and others) are of course wholly correct in pointing out that
Australian house prices are very high (relative to incomes), both by historical
and international standards, and that Australians have accumulated a lot of
debt (again relative to incomes) in the process of pushing house prices to
where they are. And house prices have already fallen significantly in some
other countries – notably the US and Britain - where both house prices and
household debt have previously risen by similar proportions as they have in
Australia. Despite these undeniable similarities, there are nonetheless some important differences between the Australian and American housing and mortgage markets.

First, Australia does not have a physical excess supply of housing. America
does, because unlike us, it actually built more new dwellings than it required
to meet growth in underlying demand. In Australia, the reverse has
happened: we haven’t built enough dwellings to meet underlying demand,
which has been pushed up by rising levels of immigration. As a result, we
actually have a significant backlog of unmet underlying demand for housing
(as also indicated by the upward pressure on rents in recent years).
Reflecting this, the IMF’s World Economic Outlook released last week
specifically acknowledges that ‘if some country-specific factors are taken into
account, the results [of a cross-country study of the extent to which house
prices could be explained by ‘fundamentals’ by IMF researchers] do not
produce evidence of a significant overvaluation of [Australian] house prices’.

Second, Australia does not have a huge supply of existing dwellings for sale
at any price hanging over the market because of the huge increase in
foreclosures that has been the primary source of downward pressure on
American house prices. Mortgagees in possession will sell at any price
because they don't want to keep the house, they want to get at least some of their money back as soon as possible. That is now happening on an
unprecedented scale in America. But it isn't happening, and in my view is
unlikely to happen, in Australia.

One reason for that is that there has been far less imprudent lending here than in America. "Non-conforming" loans (the closest thing we have to sub-prime) represent around 1% of all mortgages outstanding in Australia, as against around 15% in the US; while “low-doc” and “no-doc” loans account for around another 7% in Australia compared with about 15-20% of American mortgages being "Alt-A" which is their equivalent of “low-doc” or “no-doc”.
More generally, the Reserve Bank of Australia was one of the very few central banks which did not make the mistake (which the US Federal Reserve under Alan Greenspan in particular did make) of keeping interest rates too low for too long in the first half of the current decade, after the risk of recession and deflation in the aftermath of the bursting of the "tech bubble" had subsided. That's why proportionately far fewer Australians than Americans were enticed into taking out mortgages that they couldn't hope to be able to service when interest rates returned to more "normal" levels.

Secondly, mortgage lending in America is typically "non-recourse": that is, in the event of default, the lender can take possession of, and sell, the property against which the mortgage is secured, but cannot make any claims against any other assets or income which the defaulting borrower may have.
That means that when an American borrower finds him or herself in a position where he or she can't (or even doesn't want to) keep up the repayments on a mortgage which may be worth more than the home, it can be quite rational for him or her to "walk away". Yes, he or she will have a bad credit rating, and may never be able to get a mortgage again: but many of the borrowers were in this position to begin with - that's why they got "sub-prime" mortgages in the first place.

By contrast, in Australia the generally applicable legal position is that lenders can go after a defaulting borrower's other assets and income, if any, in order to make up any shortfall remaining when a foreclosure sale results in proceeds which are less than the outstanding debt. That, together with the generally greater social stigma which the Australian culture attaches to default, provides a powerful incentive to Australian home buyers to avoid default if possible. And that is one reason why default rates on Australian mortgages have remained vastly lower than on American ones - even though the interest rates which Australian borrowers have been paying have generally been somewhat higher than those paid by American (or British) homebuyers.

Because there are proportionately far fewer dwellings in foreclosure, and thus “on the market” for whatever price someone is willing to pay for them, in Australia than in the US, there has been far less downward pressure on house prices here than in the US. And provided (and this is an important proviso), unemployment in Australia does not spike sharply higher (as it did in the early 90s) this is likely to remain the case - especially now that interest rates are falling, and falling a lot. If mortgage defaults rose only a little while interest rates were high and rising, provided unemployment remains low, why should mortgage defaults start rising when interest rates are falling?
Here's the simple but critical point: house prices will only fall significantly if lots of owners have to sell them for whatever price that they can get.

