Leaking pressure valve - Who pays?

[pulse]

Hey guys,

My dad just got an email from his tenants via the agent asking for $2000 in electricity wasted by a leaking hot water system valve. The valve has been replaced now.

They didn't send copies of the bills and said that they would stop paying rent if dad does not pay. They also said they had heard a water sound for a while and thought it was a TV next door.

They have been good tenants for 4 years.

As I see it:
1. Dad needs copies of the bills before it goes any further.
2. Paying them some money makes life easier and saves costs associated with finding new tenants.
3. They must keep paying rent or can be evicted.. until some agreement is arranged.

Questions:
anyone tried pleading with the power company?
what is fair here... how much responibility rests with the tenants... how long would you allow them to notice the leak?


Cheers
Pulse

 

[toony]

Tough one. I would speak to the Power Company before I gave any money back to the tenants. But as its your valve they will do nothing probably.

I would get copies of the bills. My gut feel is the tenants should have noticed earlier. They are responsible for bills. If they were concerned they should have raised it earlier. I think you did all that was reasonable ie, you replaced the part as soon as it was brought to your attention.

 

[Dazz]

These are normally really easy to answer.....if it's a house....99% of all things are the responsibility of the Landlord. Check the RTA - it's a most marvellous one-sided document.

Real nice of the tenants to threaten not to pay rent if the landlord doesn't pay to fix the root problem, and then pay again to 're-imburse' the bill. I think they've already concluded in their own mind whose responsibility it is to pay. Trying to convince them otherwise once they have dug into that position and volleyed off a direct threat to sure up their position is going to be pretty tough if you don't have your wits about you.

Everyone can jump up and down and put their little lawyer hat on, with the ol' "you can do this and can't do that", but if you have tenants who refuse to pay the bill....and refuse to pay rent, then I'd say that little cashbox on a bit of dirt has just turned pretty ugly. Especially if they refuse to move and refuse to pay rent....a residential Landlord's "so what stick" is usually pretty small and puny.

The Landlord in your particular case may indeed be 'in the right', but that doesn't help one iota if the tenant "feels" they are being ripped off and decides not to play the proper little cashflow game. Despite whatever is written in the Lease contract, I've found most residential tenants are not used to dealing with legal contracts and rarely uphold their full responsibilities. When the brown hits the fan, it's usually the first document tossed out the window and all of these "It's not right" and "I feel like it's wrong so we aren't paying" all very quickly come to the surface. To rectify this attitude usually takes many months and many frustrating letters to get something thru the tribunal....and even then you're not guaranteed of getting all the cash returned

OTOH, I could have it all wrong and your father maybe very happy to pay for everything, just as long as no-one gets angry or upset.....after all, that's what running a profitable business is all about.

Who knows, there may be another thread started up in a coupla days by your Dad's tenants, about some big bad nasty Landlord who is trying to screw the hapless tenants for thousands of dollars, all because he didn't fix something he was responsible for, and what advice would the forum give to really stick it up the Landlord.......

 

[mitch]

l think their very aggressive approach and threats deserve an equally strong responce.

lf the're such great tennants one would think they would have used a slightly less confrontional approach to this problem and l think you should respond with the same attitude.

Notice to vacate , you and your " im not going to pay the rent if you dont do what your told " attitude can hit the road and if you feel that you can be a little more civil then perhaps we can talk.

If the case is that once the problem was reported it was delt with , perhaps the big power bill is their responsability.

Its not going to cost a couple of grand to locate new tennants.

 

[wylie]

We had a tenant who refused to pay rent until we had our water tested. They just stopped paying rent. There had been constant issues with these tenants and we wanted them gone. We waited the mandatory time and issued a notice to remedy breach. Waited again, issued the notice to vacate.

We lost maybe a week's rent in the end after the bond was taken into account.

I would agree that if you fixed the problem once THEY told you about it, you have done your part. I would ring the appropriate tenancy association in your state to get their take on it, but I don't think you should wear the cost.

Wylie

 

[tssk]

We've had several issues in the place we're renting. Despite withholding the rent being the only way we could possibly get some action we've decided on other alternatives.

For example, stove ring decayed due to age and needed replacing.

Solution : first tried to find replacement ourselves. Then complained. Waited two months for replacement.

Shower hose broke.

Solution : after three months of bath and complaints going nowhere replaced it ourselves.

Poor toilet seat making possible buyers think we were smokers. (It had burns in it when we started the lease.)

Solution : bought new seat.

And our current one. Broken light fitting in bathroom (we were promised it would be replaced before we moved in. Didn't happen) making potential buyers think we're vandals.

Solution : been told owner will not be spending more money. Will replace ourselves.

I can understand the tenants anger with their electricity bill, however given a competitive market place and the problems a poor reference will bring them I'm guessing they will have to pay up.

 

[wylie]

I can understand why tenants get so angry when things get broken and they wait and wait and wait to get them fixed.

We self manage. Tenant called last week to say the toilet was running. I had a choice of organising hubby to go over there or call a plumber. Hubby said "I have had enough with fixing other people's toilets" so we called our trusty plumber who fixed it that day.