It is increasingly true that vendors are finding that they can't get the prices they would like. Sometimes they find that if they really do want to sell, they may have to settle for less than they had hoped. But the more common reaction, among the vast majority vendors who are not selling because they have to, is not to sell, and to remain in the property for longer. Turnover drops, perhaps sharply; real estate agents' incomes decline, and State
governments experience shortfalls in revenue from stamp duty. But prices don't fall sharply across the board.

There will of course be exceptions to this generalization. Here are three:

First, in areas where non-traditional mortgage lenders (whose customers included a larger proportion of more marginal borrowers, and who in cases lent on higher loan-to valuation ratios, and who in general are much quicker than banks or building societies to foreclose in the event that a borrower falls behind in his or her mortgage repayments) had a larger market share than the national average, there are likely to be relatively more "forced sales", and house prices are more likely to decline in such areas. Western
Sydney is the prime example.

Second, prices of premium properties in the most expensive suburbs of Australia's major cities could experience large declines. That's because prices of such properties are often determined by how much money a particular purchaser who desperately wants to live in a particular house or in one of those suburbs has access to and is willing to throw at it, rather than reflecting any objective assessment of its intrinsic value. There are clearly going to be fewer people in that position now, as a result of the global financial crisis. And some people who were in that position and who have also had large debts secured against share portfolios or their business interests may be forced sellers.

Third, areas in which investors have been a particularly large share of the market may experience price falls if sufficient of them give up any hope of eventual capital gain or are unwilling or unable to sustain the negative cash flows associated with their investments (even with the tax subsidy provided by "negative gearing").

But these are exceptions to the general rule. Provided, again, that unemployment remains low so that the overwhelming majority of home-buyers remain able to service their mortgages, there will not be the excess of forced sellers over willing buyers required by definition to produce a generalized fall in house prices.

Of course, it may also be a long time before house prices start rising again.
The key proviso in all of this is that unemployment doesn’t rise sharply, so that a large number of home borrowers don’t find themselves unable to keep up their mortgage repayments despite their wish to do so. I’m not suggesting that unemployment won’t rise at all: clearly, and unfortunately, it will, and by more than the Government forecast in this year’s Budget.

However I would suggest there are two good reasons to believe that unemployment won’t rise by anything like as much as it did during the recessions of the early 1980s or early 1990s.

First, Australian employers are under much less pressure from high levels of business debt and high interest rates, or from steeply rising real labour costs, than they were on either of those two occasions.

And secondly, employers are aware that, as a result of demographic changes, one of the biggest challenges they are likely to face over the medium term is a shortage of labour, rather than an excess of it.

Hence, unless they believe that Australia is facing a deep or protracted recession, they are more likely to be willing to ‘hoard’ labour – that is, to keep their employees on their payrolls even at some short-term cost to profits – than they have been during previous downturns. This, incidentally, would be much more ‘socially responsible’ on the part of employers than cutting prices in order to ‘share’ some of their profits with customers. Cutting
prices in current circumstances would increase the risk of deflation – that is, outright falls in the general level of consumer prices – something which is one of the key differences between a ‘depression’ and a ‘recession’, and something which is much more difficult to reverse than a conventional recession.

Together with appropriate reductions in interest rates, it would help ensuring that Australian home-buyers were able to continue servicing their mortgages, reduce the risk of rising mortgage delinquencies and defaults, and minimize the risk of sharp and destabilizing falls in house prices....end of article

I think we all find people to support our own positions and this one supports mine (and many others on this forum too I believe).

Even if I did not own lots of property, I would still in view of all the evidence around me (excluding media noise), find myself unable to accept the propositions put forth by Associate Professor Steve Keen of the University of Western Sydney.

Cheers

Good post. Would like to see a rational response to that.
 
when you think of things this way.....why the hell won't there be a MASSIVE property boom! :eek:

Jo,

None knows what is going to happen.
Considering all the doom and gloom it's unlikely that we will have a boom as such.
Increases in some areas? yes, its likely, anything else is a massive speculation
and this includes Steve Keen's "the sky is falling" theory

KRudd is giving away money but fear will stop many people from spending it and will also keep many people away from property and shares.
One thing is certain though, the situation will change, it always does and in the end the brave ones will be rewarded.

Long term there is some serious money to be made both from property and from shares so as soon as I am given the opportunity I will buy and will position myself for a great financial future and an early retirement.

Cheers
 
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Only problem with "we are not America" belief, is that the UK has also experienced heavy falls, and they also have the under supply problems we have here. Under supply doesn't necessarily protect the market when times are very tough.

I think at the moment the key will be to become as close to CFP as possible, so that means yield plays for the next few years. Capital gain plays could be iffy at best, especially if one was expecting to profit heavily in the very short term.
 
Only problem with "we are not America" belief, is that the UK has also experienced heavy falls, and they also have the under supply problems we have here. Under supply doesn't necessarily protect the market when times are very tough.

I think at the moment the key will be to become as close to CFP as possible, so that means yield plays for the next few years. Capital gain plays could be iffy at best, especially if one was expecting to profit heavily in the very short term.

I don't know a great deal about the UK market but isnt the problem there related to banks tightening lending so much that people can't get loans?
 
I don't know a great deal about the UK market but isnt the problem there related to banks tightening lending so much that people can't get loans?


They came off a boom and then had massive credit freeze (and already were heading into down-turn). Its a winning combination :D

Anyway, as mentioned "long term is the key".
 
Good post. Would like to see a rational response to that.

Ok, I will give it a go....

First, Australia does not have a physical excess supply of housing. America does, because unlike us, it actually built more new dwellings than it required to meet growth in underlying demand

3 counterpoints to this.

1. Understanding that you can do almost anything you like with statistics, I would offer this as a rebuttal to the housing shortage. According to bubblepedia, as of 2006 there were about 830k unoccupied dwellings. Between 2006 and the start of 2008 I don't think that housing decreased appreciably. It is only from 2008 onwards that things started to slow down.

2. Immigration is subject to the performance of the economy. Already there is talk of reducing immigration.

3. Just because population is increasing it doesnt mean that people will continue to buy at any price, no matter how inflated. first, because they probably won't have the money. Second because they can always rent and rent--while expensive--remains far, far cheaper than buying. One will no doubt say that this will provide greater incentive for property investors, but at these prices rent yields are so low as to make property investment a bad idea if there is no prospect of capital gains attached. and if you agree with that then you have to say that it will be capital gains--and not rent alone--that will push prices up. by the same token, if the prospect of CG vanishes, people will be understandably reluctant to invest until either house prices decrease or rents increase (or, more likely, both) to a level where rental yields provide a reasonable return on the investment. As an aside, rents in canberra have been pretty flat since last year and last month dropped by 2%. this in the midst of a dead real estate market and, so we are told, a terrible shortage of rental housing. go figure.

Second, Australia does not have a huge supply of existing dwellings for sale at any price hanging over the market because of the huge increase in foreclosures that has been the primary source of downward pressure on American house prices

He is right, but he forgot to add the magic word: "YET". People are mortgaged to their eyeballs, relying on dual incomes to service the mortgage while putting food on the table. At least that is the case with many recent FHBs (reference all the articles about mortgage stress that have come out over the past year). When the economy starts to slow (and it will--the effects of the finance meltdown will take time to make themselves felt, but they will eventually) people are going to start losing jobs.

There are a lot of people who were barely scraping by in a booming economy. when things turn down they will have to sell. if they are lucky they will do so early and not end up with negative equity. Also people at the top--and this is already happening--will be dumping weekend homes, luxury mansions, etc. and downgrading.