I hear it on this forum all the time that you have to "manager your manager". I would use a manager if I didn't live close, but I really think we do a much better job than many professional managers out there.

It would really fire me up, living somewhere with a broken light fitting for weeks on end, or a dodgy stove, and having to almost beg someone to make it right.

Wylie

 

[tssk]

Well after a few weeks we stopped noticing the broken light fitting, however it's become an issue now as I think most of the potential owners assume we've put a hole in it (it's a cheap nasty plastic one).

Our unwelcome visitors the other day (the potential investors who pushed their way in even though the flat wasn't open for inspection, see 'They're selling our house' thread) after looking at the bathroom asked me what nationality the tenants were.

I'm pretty sure they think we're just grotty tenants.

 

[pulse]

Thanks guys, thanks for the advice I'll pass it on my Dad and see what happens

Cheers
Pulse

 

[Les]

G'day pulse,

I like the way others are thinking:-

My dad just got an email from his tenants via the agent asking for $2000 in electricity wasted by a leaking hot water system valve. The valve has been replaced now.

With my home costing $400 per quarter for electricity (and approx. 35% of that is Hot Water) - this sounds like maybe $140 per quarter (or $560 per year for the average home for hot water).

So, are they saying YOU owe THEM for FOUR YEARS of hot water for a valve that might have started leaking 12 months ago?

If I were your Dad, I'd be wanting to see EVERY ONE of the Electricity bills for the last 4 years before arriving at any conclusion.

They have come up with this figure of $2000 - if they aren't prepared to PROVE that this is what has been lost to them, tell them to take a hike. (Hey, it COULD be valid - but have them PROVE it). If they really are good tenants, they'll do it.

Regards,

 

[Norwester]

Kilo.........what?

2K is a lot of kilowatts of electricity for a HWS.....................even over four years and in those circumstances.

You really need to see those bills and get the claim justified.

Would be really interesting to see the exact basis on how that has been worked out - if you can post the details of the hottie, supply arrangements, tariff and the rate of the leak I'd be happy to check out their calcs for you if required.

May also pay to get the meter checked if it runs on a seperate tariff.

In reagard to the other issues above,my brother in law works for a lot of PM's in Melbourne and when we were having a chat the other day he was mentioning what a pain in the rear end that this sort of work was becoming.

Once it was just go and fix it and send me the bill...............now it's *we need a quote for everything*. 'Cause of this he now refuses to waste his time on quoting single minor jobs and therefore a lot of these are *saved up* until such time as it's economic.

On the flip side he also noted that tenants appear to be much more switched on to their rights than a couple of years ago and are also pushing him a lot harder for *extras* outside of his workscope. One couple actually threatened to sue him if he didn't rebuild the whole balcony of their flat instead of just repairing it as he was instructed.


ciao

Nor

 

[George]

Tough one, but I would say that tenants went off the handle without reason.
If faulty high-pressure valve was reported and repairs delayed there is legitimate merit in compensation.

If faulty valve wasn’t reported, things are bit more difficult.

Morally looks that owner bares responsibility and here I would make a note for myself to talk with PM to include other checks during annual, pre/rental or just special “services” inspection to check: phone, electricity, water, sewage on top of other checks, to keep ahead of trouble in the future.

If there is no clause in contract, that gives tenant right to suspend rent payment, they should be treated with similar contempt.
And appropriate letters sent of notice to pay immediately and later with eviction notice as if there was no other issue.

If tenant decides to be more civilised, than your dad can talk, but such a claim has to be supported with original documents.

Lets not forget that extra water and electricity is used if one has “plantation indoors”.

 

[crest133]

Tenants are responsible for paying the electricity bill even though there was a leak. Landlord is responsible for fixing problems are soon as the landlord becomes aware of them. Pressure relief valves are known to fail and whoever lives at the premises is responsible for keeping an eye out. The landlord doesn't live there.
Good tenants don't refuse to pay rent.
You said these are good tenants, which may be incorrect.
My suggestion is to explain the abovementioned responsibilities to the tenant including paying the rent.
If they cease paying the rent, just proceed as normal like with any other rent defaulter. If the rent arrears matter proceeds to a tribunal, your requests for orders that the tenant pay rent and tenancy termination etc will be heard.
If the tenant wants to request a hearing to ask for orders that the landlord pay some of the hot water bill, the burden of proof rests with the accuser, the tenant, to prove some negligence on the landlords part and substantiate the value of that negligence (not easy).
PMs are individuals and many have their own style. Mine might seem hard but soft property management gets trodden under the stampeding tenants hooves.
cheers
crest133
(back from a long absence).

 

[wylie]

Ditto what crest said. Beautifully said. Would be very interested to hear the outcome when it is all finished with.

Wylie

 

[pulse]

Thanks far all the advice, esp crest,

Dad has offered them a generous $600, but so far they have just continued to pay rent and not got back to him yet about the bill.

Who knows what will happen.. I'll let you know

Pulse

 

[tssk]

I'm a bit surprised at their attitude. Don't they know about tenant blacklists?