One reason for that is that there has been far less imprudent lending here than in America.

In so far as sub prime loans have not played so important a role in australia--yes. this will help reduce the severity of the problem i am sure. but on the other hand aussie banks have had no problems with lending people with solid credit outrageous sums of money that stretch them to the limit when it comes to repaying. they have also not hesitated to lend outrageous sums of money to property investors, based solely on the equity in their other properties. if home prices decrease, then the collateral might well be worth a lot less than the loan. it would not be surprising to see banks do what they did in the US and what they did in the UK and that is to foreclose at the slightest sign of trouble so as to sell early and recoup as much of their investment as possible before the market completely tanks. sounds unlikely, but it has happened elsewhere and the banks are ultimately in the business of making money, not of being nice.

Secondly, mortgage lending in America is typically "non-recourse": that is, in the event of default, the lender can take possession of, and sell, the property against which the mortgage is secured, but cannot make any claims against any other assets or income which the defaulting borrower may have.

This is a completely inaccurate characterisation of the US situation, and it has been discussed extensively elsewhere (ghpc for one). this varies state by state. roughly half of the states have non recourse mortgages, the other half do not. in either case your credit is completely demolished and you have still lost your home. whether the bank pursues you or not, the idea that millions of americans are simply dropping the keys off and are merrily on their way, whistling happy tunes is absurd. the default will remain on their credit rating for 7 years making it impossible for them to get so much as a used car loan. the impact of the non recourse mortgage is, i think, vastly overstated. most people will do everything they can to keep their home before they get booted. that is why you see people running up huge credit card debts, having electricity and heat, phone and gas cut off before they are finally forced out by the sheriffs. the idea that most people just walk away without a second thought--while it may happen occassionally--is just absurd.

Because there are proportionately far fewer dwellings in foreclosure, and thus “on the market” for whatever price someone is willing to pay for them, in Australia than in the US, there has been far less downward pressure on house prices here than in the US. And provided (and this is an important proviso), unemployment in Australia does not spike sharply higher (as it did in the early 90s) this is likely to remain the case
Please take careful note of the proviso. Everything is predicated on the idea that Australia remains largely insulated from the global economic slowdown. this does not seem like a realistic assumption. america is in a recession, the uk is in a recession, the rest of europe is not far behind. china remains a largely export driven economy. their desire for australian minerals will no doubt dry up soon. i can't remember where i read it, but there was an excellent article out recently about how a huge number of steel mills are going under all across china as demand drops. when the demand for minerals and resources drops, there are going to be a lot of former miners out there with no place to go. and that is only one sector of the economy. What is more, since people have so much personal debt these days they will not be well-equipped to deal with short-term economic upheavals. and if banks rush in to secure their investment (as we saw happen in the US and UK) a completely different picture starts to emerge.



It is increasingly true that vendors are finding that they can't get the prices they would like. Sometimes they find that if they really do want to sell, they may have to settle for less than they had hoped. But the more common reaction, among the vast majority vendors who are not selling because they have to, is not to sell, and to remain in the property for longer. Turnover drops, perhaps sharply; real estate agents' incomes decline, and State
governments experience shortfalls in revenue from stamp duty. But prices don't fall sharply across the board
.

I think we have already seen price drops across the board. on low volume, yes but i think that is even more ominous. it means that even at lower prices buyers are still not interested. there is further for it to go. as i understand it a similar phenomenon was seen in the US and the UK--first volume went, then the prices.

People who bought (esp. those who are negatively geared) with the expectation of (with the need for) CG will have to sell at some point. if the whole economic model is predicated on capital gains making up for negative gearing, and if prices do not go up, there is no longer any incentive for holding onto the property.

again, he omits the key word in the above: "YET"

His "three exceptions" that follow seem to describe the bottom and tops of the market, and i think people with good credit who have overleveraged covers the middle.

Of course, it may also be a long time before house prices start rising again.

If prices remain stable, you are effectively losing 3-5% a year on your investment as a result of inflation. you need to gain 5% a year just to avoid falling behind. this kind of undercuts his central point.

The key proviso in all of this is that unemployment doesn’t rise sharply, so that a large number of home borrowers don’t find themselves unable to keep up their mortgage repayments despite their wish to do so
.

Again, he is saying, basically, that we won't have a crash so long as we avoid all the economic conditions that bring on a crash. That's like saying I will live forever so long as I don't die.

his predictions about unemployment... well, they are predictions. it would be good if he is right--i hate to see anyone lose his/her job. but it seems based on the best possible outcome of the current situation. if employers don't see this as a recession... note how much the asx has dropped in recent weeks. note the mood in the financial community. note the articles saying we will be in a recession in time for xmas.

i am not saying he is wrong, i'm just saying that he is basing his conclusions on a very optimistic reading of the economic environment. even his optimistic reading is really not all that great--stagnant home prices is, it seems, the best possible outcome.

ultimately only time will tell. but as someone who recently moved to aus from overseas i have to say, the housing market still looks totally crazy to me.
 
Because our companies already operate on minimum staff and any less number of employees means that companies won't be able to function.

Unfortunately, this fact is not so obvious to the ones higher in the food chain.
So they do keep offloading people, to the point where they can no longer operate, have no revenue, and are forced to close down.... losing another batch of jobs....

Also remember that for multinationals with fully owned subsidiaries here, they have no real qualms about closing plants down if things can not be run profitably.

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
I think at the moment the key will be to become as close to CFP as possible, so that means yield plays for the next few years.
CF neutral > +ve will do me if no CG occurs it won't be the end of the world (for me). Rents going up, IR coming down, so long as my tenants keep their jobs then most of my IPs will run OK.

Capital gain plays could be iffy at best, especially if one was expecting to profit heavily in the very short term.

Anybody at any stage of the cycle expecting "to profit heavily in the very short term" from RE (being a 5 - 7 year min investment) might be in tears.
 
Ok, I will give it a go....



3 counterpoints to this.

1. Understanding that you can do almost anything you like with statistics, I would offer this as a rebuttal to the housing shortage. According to bubblepedia, as of 2006 there were about 830k unoccupied dwellings. Between 2006 and the start of 2008 I don't think that housing decreased appreciably. It is only from 2008 onwards that things started to slow down.

2. Immigration is subject to the performance of the economy. Already there is talk of reducing immigration.

3. Just because population is increasing it doesnt mean that people will continue to buy at any price, no matter how inflated. first, because they probably won't have the money. Second because they can always rent and rent--while expensive--remains far, far cheaper than buying. One will no doubt say that this will provide greater incentive for property investors, but at these prices rent yields are so low as to make property investment a bad idea if there is no prospect of capital gains attached. and if you agree with that then you have to say that it will be capital gains--and not rent alone--that will push prices up. by the same token, if the prospect of CG vanishes, people will be understandably reluctant to invest until either house prices decrease or rents increase (or, more likely, both) to a level where rental yields provide a reasonable return on the investment. As an aside, rents in canberra have been pretty flat since last year and last month dropped by 2%. this in the midst of a dead real estate market and, so we are told, a terrible shortage of rental housing. go figure.



He is right, but he forgot to add the magic word: "YET". People are mortgaged to their eyeballs, relying on dual incomes to service the mortgage while putting food on the table. At least that is the case with many recent FHBs (reference all the articles about mortgage stress that have come out over the past year). When the economy starts to slow (and it will--the effects of the finance meltdown will take time to make themselves felt, but they will eventually) people are going to start losing jobs.

There are a lot of people who were barely scraping by in a booming economy. when things turn down they will have to sell. if they are lucky they will do so early and not end up with negative equity. Also people at the top--and this is already happening--will be dumping weekend homes, luxury mansions, etc. and downgrading.



In so far as sub prime loans have not played so important a role in australia--yes. this will help reduce the severity of the problem i am sure. but on the other hand aussie banks have had no problems with lending people with solid credit outrageous sums of money that stretch them to the limit when it comes to repaying. they have also not hesitated to lend outrageous sums of money to property investors, based solely on the equity in their other properties. if home prices decrease, then the collateral might well be worth a lot less than the loan. it would not be surprising to see banks do what they did in the US and what they did in the UK and that is to foreclose at the slightest sign of trouble so as to sell early and recoup as much of their investment as possible before the market completely tanks. sounds unlikely, but it has happened elsewhere and the banks are ultimately in the business of making money, not of being nice.



This is a completely inaccurate characterisation of the US situation, and it has been discussed extensively elsewhere (ghpc for one). this varies state by state. roughly half of the states have non recourse mortgages, the other half do not. in either case your credit is completely demolished and you have still lost your home. whether the bank pursues you or not, the idea that millions of americans are simply dropping the keys off and are merrily on their way, whistling happy tunes is absurd. the default will remain on their credit rating for 7 years making it impossible for them to get so much as a used car loan. the impact of the non recourse mortgage is, i think, vastly overstated. most people will do everything they can to keep their home before they get booted. that is why you see people running up huge credit card debts, having electricity and heat, phone and gas cut off before they are finally forced out by the sheriffs. the idea that most people just walk away without a second thought--while it may happen occassionally--is just absurd.


Please take careful note of the proviso. Everything is predicated on the idea that Australia remains largely insulated from the global economic slowdown. this does not seem like a realistic assumption. america is in a recession, the uk is in a recession, the rest of europe is not far behind. china remains a largely export driven economy. their desire for australian minerals will no doubt dry up soon. i can't remember where i read it, but there was an excellent article out recently about how a huge number of steel mills are going under all across china as demand drops. when the demand for minerals and resources drops, there are going to be a lot of former miners out there with no place to go. and that is only one sector of the economy. What is more, since people have so much personal debt these days they will not be well-equipped to deal with short-term economic upheavals. and if banks rush in to secure their investment (as we saw happen in the US and UK) a completely different picture starts to emerge.



.

I think we have already seen price drops across the board. on low volume, yes but i think that is even more ominous. it means that even at lower prices buyers are still not interested. there is further for it to go. as i understand it a similar phenomenon was seen in the US and the UK--first volume went, then the prices.

People who bought (esp. those who are negatively geared) with the expectation of (with the need for) CG will have to sell at some point. if the whole economic model is predicated on capital gains making up for negative gearing, and if prices do not go up, there is no longer any incentive for holding onto the property.

again, he omits the key word in the above: "YET"

His "three exceptions" that follow seem to describe the bottom and tops of the market, and i think people with good credit who have overleveraged covers the middle.



If prices remain stable, you are effectively losing 3-5% a year on your investment as a result of inflation. you need to gain 5% a year just to avoid falling behind. this kind of undercuts his central point.

.

Again, he is saying, basically, that we won't have a crash so long as we avoid all the economic conditions that bring on a crash. That's like saying I will live forever so long as I don't die.

his predictions about unemployment... well, they are predictions. it would be good if he is right--i hate to see anyone lose his/her job. but it seems based on the best possible outcome of the current situation. if employers don't see this as a recession... note how much the asx has dropped in recent weeks. note the mood in the financial community. note the articles saying we will be in a recession in time for xmas.

i am not saying he is wrong, i'm just saying that he is basing his conclusions on a very optimistic reading of the economic environment. even his optimistic reading is really not all that great--stagnant home prices is, it seems, the best possible outcome.

ultimately only time will tell. but as someone who recently moved to aus from overseas i have to say, the housing market still looks totally crazy to me.

Holy crap. Did you just use half your lunch break to write that :D

Good attempt.

I gotta get back to work .
 
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